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1100 lbs cows vs 1400 lbs cow

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As I mentioned earlier.......cows weigh 100 lbs more at home than they do when they go through a sale ring. We've weighed them at home many times and it always turns out they weigh 100 lbs more at home.

We have a lot of respect for the ABS rep here and he talked to us once about cow size. What he said made sense. It was that when size goes down, it comes by losing length and frame and therefore weight. We strived for a moderate cow, but like badroute says, moderate in this country isn't 1100#. Some of it is environmentally caused; they get fed too well during the winter, I guess. We did notice a lighter calf at weaning, but it was very acceptable. It's really pretty darn easy to raise a 550 to 575# in this country.
Over 600# and you usually have some exotic-type crossbreeding that comes into play or earlier calving dates.
 
Efficiency is more important than size. Case in point... I bought some regiestered cows on a dispersion. They run here as commercial cows and get no special treatment. Quite a few have fallen out but one old girl is an outlier. I can't wait to sell her in a few years to see what she weighs. I will bet she weighs every bit of 1500-1600 lbs. She weans a great big calf(no where near 50% body weight) but big enough so be sold with all the big steer calves.

Here is my point. She is always big and fat. No ribs sticking out on her ever and is probably a frame size 6-6.5 (big cow) and she does it all with all the same groceries everyone else gets. I have some smaller cows who always look tough. She is just that efficient at turning feed into beef. She would be sold if she ever came open or had any problems but she always calves early and is great, so I could care less what she weighs.

Weight of a cow is really irrelavant to myself and our operation as long as they perform in our system.
 
I feel where the trouble really comes from is stacking the yearling epds.
So many Black Angus cattle have yearling epd's of over 100#. When you keep adding yearling epd's of over 100#, your cattle will continue to get bigger and bigger. If they are 1500# today, what will they be in say, 5 years?

We had some cows, AI sired, born in 1989 out of a performance bull called Betzvold Viking. We had no knowledge of performance breeding vs maternal at that time. Someone had calves out of this bull and we really liked the look of the calves, so we bred some cows to him. We got almost all heifers, which we kept.This was in SW Montana.

In 1993, we moved here to SE Montana and we brought those cows along. One particular cow lost a calf because of nitrate poisioning. I felt it wasn't her fault and we should keep her and not sell her. We did not graft a calf on her so she summered without raising a calf. She got really big and fat.
She didn't breed back and that fall, she weighed 1800# as a cull at the sale!!! :shock:
That scared the heck out of us, because if she had the genetics to do that, so did some of the other cows in our herd. That's when we turned the corner and started buying more moderate bulls with lesser yearling EPD's.
It didn't take long for that to show up in our herd; we no longer had those huge cows, but we didn't have 1100# cows either; we may have lost 20 lbs in weaning weight and I'm not even convinced of that because of years that were dry. Anyway, this is a caution to be careful of stacking yearling performance epds. Especially when you retain heifer calves for replacements.

FWIW and JMHO
 
We don't have scales at home, so I base it off of sale weight. They average between 1150 and 1200. So who knows, maybe they are 100 pounds heavier at home. I should dig out the tickets from the good old days when we sold culls directly to Packerland, that would be interesting. Also, I agree with the efficiency statement.
 
I find this thread very interesting and each contributor has posed some very valid points. I would especially agree with FH about the YW EPD's in Angus cattle--extremely high YW cattle aren't going to produce the kind of females that work very well in most if not all environments. As some have said previously, different environments can maintain different sizes of cows. There is not a one size fits all. I have a certain size of cow that I think works well for my environment. She pays her way here but may not in any number of other places. Ultimately, they have to be profitable to be sustainable and you have to ask yourself...Is the juice worth the squeeze?
 
Do any of you all ever set in a sale barn and watch cows sell? There are more under 1250 than over 1250 in our part of the world....
 
BRG said:
4Diamond said:
Around here it pencils down to how many lbs of calves can you produce per acre...I love 800 lb bred heifers. Big cows are great when you go to sell em and the weigh up but other than that I love a smaller cow. I think more cows = more lbs of calves to sell.
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Please read what I wrote. More cows do = more lbs of calves to sell. But that is only a fraction of the issue.
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I apologize didn't have time to read it all. Caught a couple high points.
 
Nicely written BRG. 4Diamond brought up that cull cows are lighter in his part of the world. I think you have to take your climate into account as well as quality of forage and cattle for that matter. I am a firm believer in tracking land production in a lbs/acre formula, as you said the bigger cattle still win the race in your scenario.
 
I certainly find cows differ in fleshing ability and size when they come from different parts of the province. Here, they really don't have to walk very far for another mouth full of grass.
Something else that is quite noticeable, is sometime feet look great when brought in, however after a couple of years of soft ground, they may be a little long in the toes. Coming from sandy or gravely areas makes quite a difference.
 
This is an interesting and oft debated topic here. What we find in our specific situation is that smaller cows (1150-1250) work really well here. The cows we wind up culling for failing to breed are generally framier and in the 1450+ pound range. More importantly the cows that fail to make the grade here tend to be "too productive". A good (and extreme) example would be heifers we kept off Sitz Alliance with too much milk for the way we do things. Constantly a 1 to 1 1/2 condition scores (1-9) below the rest of the cows and not a lot of backfat to live on.
Most of our mixed farming neighbours have bigger cows than us, and I would too if I was mixed farming and had the extra feed resources.
One of the things I think happens is that we push production and then maybe sneak an extra bale or two to the cows when they look a little tough without accounting for the cost. Over time that adds up and lets cow size sneak up a bunch.
There is a big difference between gross and net and whatever works to get you a net income must be OK.
 
4Diamond said:
Yes climate plays a huge role in cow size and production in my opinion.
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It absolutely does. Cows in TN, FL, or other areas in the south will be and are smaller cows than ones from our area. Lots of the same breeding down there, but the environment will keep them smaller.

This is another reason why I stated that we all need to pay attention to cow shape, keep the middle, muscle, and depth in the cows along with the length.
 
In any situation you have to compare apples to apples. Using the adjusted 205 wieght is the only way to do it. My cows must have a calf with a 205 50% of there wieght at preg check or there going to town. Dont really matter if she is 1100 or 1600.

Just dont expect a small cow to be effiecient if you are feeding her with 1400 pound cows because they will eat just as much. There is way more that goes into the subject of cow size. Efficiency is the main ingredient. I have fed boughten 1000 pound cows more feed than my own 1300 pound cows and they still looked like crap.
 
These are all some excellent points. I don't pretend to have any 1100lb cows, although there is probably a group in our herd that is on the lighter end of 1200. Lots around 1350 to 1450 though.

One other thing to look at is how we raise our replacement heifers. I am a firm believer in letting my heifers grow out on their own and not pushing them over the winter. If anybody has ever fed a heifer for slaughtering for their own use, you will see what I mean. I can get a big frame, fat heifer over winter if I fed her with the fat steers. Same genetics, just management differences make a big difference. I think we can add 100 to 200lbs to our mature cow herd size just by feeding our heifers more over winter. I prefer to give them enough grain so that I have to be in the pen with them each day. Make them fight over how much they get, if you know what I mean.

Our replacements get good hay all winter and then go to grass about 3-4 weeks before breeding. We don't seem have any trouble with them breeding, but I know that I would have trouble selling them in December as breds compared to other heifers that were fed more over winter. I also know that if you are breeding earlier, you may need to move them along more in the winter to keep your conception rates up, but once again, finding animals that thrive in the operation you are running and sticking to your culling will help alleviate this as well.

I am not really saying smaller is better, or for that matter that bigger is better either. I do know that I have some of my smaller cows that can wean the same size of calf as any other cow on our farm. Those are the one's that I want around, but I have never sold a big cow that brings in a big calf just because she was "TO Big" either.
 
One of the best threads I have read. To me, absolute cow weight is irrelevant. What age, what month and what feed year was that weight?

My feeling is a lot of guys who think they have 1100 pound cows here have not weighed them. Also, I am on irrigated pasture. My cows weigh up a bit different.

I Was thinking "Breed efficiency into your cows no matter what size" as I started to read. Low and behold, many of you already had the same idea.

I'll never forget a guy wanting to sell what I thought was his best cow. She was about 150 pound bigger than the rest. He calf was also 100 pounds bigger than every other one. At branding, she was always highly interested in her calf. However, she never took anyone. But the owner didn't like it. I actually loved it. If She worries about her calf, i likely won't have to.

I think the weight thing is too easy and a lazy way. What are her calves doing and is she rebreeding with the resources you have to deal with?
 
I really like this thread . but I have a couple questions on every ones weaning weights what is your avg age of calves at weaning 180 days or 205?I'd guess my cows avg 1300 # I have very few weigh 1100 and a few weigh 1500 that's with them in there working clothes. this year the first calf was born on feb 22 and the last one on March 28 . weather permitting I hope to wean next week and If I take a educated guess they will avg 475 500# at roughly at 180days. that is n't no were near 50% of the cows body weight . I look at it as 180 days x 2 lbs a day is 360#s 80# birth weight 480# seems to me cow is doing her job if she breeds back good or bad just trying to put things in perspective so I can compare apples to apples.
 
scout said:
I really like this thread . but I have a couple questions on every ones weaning weights what is your avg age of calves at weaning 180 days or 205?I'd guess my cows avg 1300 # I have very few weigh 1100 and a few weigh 1500 that's with them in there working clothes. this year the first calf was born on feb 22 and the last one on March 28 . weather permitting I hope to wean next week and If I take a educated guess they will avg 475 500# at roughly at 180days. that is n't no were near 50% of the cows body weight . I look at it as 180 days x 2 lbs a day is 360#s 80# birth weight 480# seems to me cow is doing her job if she breeds back good or bad just trying to put things in perspective so I can compare apples to apples.
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Good point, glad you brought it up. These cows start mid-february until the first of april, average birthdate is march 1. The steers are contracted for late-september delivery @580#. Figuring shrink, I am hopeful they will be 590-600. In the past we sold two weeks later, in mid-october, and they would typically weigh around 625, but decided it was nicer to put extra weight back onto the cows going into winter, save grass during ongoing drought, and most importantly, start our fall vacation sooner :D .
 
scout said:
I really like this thread . but I have a couple questions on every ones weaning weights what is your avg age of calves at weaning 180 days or 205?I'd guess my cows avg 1300 # I have very few weigh 1100 and a few weigh 1500 that's with them in there working clothes. this year the first calf was born on feb 22 and the last one on March 28 . weather permitting I hope to wean next week and If I take a educated guess they will avg 475 500# at roughly at 180days. that is n't no were near 50% of the cows body weight . I look at it as 180 days x 2 lbs a day is 360#s 80# birth weight 480# seems to me cow is doing her job if she breeds back good or bad just trying to put things in perspective so I can compare apples to apples.
Click to expand...

Our calves will get weaned and sold in that 220 day range. Usually they get weighed around 205 days, sometimes more sometimes less. I expect the steers will gain around 2.4-2.5 lbs a day on average. So that is about 530+90 lbs of BW is about 620 lbs when we wean. Heifers will be slightly below that. Our cows are in that 1200-1300 lb range for the most part.

2lbs a day is my cut off point for the cows if she can't produce better than that she doesn't stick around here. Heifers I give a little more slack to.
 

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