Acute vitamin B Deficiency Caused by ???

[Sir Loin]

Acute vitamin B Deficiency Caused by??
by Runaway Deere » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:46 pm

mind you this steer has been down 4 whole days.
Snip
some extra vit B. Steer is now doing great, we figured out he had Polioencephalomalacia.

AKA PEM & polio.
Source: http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=73932&sid=93065eea84a5a4ee4c23098b4094022b

here is the link to the Merck manual
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... 102000.htm

The Merck Veterinarian Manual

Polioencephalomalacia (PEM) is an important neurologic disease of ruminants that is seen worldwide. Cattle, sheep, goats, deer, and camelids are affected. The term PEM denotes a lesion with certain gross and microscopic features that are not specific for a particular etiology or pathogenesis. Historically, PEM has been associated with altered thiamine status, but more recently an association with high sulfur intake has been observed.
FYI: That “but more recently an association with high sulfur intake has been observed” can be the result of feeding Ethanol corn gluten ( now AKA distillers grain ) to either the momma before the calf was born or to him after he was born.
IMO extreme caution should be taken when feeding corn gluten.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Here are two photos of a calf born with both eyes white, from a momma who was feed corn gluten.
Another sign is a white line at the hair line on the foot.
It looks just like the line caused by Fescue fungus.
SL

 

[Just Ranchin]

Watch your sulfur levels. Test your water right now for sulfates and make sure anything high in sulfur (distillers grains, canola meal) is taken out of the diet immediately.

 

[Sir Loin]

Just Ranchin
Sorry I didn’t mention it, that case was from 05 ? And was found to have been caused by corn gluten (sulfur )toxic poisoning.


Here is another case of what I believe is toxic poisoning ( AKA PEM or polio) from feeding corn gluten AKA distillers grain, as it shows almost all of the signs.
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=73962
SL

 

[VB RANCH]

which is it corn glutin or distillers grain?

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

which is it corn gluten or distillers grain?

It is the by-product from the distillation of Ethanol where they add sulfur to extract the maximum alcohol. It was originally only called “corn gluten” only, but to promote sales they started calling it “distillers grain” and even just “corn byproduct“ .

Note: There are some “distillers grain” and “corn byproduct“ out there that are perfectly safe to use.
I use Jack Daniel's Tennessee Whiskey distillers grain.
So you need to know where it is coming from to know its safe.
This is where corn gluten comes from into my area.

Manufacturer: http://www.tateandlyle.com/Pages/default.aspx
Local distributor: http://www.soyinfocenter.com/HSS/ae_staley_manufacturing.php

SL
Here is a write up from:
Iowa State University
College of Veterinary Medicine
Sulfur Toxicity

http://vetmed.iastate.edu/diagnostic-lab/diagnostic-services/diagnostic-sections/chemistry-/-toxicology/polio-cattle-can-be-ca

Here is another case you might want to read:
If you follow it to the end you will be close to home.
Take my word for it, it did NOT come from the water!
SL
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cows-Cattle-3479/2011/1/white-eyes.htm

 

[TexasBred]

Watch your sulfur levels. Test your water right now for sulfates and make sure anything high in sulfur (distillers grains, canola meal) is taken out of the diet immediately.

No need to remove corn gluten feed or distillers grain. Just learn how to feed it properly. It is not a complete feed but rather one ingredient in a complete feed. This dilutes the sulfur levels down to a level where they are not dangerous but rather meets sulfur needs of the animal.

 

[Faster horses]

I think you need to watch what kind of mineral you feed when
feeding corn gluten or distillers grain, also.

 

[Sir Loin]

TexasBred

Re:

Just learn how to feed it properly.

OK, why don’t you tell me exactly how to feed it when I get 16 ton delivered with out an analysis sheet and I don’t have a lab and chemist on site?
why don’t you tell me exactly how to feed it when I go to the co-op and buy a sack of feed that contains corn gluten but lists no sulfur?

This dilutes the sulfur levels down to a level where they are not dangerous

Well thank you for finally at least admitting “they” are dangerous.
SL

PS: Thanks for dropping by. Nice to see you again. Now all I need is Dun and VanC and I can play my favorite song. :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8

 

[loomixguy]

I think you need to watch what kind of mineral you feed when
feeding corn gluten or distillers grain, also.

I ran into this several years ago with some calves that came from Montana. The feeder was really pushing the distiller's, and before long some of the calves began showing symptoms of polio.

The mineral isn't as important as the fact they need to be fed a buffer in the diet that contains thyamine. At least that's what happens around here.

 

[Faster horses]

We had a neighbor who had a cow down because of polio...from
bad water...I mean this cow was really down...our Vigortone vet
recommended thiamine shots or one daily for awhile (don't
remember for sure as it was a few years ago). She was out in the
hot sun and Mr. FH put a shade over her out of canvas. He spotted
her when he went to hay one morning--she had got into our
pasture. When she stayed alive, he and the owners moved her into their barn
by using the loader on the tractor and put her on a trailer.
She couldn't eat, so they
diligently put hay in her mouth and she managed to chew.;they
poured water in her mouth til she could drink on her own. The
vet said they would know on the 21st day if she would make it or not.
I've never seen anyone so dedicated to making a cow live. They
did everything.........for 21 days........and that cow got up!! Honest,
she did. She took her calf, came back to her milk and bred back!
She was late calving that next spring, but still in the time frame they
used and that cow is still in their herd today. That was some kind of miracle, I'll
tell you, and that cow was well-earned by those people. I don't think
we could have done what they did for as long as they persisted.
Anyhow, a FWIW story...with a good ending. We need those now and again...

 

[VB RANCH]

Sir Loin Wrote {It is the by-product from the distillation of Ethanol where they add sulfur to extract the maximum alcohol. It was originally only called “corn gluten” only, but to promote sales they started calling it “distillers grain” and even just “corn byproduct“}

here in this country it is corn glutin or dry distillers grain, corn glutin in my opion smells like piss don't know why any body would feed it, dry distillers is simler to soybeen meal in texture, then theres the wet stuff that people feed also, none of wich is corn glutin

 

[WVGenetics]

It is the by-product from the distillation of Ethanol where they add sulfur to extract the maximum alcohol. It was originally only called “corn gluten” only, but to promote sales they started calling it “distillers grain” and even just “corn byproduct“ .

Note: There are some “distillers grain” and “corn byproduct“ out there that are perfectly safe to use.
I use Jack Daniel's Tennessee Whiskey distillers grain.
So you need to know where it is coming from to know its safe.
This is where corn gluten comes from into my area.

SL

Corn gluten and distillers grains are two completely different feeds created through completely different processes. Corn gluten is the primary protein fraction of corn that is a byproduct of corn oil and corn starch production. As you stated, distillers grains are the byproduct of alcohol production...both can be high in sulfur but primarily distillers because of the microbial fermentation products that are concentrated in the distillation process. The primary sulfur component of corn gluten is sulfur containing amino acids which can only cause problems when they are metabolized in excess releasing the sulfur. Corn gluten is a highly variable feed and often gets burnt in the processing making the protein unavailable. Either way, they are best used as a component of protein supplementation and not all protein supplement.

 

[VB RANCH]

YA, what you said WVGenetics

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

smells like p***

That P*** you are smelling is sulfuric acid! Battery acid! That is what makes it toxic. It smells like an older car with a bad catalytic converter before we took the sulfur out of gasoline.
SL

 

[VB RANCH]

Na, it smells like piss

 

[BlackCattleRancher]

My cows have ate more CCDS, gluten and distillers over the last 15 winters than they have hay, practically lived on the stuff and ate some garbage hay and straw as buffer. Super cheap feed, never had polio and never, ever seen anything like the pictures you're posting. Have had cows in really good condition, good breed ups, and background the calves on the stuff too. This year it has prit near priced itself out of the rations for cows, and is being used primarily as a protein supp on the backgrounding calves instead of full energy. You sure seem to have an agenda against ethanol byproducts.

Acute vitamin B Deficiency Caused by??
by Runaway Deere » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:46 pm

mind you this steer has been down 4 whole days.
Snip
some extra vit B. Steer is now doing great, we figured out he had Polioencephalomalacia.

AKA PEM & polio.
Source: http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=73932&sid=93065eea84a5a4ee4c23098b4094022b

here is the link to the Merck manual
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... 102000.htm

The Merck Veterinarian Manual

Polioencephalomalacia (PEM) is an important neurologic disease of ruminants that is seen worldwide. Cattle, sheep, goats, deer, and camelids are affected. The term PEM denotes a lesion with certain gross and microscopic features that are not specific for a particular etiology or pathogenesis. Historically, PEM has been associated with altered thiamine status, but more recently an association with high sulfur intake has been observed.
FYI: That “but more recently an association with high sulfur intake has been observed” can be the result of feeding Ethanol corn gluten ( now AKA distillers grain ) to either the momma before the calf was born or to him after he was born.
IMO extreme caution should be taken when feeding corn gluten.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

BlackCattleRancher

Re:

You sure seem to have an agenda against ethanol byproducts.

------------STRIKE ONE!

But just to show you I can give it as well as take it:
You sure seem to have an agenda for ethanol and ethanol byproducts.
You wouldn’t be a member of some special interest group to promote Ethanol or a salesman for corn gluten, would you?
How would you feel if your children started dying from sulfur in milk or meat?? ( Liberal guilt trip )
SL

SL

 

[TexasBred]

It is the by-product from the distillation of Ethanol where they add sulfur to extract the maximum alcohol. It was originally only called “corn gluten” only, but to promote sales they started calling it “distillers grain” and even just “corn byproduct“ .

Note: There are some “distillers grain” and “corn byproduct“ out there that are perfectly safe to use.
I use Jack Daniel's Tennessee Whiskey distillers grain.
So you need to know where it is coming from to know its safe.
This is where corn gluten comes from into my area.

SL

Corn gluten and distillers grains are two completely different feeds created through completely different processes. Corn gluten is the primary protein fraction of corn that is a byproduct of corn oil and corn starch production. As you stated, distillers grains are the byproduct of alcohol production...both can be high in sulfur but primarily distillers because of the microbial fermentation products that are concentrated in the distillation process. The primary sulfur component of corn gluten is sulfur containing amino acids which can only cause problems when they are metabolized in excess releasing the sulfur. Corn gluten is a highly variable feed and often gets burnt in the processing making the protein unavailable. Either way, they are best used as a component of protein supplementation and not all protein supplement.

Exactly what I said earlier. Both products can be and usually are very variable in nutrient densities.

 

[TexasBred]

You'll learn the only problem Sir Loin has is in "MANAGEMENT".