Gate problem

[DosArroyos]

I understand it that the guy that has taken out the cattle guard and put up a gate owns the road and the people that are griping about it only have an easement to get to their homes on property behind the public road frontage land . I could very well be wrong,but that's how I understand it.

 

[Older Whiskey]

I understand it that the guy that has taken out the cattle guard and put up a gate owns the road and the people that are griping about it only have an easement to get to their homes on property behind the public road frontage land . I could very well be wrong,but that's how I understand it.

She says the guy that took out the cattle guard does not own the land where the cattle guard was and the gate is now. However this story so far is very confusing. I can't imagine someone removing a cattle guard off someone else's property without permission. If they did, then the sheriff should get involved. That is criminal, not civil. However, since she says the sheriff says it is civil, that indicates to me that the guy does have some kind of legal document to show he had a right to gate the road.

 

[dhannaman]

She says the guy that took out the cattle guard does not own the land where the cattle guard was and the gate is now. However this story so far is very confusing. I can't imagine someone removing a cattle guard off someone else's property without permission. If they did, then the sheriff should get involved. That is criminal, not civil. However, since she says the sheriff says it is civil, that indicates to me that the guy does have some kind of legal document to show he had a right to gate the road.

No the rancher does not have anything showing he can just put up gates wherever, & yes. He did take out a cattle guard. When a dirt road Is continuously traveled on For over 10 years it's called a prescriptive easement . That's the Arizona state law and he obviously doesn't know anything about it. He thinks he can just do anything he wants & everyone is just going to let him. Well I for one not gonna sit here and let him do this I'm pushing back, I am going to file a lawsuit to have all the crap he has going across the road he's impeding the flow of traffic. Here is a couple of pics its a prison gate he has added two more padlocks

 

[DosArroyos]

In Texas if you have not spent any money on the road in order to keep it up then you can not call it a prescriptive easement.Also an assigned easement can not become a prescriptive easement.

Have you ever paid to have the road repaired or even graded?Do you know that when you bought your property that you live on was there an easement to it in that assignment?

 

[Older Whiskey]

Here is an important read that, while it does say that in Arizona, a land owner can cross another land without permission and if they get away with it for 10 years, does have a right to continue, but must meet other criteria such as no other way of access. Also no where does the law say anyone using the road under prescriptive easement, has a right to say if the owner of the road can gate it, but would address locking the gate and denying access. The owner of that land, can divide it into several pastures and put up 15 gates if they want and all using that road, have to comply with shutting the gates after use.

Whether the guy that removed the cattle guard had a legal right, is between the land owner and him. It isn't any other land owners, using the road under prescriptive easements, concern. Also the land owner isn't responsible for maintenance on the road. If it washes out, then that would be tough luck if the owner didn't want to repair it. No one using it under the PE law, has any rights other than passage, using it to get to their property that would be land locked without this access.

I can't imagine anyone buying a place with a road to it, that offers no deeded rights to the buyer.

My suggestion to resolve this problem, is to contact the land owner and all that use it, and talk about getting deeded rights. This would cost everyone but the land owner money, but would make the users property more valuable. I doubt a lawsuit would do any thing but cost you money. You would have to sue the landowner, not the guy that took out the guard. What losses would you sue for? You can still use the road, but it is just inconvenient. I doubt any judge in ranching country, is going to grant a money reward because you have to get out and open a gate. A judge would rule . yes you have a right to use the road, but that is it. Just be thankful you don't have to open 6 gates and they are all barbed wire.

If you owned the property where the guard was removed, you have a case, but without a deeded road agreement, you are at the mercy of the land owner whose land was crossed without legal agreement for the past 30 years.

In short, prescriptive easement under Arizona law, does not give anyone rights or even a voice to demand ungated access. Whether the guy that removed the guard, had any right to do it, is between the land owner and him. Sorry, but free use users cannot demand anything, but use of the road for passage to their place. They cannot demand maintanence or dictate how many gates have to be opened and closed.

https://legalclarity.org/arizona-easement-law-types-creation-and-enforcement/

 

[Older Whiskey]

No the rancher does not have anything showing he can just put up gates wherever, & yes. He did take out a cattle guard. When a dirt road Is continuously traveled on For over 10 years it's called a prescriptive easement . That's the Arizona state law and he obviously doesn't know anything about it. He thinks he can just do anything he wants & everyone is just going to let him. Well I for one not gonna sit here and let him do this I'm pushing back, I am going to file a lawsuit to have all the crap he has going across the road he's impeding the flow of traffic. Here is a couple of pics its a prison gate he has added two more padlocks

I don't see a prison gate, just a ranch gate, and also a gate does not impede the flow of traffic on an unmaintained dirt road crossing a ranch. Claiming a gate impedes the flow of traffic on that road, will go against you. Flow of traffic indicates a continual line of vehicles, not a few now and then.

Inconvenience is different than impeding. Opening a gate is part of ranch life. Granted you may not have wanted any part of ranch life when you bought your home, accessed by this ranch road, but crossing a ranch comes with responsibility and honoring ranch etiquette.

It could be worse. The owner could have cattle taking dirt baths or just standing out in the road with horned bulls that get testy with beeping horns and gunning engines. On more than one occasion, when I tried to drive around such a bull, they put a dent in my pickup or did the old side rub, taking off my mirrors.

If cattle damage your vehicle, you have no recourse, If you damage a cow, that will cost you dearly.

While a cattle guard is convenient, a gate does discourage joy riders from using the road. If they have no business, then getting out to open a gate just to drive down a posted road they have no business, can constitute trespass.

Also Fed Ex and UPS have a right to use the road to deliver, but even they cannot refuse to deliver just because they have to open a gate.

Perhaps the guy installed the cameras to record joy riders. My cousins in Arizona have had trouble in the past with 4 wheelers and Jeep joy riders, as well as explorers, that will cross a cattle guard with a sign posting it as a private road, claiming they didn't see the sign, but won't open a gate, since that shows criminal intent.

https://www.robertdmitchell.com/article/prescriptive-easements/

 

[dhannaman]

I don't see a prison gate, just a ranch gate, and also a gate does not impede the flow of traffic on an unmaintained dirt road crossing a ranch. Claiming a gate impedes the flow of traffic on that road, will go against you. Flow of traffic indicates a continual line of vehicles, not a few now and then.

Inconvenience is different than impeding. Opening a gate is part of ranch life. Granted you may not have wanted any part of ranch life when you bought your home, accessed by this ranch road, but crossing a ranch comes with responsibility and honoring ranch etiquette.

It could be worse. The owner could have cattle taking dirt baths or just standing out in the road with horned bulls that get testy with beeping horns and gunning engines. On more than one occasion, when I tried to drive around such a bull, they put a dent in my pickup or did the old side rub, taking off my mirrors.

If cattle damage your vehicle, you have no recourse, If you damage a cow, that will cost you dearly.

While a cattle guard is convenient, a gate does discourage joy riders from using the road. If they have no business, then getting out to open a gate just to drive down a posted road they have no business, can constitute trespass.

Also Fed Ex and UPS have a right to use the road to deliver, but even they cannot refuse to deliver just because they have to open a gate.

Perhaps the guy installed the cameras to record joy riders. My cousins in Arizona have had trouble in the past with 4 wheelers and Jeep joy riders, as well as explorers, that will cross a cattle guard with a sign posting it as a private road, claiming they didn't see the sign, but won't open a gate, since that shows criminal intent.

https://www.robertdmitchell.com/article/prescriptive-easements/

Ok no one I guess isn't understanding what is going on. 1st this road is not on any ranchers with a herd of cattle. Maybe 20 feet if that. Where he put this prison gate in s. The road on one side of if is state land his land runs maybe 25 yards along side of our road past the gate going either way. The state has land going towards the Rincon mountains that his gate is all you see when going towards that gate going home. There is no cattle playing in mud because there isn't water!!! No joy riders just us property owners that llive past this eye sore. Its not his private drive he lives miles in the other direction from this crap. There is 3 property owners 2 people that rent from one of the owners.

That he did this to. If this is a ranchers gate explain. The six padlocks? & two cameras? This is wrong period he has threatened harassed if we didn't shut the gate that didn't work out like he thought because the sheriffs told him they can't make us shut that gate.. This road is traveled more then every now & then I am going up & down 4 times a day. Its the only way in & out it leads down to the pavement that gets you to the freeway. He is going to have a problem justifying this to a judge He committed a crime when he took out the cattle guard further up from. Where the gate is at.
I appreciate all your feedback trust me I am listening.. But what he is doing its just wrong

 

[Older Whiskey]

Ok no one I guess isn't understanding what is going on. 1st this road is not on any ranchers with a herd of cattle. Maybe 20 feet if that. Where he put this prison gate in s. The road on one side of if is state land his land runs maybe 25 yards along side of our road past the gate going either way. The state has land going towards the Rincon mountains that his gate is all you see when going towards that gate going home. There is no cattle playing in mud because there isn't water!!! No joy riders just us property owners that llive past this eye sore. Its not his private drive he lives miles in the other direction from this crap. There is 3 property owners 2 people that rent from one of the owners.

That he did this to. If this is a ranchers gate explain. The six padlocks? & two cameras? This is wrong period he has threatened harassed if we didn't shut the gate that didn't work out like he thought because the sheriffs told him they can't make us shut that gate.. This road is traveled more then every now & then I am going up & down 4 times a day. Its the only way in & out it leads down to the pavement that gets you to the freeway. He is going to have a problem justifying this to a judge He committed a crime when he took out the cattle guard further up from. Where the gate is at.
I appreciate all your feedback trust me I am listening.. But what he is doing its just wrong

Thanks for the explanation, that clarifies several issues.

If he doesn't have livestock, he isn't a rancher, just a property owner. Don't put him in the same category as ranchers on here. I have seen lots of ranch gates with multiple padlocks, usually when only those with keys can open it. Everyone has their own key. Cameras are not that uncommon these days, but I would agree, he has no right to install one there if it isn't his property and he doesn't have written permission.

It sound to me like, rather than pursue it civil, since Arizona has a lot of laws about who can sue who in situations like this, I would just open the gate and chain it to the fence. Simply put some duck tape over the cameras. That won't damage them and puts him on the defense.

If he threatened you if you don't close the gate, then file a complaint with the sheriff. That is a crime! It is not a crime for you to chain the gate open, if no livestock are present. I would advise to find the landowner of the property where he removed the cattleguard. That is the person that needs to file a criminal complain with the DA.

Have you discussed this with your local DA? That is the place to file a complaint. The DA will determine if a crime has been committed and direct the sheriff to act.

So the cattle guard was further up than the gate? I hope you took photos of him removing the cattle guard with date and time and everything you can think of that will help the DA take action.

Thanks for the reply, clarifying some of the things that were puzzling. I wish I could see an aerial photo of the area with distances, etc. I enjoy solving disputes as long as I am not involved, hahaha!

If I was for sure it wasn't his land it was on and he didn't have permission, I would remove the gate and set it to the side. If you can find out who owns the land where it is installed, then get permission from them to remove it. I would duck tape the lens on the cameras. If he did this on public land, then report him to BLM or the State, whoever owns the land.

 

[Older Whiskey]

Read above post if you haven't before this one.

Questions

Is there a fence either side of this gate? If so was it there before and just ungated? Can you show a photo either side of the gate? Maybe get back some distance so we can see the situation.

Was there a fence attached either side of the cattle guard? I am asking because you say the removed cattle guard was in a different location than this gate. If possible take photos of where the cattle guard was. Did he take the cattle guard or leave it on site? If he took it that is theft, but who owns the land where it was removed, is important to know.

I am puzzled why he removed the cattle guard that was in a different location than he installed the gate. What reason did he give for removing it? Can you post a Google map to give us an idea of the location?

How long has this guy owned land in the area? How old is he? Where is he from if new in the area?

How long have you lived there? I am just trying to get a visual of the situation. There is nothing good on TV and I am tired of reading. I use to pretend I was Nancy Drew when I was a kid. I am 75, so maybe I am trying to relive my childhood. haha.

Does the road, the one he gated, the one in your photo, leading up to your place have a name? Do you have the six digit (911) number stakes? If so, where are they located?

Someone has jurisdiction over that road if it been used for 30 years. Who maintains it? Is there any BLM land accessed by this road? Is the land you live on deeded?

 

[Older Whiskey]

@dhannaman I am posting your photo to help me understand how the road in question is located to the gate.

Is that trail looking path going up the mountain, the road or is the road to the left and run along a fence?

Am I correct seeing the gate swings in to the left? Does it rest against the fence when open? Before this gate was there, was there just an opening in the fence? How far does the fence run either side of this gate. It looks like an old sign that request closing the gate. Did he put up everything seen in the gate photo, the poles holding it, etc.? It looks like an old gate. How long ago did he put this gate up?

Please don't call that a prison gate. That is an insult the the fine people that make secure and high quality gates for prisons. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

 

[dhannaman]

He doesn't give any reason why he does anything and the person that the cattle guard property doesn't want to be involved. The cattle guard was put in years before this person purchased his property, & it was on the road that we travel on.

The rancher does have cattle that are miles away from this gate. When going towards this gate he bought the land to the left of the gate. The state has the land on the right of it.there is bar wire where he attached the gate on both sides. He diverted the road to go more on his property because that is where we have to go and open the gate.

Have the documents filled out & filing them tomorrow. We did put up a sign A while back stating that fedx & ups that the gate wasn't Lock he ripped off & told my husband it was vandalism. If he did it again he was going to have him arrested.

 

[dhannaman]

He doesn't give any reason why he does anything and the person that the cattle guard property doesn't want to be involved. The cattle guard was put in years before this person purchased his property, & it was on the road that we travel on.

The rancher does have cattle that are miles away from this gate. When going towards this gate he bought the land to the left of the gate. The state has the land on the right of it.there is bar wire where he attached the gate on both sides. He diverted the road to go more on his property because that is where we have to go and open the gate.

Have the documents filled out & filing them tomorrow. We did put up a sign A while back stating that fedx & ups that the gate wasn't Lock he ripped off & told my husband it was vandalism. If he did it again he was going to have him arrested.

This gate has been there since April & yes this gate is rusty & dirty those signs are ridiculous he ripped up all the desert vegetation pushed in a big pile it looks terrible.

 

[dhannaman]

Here is an important read that, while it does say that in Arizona, a land owner can cross another land without permission and if they get away with it for 10 years, does have a right to continue, but must meet other criteria such as no other way of access. Also no where does the law say anyone using the road under prescriptive easement, has a right to say if the owner of the road can gate it, but would address locking the gate and denying access. The owner of that land, can divide it into several pastures and put up 15 gates if they want and all using that road, have to comply with shutting the gates after use.

Whether the guy that removed the cattle guard had a legal right, is between the land owner and him. It isn't any other land owners, using the road under prescriptive easements, concern. Also the land owner isn't responsible for maintenance on the road. If it washes out, then that would be tough luck if the owner didn't want to repair it. No one using it under the PE law, has any rights other than passage, using it to get to their property that would be land locked without this access.

I can't imagine anyone buying a place with a road to it, that offers no deeded rights to the buyer.

My suggestion to resolve this problem, is to contact the land owner and all that use it, and talk about getting deeded rights. This would cost everyone but the land owner money, but would make the users property more valuable. I doubt a lawsuit would do any thing but cost you money. You would have to sue the landowner, not the guy that took out the guard. What losses would you sue for? You can still use the road, but it is just inconvenient. I doubt any judge in ranching country, is going to grant a money reward because you have to get out and open a gate. A judge would rule . yes you have a right to use the road, but that is it. Just be thankful you don't have to open 6 gates and they are all barbed wire.

If you owned the property where the guard was removed, you have a case, but without a deeded road agreement, you are at the mercy of the land owner whose land was crossed without legal agreement for the past 30 years.

In short, prescriptive easement under Arizona law, does not give anyone rights or even a voice to demand ungated access. Whether the guy that removed the guard, had any right to do it, is between the land owner and him. Sorry, but free use users cannot demand anything, but use of the road for passage to their place. They cannot demand maintanence or dictate how many gates have to be opened and closed.

https://legalclarity.org/arizona-easement-law-types-creation-and-enforcement/

We do have legal access my husband went through a title company & he has been living on his property for 40+ yrs this guy has only been in this area for a couple of years just a sliver of his property is on part of the road so we are not at his mercy he wishes.

 

[Older Whiskey]

We do have legal access my husband went through a title company & he has been living on his property for 40+ yrs this guy has only been in this area for a couple of years just a sliver of his property is on part of the road so we are not at his mercy he wishes.

If he moved the road from state property, so the gate installation was on his property, then that should be filed as a complaint with the state officials. He had no right to move the road and all that have easement rights on the road need to forget his gate and move the road back where it was and leave it ungated as before. I would take this up with the DA and State Attorney.

I am still not getting a clear picture of what it looked like before the gate install. Did he build fence to block where the road once was? If so, then he is guilty of denying you access except thru his property so he can make the rules. He had no right to change the location of where this long established road meets the public road.

Does the road have a name and as I ask before, where are the 911 stakes installed? Did he move the 911 stakes?

It is important that you get all that have legal easement on this road together and in agreement. I think at best, the judge might rule he has to put the road back the way it was or pay to have it done.

Let us know how this all turns out.

 

[DosArroyos]

I sure hope you get it figured out soon.I don't know how much more whining I can stand.

 

[Older Whiskey]

I sure hope you get it figured out soon.I don't know how much more whining I can stand.

We could request the big city dwelling rodeo cowboy come back with all his whining about tattoos and how nobody wears cowboy hats anymore., if you prefer. :ROFLMAO:

 

[webfoot]

We could request the big city dwelling rodeo cowboy come back with all his whining about tattoos and how nobody wears cowboy hats anymore., if you prefer. :ROFLMAO:

Oh please don't do that!!!!

 

[jodywy]

thought I saw him post just a week or so ago.

 

[dhannaman]

I sure hope you get it figured out soon.I don't know how much more whining I can stand.

Its not whining How would you like someone dictating your life. Having some one watching & knowing your coming & going. Its not any of his business he did all this because people are not having this. He thought everything that he says we were all going to say ok not a problem Everything that he has said has been lies. He wants to be controlling. He had one of the guys that rents a place from the property owners arrested because he said things into the camera rancher said he felt threatened,. So he spent 5 days in jail & then rancher dropped the charges rancher Didn't want to have to go to court wonder why. Didn't want to have to explain on what he done. Don't keep reading if your sick of the whining. I just don't like somebody thinking they can do Whatever they want get away with it they can't.

 

[dhannaman]

In Texas if you have not spent any money on the road in order to keep it up then you can not call it a prescriptive easement.Also an assigned easement can not become a prescriptive easement.

Have you ever paid to have the road repaired or even graded?Do you know that when you bought your property that you live on was there an easement to it in that assignment?

My husband for years maintained this road.when we had a backhoe we were storing it for a friend he has since came & got it. But someone else does it after we get a rain. My husband bought his property before we even met & yes he went through a title company. I will let you all know what happens.