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I was at the Prairie Conservation and Endangered Species Conferance PCESC in Calgary A year ago last Febuary. I met Johnathan Proctor the fellow that was pushing the Buffalo Commons. Alberta is alot like western Montana in where they feel they have to exclude cows and protect everything. The conservation community in Sask is much more open to using cows as a conservation tools. That is partly do to the fact that the Stockgrowers provide the chair for the Prairie Conservation Action Plan PCAP. We are hostinng the next PCESC in 2007. It is titled Conservation in a working landscape. Much more typical of the conservation effort is Sask.
 
So you want us there? I was on a tour of feedlots in Alberta and Sask a couple of years ago, the concensus was that canada and the US should of been divided East and West by the Missisippi, not by the 49th as all of the libbies live in the east and all of the real people live in the west (sorry to you from Ohio and Manitoba). My family in Idaho has been pretty much put out of business by the wolves, guess that they did not get any of the good wolves that NR has, they only eat beef, that is after they have put the outfitters out of business, Mom and Dad have elk in their backyard, miles away from the timber, because the wolves push them that far and then quit as they are getting close to the highway and guns. Gee, I wish that we could of kept Clinton and Babbit a few more years
 
Yes if you would like to I will try to keep you and the rest of the board posted on the conference. We are trying to gear it to having more producers there to balance the academics.
 
My friends - This is the kind of blathering, Politically Correct, Left-Wing Liberal Democrat garbage that is being fed to our children in Public Schools and has been for about 60 years, or since just about the end of WWII! It has gotten to the point where our entire existance is under attack and threatened with extinction - and I am not talking about the Wolves! I am talking about the adoration and mis-guided glorification of the Trees, and ALL animals, the Living Oblation of The Helpless and Downtrodden - from bugs to worms to cows and wolves and, of course, the CHEEOLDREN and the POOOOR and those UNFORTUNATES who can't (or WON'T) take care of themselves which obligates the rest of us to empty our pockets in taxes for the LIBERAL GIVE-AWAY SCHEMES and programs! This is the krap that :twisted: disagreeable :twisted: spews out of her mouth and sucks all the unwary right along with her!

sw is right! The only way to defeat this kind of $^&*(%$#^&#$%^& is to not cave in to that kind of rhetoric and bull pucky and stick together on principle! I agree with Northern Rancher. To get as angry as I am right now and ANSWER this sewage is what they want, and someone will have to "defend" a law suit. But to know that this is what is happening to our country is ammunition for defense.

DON'T GET ME STARTED! And this - - -stuff- - -REALLY DOES GET ME STARTED!

DOC HARRIS
 
Geez sw the wolves up here hunt right up to the highways-we see some hit every year and trust me there are plenty of guns around-as for outfitters -we cross wolf tracks every day when were guiding-I think maybe you guys don't have wolves you have 'scapegoats'-like an old indian said here when people were complaining about no moose(BS by the way) -the white man blames the metis-the metis blame the indians-and everybody blames the wolves-I don't know who the wolf is going to blame lol. Nobody is ever going to convince me that a rancher or outfitter was bankrupt soley from wolf predation-I've seen way to much evidance to the contrary-but hey their easy to blame. They did a study on wolf diet in the Prince Albert National Park and in the summer months they're main food source was beaver of all things-this was in a big game rich area.
 
NR,
I think that the wolves do more damage here because the other animals have evolved without them for the last 100 years and now the animals are being pushed into areas that they were not in before. On places where I grew up the deeded land is small 300 acres on average, but the cattle summer on Forest Service allotments high in the mountains. It is remote and hard enough keeping track of the cows without the wolves being there. It is to the point now where people on some of those allotments are coming in in the fall with 10% loses where they would come in 1% before the wolves. My brother quit turning anything out there at all as have some of the neighbors. With all of the subdivisions around the valleys, grass is very hard to find so why own cows. That is the reason they wanted wolves in the first place, to drive the ranchers out so they can go backpacking and not have to worry about stepping in cow pies. They got rid of the loggers and the miners through lawsuits and environmental impact statements, they are using the wolves to get rid of the ranchers and hunters. And I do know two outfitters that just flat gave up because their hunting areas had no game left. You are right, alot of blame is put on the wolves in certain instances when they are not the blame, but in this case, not so. They paid my dad to drive around monitoring the collared wolves for a summer and documenting any kills he found. Mostly he found uncollared wolves when suppossedly every one of them had a collar, and most of the kills he found were of the Hereford and Angus variety. I'll shut up :mad:
 
Doc Harris, I fully agree with you.

In the dentist office last summer, I picked up a RANGER RICK magazine and leafed through it. Before I left there, I convinced the dentist to get rid of that magazine and to cancel the subscription. Nothing but an animal rights agenda. Sickening how they reach our children.
 
DOC HARRIS said:
My friends - This is the kind of blathering, Politically Correct, Left-Wing Liberal Democrat garbage that is being fed to our children in Public Schools and has been for about 60 years, or since just about the end of WWII!
DOC HARRIS
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I am sorry, but you are wrong here. I was born in 1975 and went to school in the 80's and 90's. We were taught about the food chain and that human's were at the top of it. I am a liberal, and most of my liberal beliefs came from disagreeing with what I was taught in school. Since I think it was too conservative, and you think it was too liberal, perhaps it is just write. Liberals, despite popular oppinon, are cabable of independent thought.

I have been reading this thread with interest, trying to give careful consideration to both sides. I think that both sides have several valid points. I'm Liberal, but not a vegetarian. I do have sympathy for animals, I do disagree with animal testing and I do sometimes feel guilty about eating meat. In short, I'm not a 'fundamentalist' on either end of this argument.

If you anyone ever wants to get anywere with this, we really need to stop believing that the other side is brainswashed idiots and give each other the benefit of the doubt that we have 1)minds of our own 2) probably not fully considered the other side and 3) have good and honest motives.

For example, the thought that "faster horses" thinks that teaching children to appreciate and care about wild life is 'sickening' rather gives me the willies. Just because somebody thinks that animals should have rights deosn't make their 'agenda' any more nefariaous than anyone elses. We all have an agenda, but ultimatly we all live on the same planet and we all want what we feel is best for our planet, ourselves and our families. It just so happens that not everyone agrees on what that is.

Being taught to think of animals as something other than food, as something precious and worthwile in there own right, is not something I was taught in school. And frankly, it disturbes me that anyone would think that this was an evil or unworthy goal. Whether animals are for food or not, I am certain that it is not the only reason they exist. If you absolutely can not see that, perhaps you are blinded by the proffit that you have tied to that premis. Which is not at all to say that others are not blinded by their own interests, profits, agendas, perspectives [and lack thereof] what have you.

Each side is only seeing one part of the elephant. The truth is not only in his flesh, or only in his eyes. Nor is it only in the ivory of his tusks. The truth is that calling each other names for seeing the elephant differently is just not productive for either side.
 
Just for your information I happen to love and care for animals much more than you seem to think. If we weren't concerned for them, why would we take such good care of them. We have rabbits, cats, dogs, horses and cows that live in happy, healthy harmony right here thanks to the good care they get from my husband and myself. We couldn't even leave our dogs at home alone because we were going to be gone overnight. They are spoiled rotten. Not because we plan to eat them either. :shock:

I am known for being a bit of an animal rights person myself. I will stand up to anyone that is abusing or starving an animal. Been there, done that. But I don't believe animals have the same rights as human beings. We have elevated animals to "God" status in this country. We can love and care for them without that kind of reverence. It gets overbalanced and is caused from people who truly DO NOT HAVE A CLUE.

bunny_symapthy, I noticed you don't say where you are from. Would you mind posting that? It could explain a lot.
 
Faster horses said:
Just for your information I happen to love and care for animals much more than you seem to think. If we weren't concerned for them, why would we take such good care of them. We have rabbits, cats, dogs, horses and cows that live in happy, healthy harmony right here thanks to the good care they get from my husband and myself. We couldn't even leave our dogs at home alone because we were going to be gone overnight. They are spoiled rotten. Not because we plan to eat them either. :shock:
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LOL. I appologize for assumptions. I'm sorry, I was just going by your reaction to the ranger rick, which seemed rather extreme. Perhaps they do have an animal rights agenda, but I don't think that viewpoint should be sensered(or removed) or considered harmful to children because it does not promote eating creatures.:)

Faster horses said:
I am known for being a bit of an animal rights person myself. I will stand up to anyone that is abusing or starving an animal. Been there, done that. But I don't believe animals have the same rights as human beings. We have elevated animals to "God" status in this country. We can love and care for them without that kind of reverence. It gets overbalanced and is caused from people who truly DO NOT HAVE A CLUE.
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That is something for me to think on. Therefore, I can't comment on it much. Do they have the same rights as human beings? It's not something I personally dismiss out of hand. Would that elevate them to god status? I don't see why it would unless we consider ourselves to be gods. Would elevating animals to god status be bad? Well, now you got me:) I'm a pagan liberal kook;) so this wouldn't be entirely out of the question either. I'm not saying it would, just saying maybe it wouldn't. :lol: It's probably not something that is ever going to have a definative answer, scientifically proven for all to agree on. (few things do)
 
Faster horses said:
bunny_symapthy, I noticed you don't say where you are from. Would you mind posting that? It could explain a lot.
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ps- ahead of time, forgive me for mispelling deer every time, just not used to it.

I'm from Northern Michigan (LP), west side of the state. Part of the nations 'bread basket.' I grew up surrounded by outdoorsmen- fishing, hunting, camping, snowmobiling. The first day of dear season is an un-offical holiday. It's a given from about 5th grade up (or whatever the hunting age is) that half of the class will be absent and considered perfectly acceptable to be out of school for that purpose.:)

Never heard a bad word against hunting from school or any school official my entire life. Enjoyed vesison, particularly BBQ's outdoors- I thought it was the best. Then one day we saw a freind of my mom's in the grocery store parking lot who was excited about his kill and encouraged us all to come over for a look. (Perfectly acceptable to bring your 6/8 year old daughters over to look at a dead animal strapped to the back of someone's truck.) Well, I got over there and looked. The voices of the bragging hunter and his admirers faded into the backgroud. The dear's eyes were open (maybe the story would be different if they were closed). I looked into them and I saw sadness. I did not think that the dead dear was 'beautiful' as the others did, I thought it was incomprehensibly sad.

From then on, I could just not bring myself to eat venison. I started saying "I don't like venison" which nobody understood. ("You used to like venison.") My mother would cook it in chilli and tell me half way through (after asking if I liked it) that it was venison. I don't blame her, she misunderstood my intention. She thought I was just being a picky eater ("ha! you didn't know there were carrots in your meatloaf did you?"). And I was just unable to explain. But I was mad at the time.

[some of you would be laughing at me if you could see me now, tears rolling out of my eyes thinking about it.]

I'm not a vegetarian. I just can't eat a deer. (I"ve never seen Bambi by the way, lol) If I ever in my life look into the eyes of a dead cow, I probably won't ever eat beef again. So you know what? I don't want to look. I'm not perfect, I'd rather turn away. Conversly, dead fish don't touch me the same way. I've fished and have no trouble eating fish.

But my sympathy for (and beliefs about) animals comes from me, not my school system and certainly not my community. (Although I do have one friend so sensitive that she cried for about 10 minutes when she accidentally stepped on a frog! Everyone including her husband laughed at her. :roll: ) I used to own a dog, (when i was a kid) whom I loved very much, but I'm not really sure that domestication is what's best for animals either. I'm not an activist against pet ownership, but I'm not really for it either (other than pets obtained from rescue shelters.)
 
Make no mistake, I have a lot of respect for ranchers and farmers and the hard work that they do. I'd just like to be the small voice for liberal treehuggers, that we are people too. There's a certain amount of country girl in me, but a very soft heart and yes, liberal views on many things, but that doesn't make me evil. And I know that you ranchers are not evil either. Let us hope that we can maintain our own values and views while still respecting each other's. I am enjoying many of the beautiful pictures posted here, and the threads that I am able to understand.;)

Thanks for dinner.:)
 
bunny s., stick around, and maybe we red-stater's can educate you a little. :lol: This is flyover country to be sure, where I am at.
 
bunny_sympathy -

On several of the posts in which I engage, I state, "DON'T GET ME STARTED!" I state that because I have delt with the IDEALISTIC and most often partly or mostly uninformed citizens of our society who have been sub-liminally brain-washed (unfortunately, in your case and others of your 'generation') quite sucessfully by the Social and Liberal Left-Wing Powers which have been at work on this Earth since The Snake in The Garden of Eden, and I have lived long enough (FIFTY - 50 - YEARS longer than you, bunny) to have seen AND experienced many of the stealthy, clandistine and surreptitious acts and deeds which the citizens of the World have been and are being subjected to. The "up- close and personal" events and emotions to which my family and I have been subjected have been enlightening and educational. In My Opinion, most people who have raised a family (I have GRAND Children older than you, bunny!) can recognize the symptoms of Animal Rights Activists and others of the "Tree-Hugging" ilk, and have seen how the Educational System and specific EDUCATORS have manipulated their agendas to their own ends and satisfaction. I think that you can understand why I say "DON'T GET ME STARTED!"

Specifically in regard to this post and your diversion, or Ricochette, from the Primary subject at hand (Wolves), the Secondary subject blatant in you post - "Murdering Animals for Eating" :shock: :mad: :cry: , I refer you to "The Holy Bible", the First Book, Genesis, Chapter Nine, Verses 2 through 4: (God speaking to Noah and his sons -)"The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has it's lifeblood still in it."

Perhaps the balance of this subject should be discussed in the Political section of these posts. Suffice it to say on my part, "I pity those who look but refuse to see!"

DOC HARRIS
 
the real jake said:
bunny s., stick around, and maybe we red-stater's can educate you a little. :lol: This is flyover country to be sure, where I am at.
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arg!!!

I had a reply, but my 'puter froze.


I honestly never heard the term "fly over state" until I heard a conservative radio talk show host accuse me/us of using it. I think they made it up (or exagerated it's usage) to set us all up against each other.

Sure, feel free to teach me, but there's as much you don't know about here as there is that I don't know about there.:)

I'm just a stay-at-home mommy, but I'm a writer and anthropologist at heart, I really like people and enjoy getting to know folks from all walks of life. I hope that we can all learn from each other. Especially that we are all real people, not the characteratures we see in tv or hear about from talk shows.:)
 
DOC HARRIS said:
bunny_sympathy -

On several of the posts in which I engage, I state, "DON'T GET ME STARTED!" I state that because I have delt with the IDEALISTIC and most often partly or mostly uninformed citizens of our society who have been sub-liminally brain-washed (unfortunately, in your case and others of your 'generation') quite sucessfully by the Social and Liberal Left-Wing Powers which have been at work on this Earth since The Snake in The Garden of Eden, and I have lived long enough (FIFTY - 50 - YEARS longer than you, bunny) to have seen AND experienced many of the stealthy, clandistine and surreptitious acts and deeds which the citizens of the World have been and are being subjected to. The "up- close and personal" events and emotions to which my family and I have been subjected have been enlightening and educational. In My Opinion, most people who have raised a family (I have GRAND Children older than you, bunny!) can recognize the symptoms of Animal Rights Activists and others of the "Tree-Hugging" ilk, and have seen how the Educational System and specific EDUCATORS have manipulated their agendas to their own ends and satisfaction. I think that you can understand why I say "DON'T GET ME STARTED!"

Specifically in regard to this post and your diversion, or Ricochette, from the Primary subject at hand (Wolves), the Secondary subject blatant in you post - "Murdering Animals for Eating" :shock: :mad: :cry: , I refer you to "The Holy Bible", the First Book, Genesis, Chapter Nine, Verses 2 through 4: (God speaking to Noah and his sons -)"The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has it's lifeblood still in it."

Perhaps the balance of this subject should be discussed in the Political section of these posts. Suffice it to say on my part, "I pity those who look but refuse to see!"

DOC HARRIS
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I respect that wisdom and understanding come with age, but I feel very dismissed by your post. I also recognize that you are very passionate about the topic at hand, and I can also respect that. Although you have lived 50 years longer than me, how many years have you lived in my city, my state, my body or attending my schools? Although I am young my experiences and oppinions still have value. I don't much appreciate being called subliminally brainwashed anymore than if I were to say it about you and your religious beliefs which I am sure that you have been fed and raised on since birth. I assure you, I am a questioner of all things and I do not accept blindly what is told to me by liberals or conservatives, by church members, family members, athiests, agnostics, pagans, jews or christians. I accept that wisdom and knowledge can come from all corners, but absolute truth is in none of them. It's not that I don't beleive in Absolute Truth, but I don't beleive that human's are cabable of comprehending it- at least not in our present form. Maybe when the Lord takes us all up into Glory, we will know and understand absolute truth, but until then the young and old alike are less than perfect in understanding, and all are capable of being decieved.

If you want to take my comments with a grain of salt, considering that I am such a babe in the woods, that is all fine and dandy, but please don't dismiss me out of hand. I stated my age to show when my education took place and to point out that my formal education did indeed teach me that human's are at the top of the food-chain and that meat was an important part of one's diet. Perhaps you can not believe that because it interfere's with your conspiracy theory, but what can I do? I tried to show you my truth, but you reject it because I am too young to know any better. To young to even know that my thoughts are not my own. :(
 
Let's see, what else was I taught in school-

"Socialism never works"

"Communism is Evil"

"We are the good guys."

"We defeated the Indians (but now they like to be called Native Americans) through superior firepower and because they were simple superstitious child like trusting people who though that we were gods and didn't understand property rights."

"Pioners where rugged individualists"

"America is the melting pot."

"People from all over the world want to come to America to be free."

"America is the best darn country in the world."

"Democracy is the best most godly system of government, invented in America, by Americans for America. Democracy is good. All other forms of government are evil or just not as good."

And on the list goes. Quite the liberal education, I would say.
 
I'm sort of intrigued how you stumbled upon ranchers.net, bunny. I've looked around, and this is pretty much the best agricultural board I've found. With other ones, people post something and it takes weeks for someone to respond, then the thread goes flat. Here, people are constantly discussing throughout the day, and reading their correspondence can be really illuminating. (Well, except for Disagreeable, who is perhaps the most single-minded, repetitive person in the world.) When I first stumbled on ranchers.net, there's no way I would've believed that I'd still be posting here five months later. Don't say I didn't warn you... :wink:
 

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