Withdrawal

[RoperAB]

I sure agree that we all<liberals-conservatives-democrats-republicans> should be united during this war and not be trying to use it for political gain.
about the political posturing
Apparently Briton and Australia are cutting and running from Iraq :???: .
I dont know what to think. Maybe Jr wants out of there to because if he is going to need more troops to send over there he is going to be even more unpopular at home.
Just my two cents but this is serious stuff. When we go to war it should be an all out effort. Trying to make do on half measures ends up costing us unecessary casualties.

 

[Disagreeable]

I sure agree that we all<liberals-conservatives-democrats-republicans> should be united during this war and not be trying to use it for political gain.
about the political posturing
Apparently Briton and Australia are cutting and running from Iraq :???: .
I dont know what to think. Maybe Jr wants out of there to because if he is going to need more troops to send over there he is going to be even more unpopular at home.
Just my two cents but this is serious stuff. When we go to war it should be an all out effort. Trying to make do on half measures ends up costing us unecessary casualties.

Yes, Britain has quietly been downsizing their troop committment there. I hadn't heard about Australia. But when the Brits announced they were turning security over to the Iraqis, the Japanese government announced they were bringing their troops home. Apparently they don't trust the Iraqi Army. I wonder why. The US is almost alone in Iraq. Maybe that's why the Iraq government is trying to reach out to the insurgents.

War is serious stuff. You don't send young men and women out to die on a hunch. And Bush did that. The arrogant bunch running this war thought they could have a neat little clean quick war, knock over Saddam and install a government friendly to the US on the cheap. They ignored professional military advice and went in undermanned, without a plan for after the war. And look where it's got us. Now it's a very expensive war, in terms of lives and money. And you know what? Not a single person has been held accountable for the mistakes made! Not a single one! And no Bush supporter on this board even cares.

 

[RoperAB]

In all fairness I dont know of any countries who make plans for reconstruction before they go to war. Example The Marshal Plan for Europe.

 

[kolanuraven]

You gotta admit that this whole thing went wrong FAST.

Remember Dick Cheney saying that the people of Iraq would greet us ( USA)by throwing flowers at the ' liberators'.

Yeah....instead they're throwing bombs.

I mean it's simple....what would YOU do if something/someone foreign invaded your country??? Forget the leader of your country is a SOB....that goes on the back burner in the mind at that moment.

We'd probably do about the same thing here if we were invaded the same way we invaded Iraq. It's hindsite now...but the AFTER part was not thought through at all.

 

[BBJ]

You gotta admit that this whole thing went wrong FAST.

Remember Dick Cheney saying that the people of Iraq would greet us ( USA)by throwing flowers at the ' liberators'.

Yeah....instead they're throwing bombs.

I mean it's simple....what would YOU do if something/someone foreign invaded your country??? Forget the leader of your country is a SOB....that goes on the back burner in the mind at that moment.

We'd probably do about the same thing here if we were invaded the same way we invaded Iraq. It's hindsite now...but the AFTER part was not thought through at all.

You have brought this up before and I avoided it but I must ask now...... Are you saying that if "YOU" were in the position of the Iraqi people, but here in the U.S., and another country came in to rid the earth of the dictator that raped your sister, beheaded your father, and killed your neighbor, that "YOU" would be attacking them? Now I agree that "IF" today we were invaded by lets say "{insert country of your choice}" just to be taken over then YES I would be fighting back but your comparison is not apples to apples here. Maybe I just didn't understand your post but I took it as you would be one of the "insurgents".

 

[Econ101]

You gotta admit that this whole thing went wrong FAST.

Remember Dick Cheney saying that the people of Iraq would greet us ( USA)by throwing flowers at the ' liberators'.

Yeah....instead they're throwing bombs.

I mean it's simple....what would YOU do if something/someone foreign invaded your country??? Forget the leader of your country is a SOB....that goes on the back burner in the mind at that moment.

We'd probably do about the same thing here if we were invaded the same way we invaded Iraq. It's hindsite now...but the AFTER part was not thought through at all.

You have brought this up before and I avoided it but I must ask now...... Are you saying that if "YOU" were in the position of the Iraqi people, but here in the U.S., and another country came in to rid the earth of the dictator that raped your sister, beheaded your father, and killed your neighbor, that "YOU" would be attacking them? Now I agree that "IF" today we were invaded by lets say "{insert country of your choice}" just to be taken over then YES I would be fighting back but your comparison is not apples to apples here. Maybe I just didn't understand your post but I took it as you would be one of the "insurgents".

If the tables were turned and we were Iraq instead of the U.S., and they overstayed their welcome, we might all be the insurgents. This is a civil war and the U.S. can not win it for either side. They must win the peace themsleves.

FACTBOX-Military and civilian deaths in Iraq
27 Jun 2006 12:19:14 GMT
Source: Reuters
Printable view | Email this article | RSS XML [-] Text [+]

June 27 (Reuters) - A U.S. Marine died from wounds sustained in a military operation in Anbar Province, the U.S. military said on Tuesday.

A U.S. soldier died from wounds sustained in a bombing during a dismounted patrol south of Baghdad, the military said.

A U.S. Marine died on Monday after combat in Anbar province, the U.S. military said.

The following are the latest figures for military deaths in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003:

r U.S.-LED COALITION FORCES:

United States 2,524

Britain 113

Other nations 113

IRAQIS:

MILITARY Between 4,895 and 6,370#

CIVILIANS Between 38,475 and 42,889*

# = Think-tank estimates for military under Saddam Hussein killed during the 2003 war. No reliable official figures have been issued since new security forces were set up in late 2003.

* = From www.iraqbodycount.net, run by academics and peace activists, based on reports from at least two media sources. The IBC says on its Web site the figure underestimates the true number of casualties.

with other estimates of civilian deaths around 100,000:

The estimate is based on a September door-to-door survey of 988 Iraqi households -- containing 7,868 people in 33 neighborhoods -- selected to provide a representative sampling. Two survey teams gathered detailed information about the date, cause and circumstances of any deaths in the 14.6 months before the invasion and the 17.8 months after it, documenting the fatalities with death certificates in most cases.

The project was designed by Les Roberts and Gilbert M. Burnham of the Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore; Richard Garfield of Columbia University in New York; and Riyadh Lafta and Jamal Kudhairi of Baghdad's Al-Mustansiriya University College of Medicine.

Based on the number of Iraqi fatalities recorded by the survey teams, the researchers calculated that the death rate since the invasion had increased from 5 percent annually to 7.9 percent. That works out to an excess of about 100,000 deaths since the war, the researchers reported in a paper released early by the Lancet, a British medical journal.

The researchers called their estimate conservative because they excluded deaths in Fallujah, a city west of Baghdad that has been the scene of particularly intense fighting and has accounted for a disproportionately large number of deaths in the survey.

"We are quite confident that there's been somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 deaths, but it could be much higher," Roberts said.

Based on these numbers, it would correlate to 10 times that in U.S. population.

Given these circumstances we might all be insurgents if an invader looked like they were overstaying their welcome. Winning the peace is always harder than winning the war. Not decimating the elite forces in Gulf War I, the republican guard, probably did not help any here.

War is He.... and should always be the last resort. Then overwhelming force should be used.

Both of those items are credibly argued by the democrats. These arguments don't make our country weaker, they make our country wiser. Strength without wisdom is a misuse of resources. Another argument the democrats have correct.

 

[kolanuraven]

BBJ...YOU would NOT turn on the so called " invader"??

I would....

Are you saying you would not fight against someone who invaded your land/home/life for reasons THEY thought were legit?????

IF someone invades your "space" you're not thinking about the leader of the country/gov't/ etc....you're concerned about your own backside @ that moment in history!

 

[BBJ]

BBJ...YOU would NOT turn on the so called " invader"??

I would....

Are you saying you would not fight against someone who invaded your land/home/life for reasons THEY thought were legit?????

IF someone invades your "space" you're not thinking about the leader of the country/gov't/ etc....you're concerned about your own backside @ that moment in history!

As I suspected you missed it. IF the invader was in "my space" trying to take what was mine, then He!! yes, the fight would be on. Now if the "invader" as you put it were there to overthrow the evil Bush dynasty :lol: and save me, my freinds, family and neighbors from torture, death and depression then why fight them. :???: :? :???: They are there to help you. If we were going in there to make it US territory and a summer resort for American tourist then thats a different story, but we are rebuilding their Country for them, we have YET to take anything. Well besides their beloved saddam.\ :wink:


Thats like saying your house is on fire, burning down around you, and you turn against the fireman thats coming in to "your space" to put out the flames and carry your but out to safety.

Your term of invader needs some work.

By saying YOU WOULD is linking you to the insurgents that are killing our brave men and women. WAY TO GO!

 

[Econ101]

BBJ, this is exactly why you have to win with overwhelming force and fill all power vacuums before they are filled for you.

We don't need foreign invaders to get rid of Bush. He is not 1/100th (or more) as bad as Saddam Hussein but he hasn't upheld the values in the constitution as well as he should have. There is a big difference here between him and Ronald Reagan. Besides we have our own system of getting rid of him. Saddam suppressed that system in his own land and hence the poeple needed our help to get him out. We still could have gone about it better.

 

[BBJ]

BBJ, this is exactly why you have to win with overwhelming force and fill all power vacuums before they are filled for you.

We don't need foreign invaders to get rid of Bush. He is not 1/100th (or more) as bad as Saddam Hussein but he hasn't upheld the values in the constitution as well as he should have. There is a big difference here between him and Ronald Reagan. Besides we have our own system of getting rid of him. Saddam suppressed that system in his own land and hence the poeple needed our help to get him out. We still could have gone about it better.

I agree that to win it has to be by TOTAL VICTORY and destruction if necesssary!


Oh and I hope you didn't misunderstand my reference to President Bush, I think he has done a good job given the circumstances. :clap:

Nobody is perfect and to expect perfection from a politician dem or Rep, is crazy. You can't please everybody all the time. I just refered to him because some on here think he is akin to saddam.

 

[kolanuraven]

BBJ....quit nit pickin'

Oh yeah...I support the insurgents....by sending about $300/month in goodies to our soldiers....yeah you're right on the $$$$ with that one !!! Geezzz...has MENSA returned your call???? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Pleeeeeezzzzeeee...you know EXACTLY what I mean. You're wanting to start a fight....not with me....not today.

Good try though...you haven't lost yer touch!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

P.S. Remember way back when....your beloved Bush said he wasn't into nation building....hmmmmmm...

As far as ' taking' things....I vote for ' taking' some of that oil as payment on our services for rebuilding their world for them.