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Young Horse Attitude

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mtn_90

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I've got a young gelding I've been riding for about a month now. He's been coming along quick and nice. Because of rain (downpours and flash flooding) I let him sit for about a week and a half. Over the weekend, I vaccinated him and he went baazerk...to the point of striking at me and the vet.
Make a long story short. Tried to saddle him on Tuesday to go check fence and he wanted no part of it. Ended up going back to hobbles. Finally got him saddled, climbed on (same gear as before) and he went to pitchin. Got him under control and everything went good after that. Yesterday, I went to saddle him again...same story, except this time he bunched himself up and lunged at me with the hobbles on. Ears not laid back or anthing, just lunged at me twice.

Anyone ever hear of a horse just lose it like this after getting vaccinated? The vet said nothing in it should make him act this way...or did it just jar an already loose screw?

Appreciate any feedback.
 

Kate/wy

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try tying a rope in the center of the front hobbles and let it drag behind the horse, and then approach him again. He should throw himself on the ground and stop that bs.
 

George

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I doubt the vacination has any thing to do with the change in attitude. I had one colt about ten years ago that was a great ride unless you relaxed and then off you went. I figured I just could not put a handle on him and shipped him to two different "Professional trainers" and he ended up going to the rodeo string. One of the nicest horeses to be around - - - but he had a buck in him that made him a good living - - - If he saw you carrying a saddle he would come up in an open field and stand quietly to be saddled and walk trot and canter like a pro, but just you relax and he would go into one of the worst bucking fits I have ever been around - - then when he got you off he would come up to you looking to be petted! I don't know if it had anything to do with it but he never dropped and had to be cut on the table at Purdue - - - I thought he might have had a reaction to being put out but he never got over it.
 

Northern Rancher

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I had a young mare a few years ago that was a people lover would just about halter herself-I left her at a buddies for a week one time cause I had to brand there-I went to get her and he had a square pen with a frothy sweat on trying to catch her-she was never the same fter that-she's still a bit of a challenge to catch.
 

Jinglebob

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Maybe your horse has "mad horse sickness" Kind'a like mad cow only in horses! :shock:

Seriously, I've found that horses are a lot like people. Sometimes something just clicks inside and they can change. He might get better in time. In his mind he probably thinks he has to defend himself.

According to the Dorrances and Ray Hunt, the horse is never wrong. They are just trying to survive. Get a good proffesionel to check him out. And I mean a good one who people you trust speak highly of and not some "wannabe" who thinks they are a trainer. It will be worth the cost.
 

EJ

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Obviously some thing set him off. Sometimes if you check them up both directions till he starts a sweat he will give you his undivided attention. There are other little "tricks", but maybe the best solution is as Jinglebob said, "Find a GOOD trainer". I might add one that rides outside.
 

PPRM

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I think the act of vaccinating had everything to do with it and th vaccine nothing.


Something I have learned is we get these horses "sacked out", but we too often have no appreciation for how they see things. Two things I have learned are getting a horse used to switching eyes and the second hand deal. These both will caus huge blowups later if they aren't part of the original foundation.

i put quotes around sacked out, because it has tons of connotaions, good and bad. By it I mean the ground work done to gain the horses trust that the things you are going to approach him with will do no harm. Pick your method, I have my own, not the end all one for sure or the holy grail.

By switchin eyes, horses seem to have to learn to trust seeig something disappear from one eye and picked up in the other. That's why I take the lead rope over the back, will help them not freak at your leg goin over the back later.

The second hand deal is something I picked up that I really don't hear guys talk about. It occured to me when I would have pretty gentle colts going to get trimmed. I could pick feet up, but when shoer carried rasp, they would freak a bit. I started noticing I could go up to these colts, pet them, but if I brought second hand towards them, they'd pull around like, "Hey, what's going on here." I have found that if I spend a little time working on this, gaining some more trust, I don't get the issues.

Having said this, your colts first experience with the second hand coming at him was traumatic. You have a longer road to go. Work with him and he needs to learn that fighting it won't accomplish anything. He needs to learn that the second hand isn't something to fear.

By the way, I have no shingle, don't ride other peoples horse and don't have anything to sell. One of these hotshot clinicians would sell some phony aid or book and make a good livin just marketing this one concept, What a racket when you sell common sense, lol,


PPRM
 

EJ

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A couple of years ago we stopped at a trainer near Ellendale Minn.
His name was Buck Wheeler orginally from Ft Yates ND. He was useing a stablizer on some real hot horses. When the endoferens kicked in they would spray them down with water. The hotbloods were at that point docile and easy to handle.
 

kevin

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hate to say it and i aint being a smarty. but i own a honda. and i know it just aint the same but it the only attitude it has is the one sitting in the seat. and i aint trying to to stir up anything just letting you i had a bad experience on a horse got throwed and stepped on if i never get on a horse agin i wont have hurt feelings.
 

Big Muddy rancher

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kevin said:
hate to say it and i aint being a smarty. but i own a honda. and i know it just aint the same but it the only attitude it has is the one sitting in the seat. and i aint trying to to stir up anything just letting you i had a bad experience on a horse got throwed and stepped on if i never get on a horse agin i wont have hurt feelings.

Kevin what are you going to do when that Honda throws you? Walk, don't sprain your ankle or might might never get out of bed again.
I have been broke up more on bikes ect then horses and i ride horse four wheelers and altho I broke my ankle walking down a hill i still do that to.
 

George

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I feel there are places where horses are the best answer, however a 4 wheeler works better for many chores such as building fence and a 2 wheeler works great in open pastures.

When working cattle close up nothing can compare to a good horse. If you train the animal right many of them seem to enjoy :D their work and can put "cow sense" into the job that a machine can't do. I know many people who hook calves from a 4 wheeler :cry: but I'm into that.

Nothing makes me smile more than watching a young colt cut a calf out of the herd :D - - - I've only had two that did that and both of them really worked great but they are few and far between. But then I've had several that loved their work. I good horse can be much more than a tool - - he can keep you out of trouble. If the colt you have has potential don't give up on him - - - but then at times you need to decide when to cut your losses and sell him and get a better animal- - - horses can be great but remember you are not married to them and it is not a sin to get rid of a problem.
 

mtn_90

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Thanks for all the replies...been so busy haven't had time to get on here til now. I think the vet thing had a lot to do with it...never gave it a thought until after I posted, but when I had him cut, the anesthesia didn't set well with him at all...in fact, the vet was getting a little concerned that he wasn't going to come out of it at all. He finally did, but it was a little hary for awhile with him.

Maybe he was remembering that and had a flashback? I don't know. I've thought of taking him to a trainer I know who's real good with horses...spoken very highly of around here and I've seen his work. Real good. I'm going to run it by him and let him take the horse for a week or so and see if he can figure it out. If not, he'll go down the road. I have too many good horses to keep one around that wants to wreck me when I want to saddle him. He's kind as can be until the saddle comes out.

Hope the trainer can figure it out and work with him on it.
 

Chuckie

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mtn_90--your last post just reminded me of an old saying: "why would anyone want to try to ride a bull, when there are so many good riding horses around?.... :)

good luck with him--there's lots smarter people than me giving you ideas.
 

mtn_90

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Chuckie: I agree...in fact, I've said that many times to other people...seems I'm kinda stubborn in taking my own advice??? lol
 

Faster horses

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I've been gone on a little trip and this is my first post since I have been back. I love horses and have friends who really understand the mind of the horse. Without contacting them I would tell you to contact the good trainer you spoke of in order to give the horse another chance. Remember, horses are prey animals and they view things differently than we do. I'm sure his survival instinct kicked in, but it is very possible that this won't be hard to correct. Hobbling him and making him stand for saddling WILL NOT be what your trainer friend does, I would bet on it~especially if he is into the new methods of horsmanship. He will probably do some round pen work with him. We had a horse that we couldn't pick up his hind feet. I honestly thought there was something physically wrong with him. But it was a mind thing, as we found out when we enlisted some help from a KNOWLEDGEABLE horse person. He fixed that with round pen work. Didn't take him much more than half an hour.

Not to be critical, but hobbling that horse and making him take what you are dishing out is just another form of mashing and creates no trust or understanding between you and him. Pat Parelli says, "Horses don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."

Using both eyes is a biggie as well. One way to see if a horse is using both eyes is to stand directly behind them. Then move a step or two to the right (there is kind of a 'blind spot' there). If the horse turns his head to the right and looks at you out of the right eye, he is using his right eye. Then step a step or two to the left of center and the same thing should happen if he is using his left eye. IF this horse steps his rear end around in either direction~say you are on the right side and he steps his rear end to the right in order to look at you out of his left eye, he has a problem in that he is not using his right eye. The danger of this is that if you are riding him, or working him and he happens to catch sight of something out of the eye he is not using, all kinds of things can happen and they usually aren't good.

It really is very important that a horse use both eyes and not all do. But they can be trained to use both eyes. It is something all horses should be able to do and is important foundation training. Skip that and it will come back to bite you later on.

Let us know what happens with this horse. Good Luck!!
 

mtn_90

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I understand what you are saying about the hobbles.... Hobbles are not a new thing to him and he actually responded very well before the vet instance to them. I know very well respected trainers that actually use hobbles as a method of teaching a young horse manners and patience.

I don't beat horses, I don't abuse horses (or any other animal for that matter), and I respect how they view the world around them. I work with them on "their" terms, so to speak. But when anger/aggression starts heading my way from the horse when nothing has been done by me to cause it, I have to keep my safety in mind as he can do a lot of damage to me. The hobbles were placed on him because that's what he knows...that's what he connects with something that isn't going to hurt him, but he needs to stand still. It's the way in which he was trained. He's never known hobbles to hurt him or being hurt in while in them. He's also had a tremedous amount of work in the round pen and was coming along very nicely.

That's why I'm so surprised by how his attitude has been since the vet was out. It's bewildering to me that something like that could have such a profound effect on him, especially since I wasn't the one inflicting the "hurt". I will try your suggestions regarding his eyes, and I'm also taking him to that trainer to see if this can be corrected in the round pen. However, this trainer does use hobbles as a training aide.

As Ray Hunt once said, there are two times when you declare war on a horse -- when they bite you and when they kick/strike at you. I hope the trainer can figure out where the aggression is coming from -- I just find it a bit odd with the timing. Thanks for your advice and I will keep you posted.
 

Faster horses

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Ah, yes. Hobbling should be part of a horses education. I misunderstood that they were being used as punishment, or to force a horse into something.

You have an interesting scenerio (for lack of a better word) going on. We have a horse that is really different. He injured his shoulder and we were gone. The people that doctored it approached him in the wrong way; had to tie a foot up to doctor that simple injury. It impacted him for quite some time, although he is over it now. Had they gone about it a little differently we don't think it would have been traumatic to the horse. But on the other hand, this horse needs to get over being so sensitive. He has a BIG BUBBLE and it is easy to get in it. He is so darn nice about a lot of things and very business-like; but reactionary in some instances. Doesn't help one feel real comfortable when riding him. Perhaps in a situation where he got used more, he would be better. We have someone riding him for us now, taking him to some brandings etc. We knew he would be bothered by the goings-on on the ground, and he was, but got over it okay. So guess the jury is still out on this horse. Thing is, we do really like him, but he has to fit our program and we don't ride all day, every day. If he takes more riding than what we have, we will sell him.

Not all horses are good ones, or easy ones it seems, much as we would like them to be. Guess it makes us appreciate the good ones even more.
 

mtn_90

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I know what you mean about handling horses in the wrong way. I had a farrier mistreat one of my horses before I could react. He got kicked off my place and can't set foot back on it. BUT...it's been a long road to getting him back to him trusting that when a foot is up, it doesn't mean he's gonna get whopped up along side the head. Funny how they seem to remember the bad things, but so quickly forget the good things.

I'm hoping he comes around with the trainer because he really is a horse that would fit in here, but, like it's been said, if he isn't going to let this quirk go even when he knows I'm not gonna hurt him, then he needs to go down the road.
 

DOC HARRIS

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mtn_90 said:
I know what you mean about handling horses in the wrong way. I had a farrier mistreat one of my horses before I could react. He got kicked off my place and can't set foot back on it. BUT...it's been a long road to getting him back to him trusting that when a foot is up, it doesn't mean he's gonna get whopped up along side the head. Funny how they seem to remember the bad things, but so quickly forget the good things.

I'm hoping he comes around with the trainer because he really is a horse that would fit in here, but, like it's been said, if he isn't going to let this quirk go even when he knows I'm not gonna hurt him, then he needs to go down the road.
I can empathize with anyone who has had difficulties with a horse (Or MULE!) :shock: . As was mentioned in a precious post, horses are a prey animal - not a predator - and by nature almost EVERYTHING is frightening to them. And, in effect, they have two brains -right and left - and their eyes represent each half of the brain. They can be very calm with an object on the left side of them, and when that same object apppears on the right side - it is a completely different situation and they react in a completely different manner. I have two suggestions - for whatever they are worth: 1) Get a GOOD , professional Trainer to diagnose and TREAT the problem(s) that the horse has. Perhaps he can correct it (them) and perhaps not. If he can - GREAT! If not - 2) Please DO NOT 'saddle' someone else with the same problems. I am sure that you would not appreciate it if you were sold a horse without knowing of it's problems. I hope someone can help your friend, and allow him to to be what he CAN be and enjoy a good life. IMO the horse needs extensive ground and round pen training - and PATIENCE!
 

mtn_90

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Doc:

I am having a very good trainer take him and see if he can figure it out and work it out with him. If not, he will go down the road -- and I wouldn't allow him to be sold to someone without their knowing all about it. I tell it like it is and don't pull any fast ones for the sake of money. If he goes, he'll sell as a loose horse, they'll announce why's he being sold, what he's done, and if someone is dumb enough to try to take him on, they are doing so with their eyes wide open.

But I'm hoping it doesn't come to that. If it does, so be it. It would be a shame because he is well put together, but I want a good mind on him too. I won't settle for one without the other. :?
 

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