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I know that there is something wrong with badmouthing any other program. If you believe in your own you don't need to worry about others, except as a learning experience.
I also don't beleive in chasing EPD, but they are sure a great tool if you know what you are trying to get done. We would never buy a bull without EPD, but we also would never buy a bull for keeping replacements with numbers at the top of the scale. We don't have much use for 35 milk EPD and 100 YWT (or WWT) for cow producers.
There are a lot of tools out there like linebreeding and such and we have found the best insurance is to buy bulls/semen from "real programs" that make their money from the beef business. That could be a Kit Pharo type program, or an EPD elite program or any range in between depending on what you need.
It is people that make for good business, not cattle or otherwise. All my neighbours think they have great cattle, but we do things different, so I would not want to own any of their "perfect cows".
This is a pretty interesting thread, in particular the AI thing. I know what companies we deal with on AI. For our commercial herd I don't need to lead the pack so we tend to use only very well proven sires that we have seen calves out of (with the odd special exception). I am pretty sure the person I deal with would personally do everything possible to make a problem right for me (that's why there are generally no problems).
 
I was visiting with a guy the other night about his sire selection for his purebred Angus herd and he was telling me about a bull he used AI last spring that had numbers like 40 milk, 75 weaning, and 135 yearling. It's none of my business what kind of cattle he raises but I asked him what kind of cows he thought he was going to end up with and he said they'll probably end up with 1600 pound cows. Personally I think 1600# will be the low end of his cow weights if he continues breeding "numbers." Numbers was a word he used a lot when describing his breeding program.

Now, would any commercial cow outfit reading this thread want cows that weigh 1600 to 1800 pounds and if so could you explain to me why you would? Where does the growth craze end? If 135 for yearling is good now won't 150 next year be better? Why not 200 in 10 years? I guarantee there are breeders who will pour the creep feed to these calves until we see numbers like this some day.

I agree with Robert Mac when he talks about the "entrepreneurs of EPD's" and their never ending quest for growth. Is that good for the beef industry? When did the word bigger begin to mean the same thing as better?

Most people who are gravitating to the breeders of more functional cattle have realized that they have screwed up their herd and are looking for a fix. My guess is that some haven't realized yet that their cows are too big and to hear someone say that is a threat and that's why we are so sensative. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
A lot of this bigger is better stuff started when the commercal feed lots had all kinds of 1.50 corn to get rid of. Because they are in business to sell feed not nessesarily to make money for the fellow who owns the cattle. The way to sell more feed is to have bigger cattle whether they are more efficent or not. Whitch is about the time the contonental cattle showed up, but they had a problem in that would not grade low choice easily so they turned them black, and forgot everthing else in the chain from pasture to plate. Just my oppinion Everything in moderation rd
 
roger dodger said:
A lot of this bigger is better stuff started when the commercal feed lots had all kinds of 1.50 corn to get rid of. Because they are in business to sell feed not nessesarily to make money for the fellow who owns the cattle. The way to sell more feed is to have bigger cattle whether they are more efficent or not. Whitch is about the time the contonental cattle showed up, but they had a problem in that would not grade low choice easily so they turned them black, and forgot everthing else in the chain from pasture to plate. Just my oppinion Everything in moderation rd
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AMEN

Faster Horses-- the 707 son ABS has is Rito Legacy 3R9...I have a son of his out of an Indreland EXT X Viking bred cow that is looking better every day...Still waiting for the first of his calves to come along to see what they are like....

FH-I sure am pleased with the two N Bar Prime Time calves I got so far out of the heifers as far as calving ease...Both heifer calves- one weighted 69 lbs the other weighed 66 lbs- and even checking regularly during this storm/cold spell I haven't seen one being born- lots of vigor- both up and sucking by the time I found them- even tho the one born last night was when it was about 5 Below...
 
Referring to what Big Swede's post I have heard alot of the same talk. I am not wanting to ruffle anyone's feathers or put down someones cattle. I have talked to some of my fellow commercial cattleman who are tripping all over themselves to get some Pendleton semen. I have not seen the bull(in person) or any of his progeny but I will say that his numbers absolutely scare the heck out of me. -3.7 bw. epd(I can live with this) and a 143 yw epd. Heck his ww epd is 94, thats higher than most bulls' yw epds. He ranks in the top 5% for almost every epd imagineable. I hope it works for them but it sure looks like a wreck in my book.
 
I have kept track of my kill cow weights for a few years and they average around 1100#s.I did sell a 12 year old open cow on monday she tipped the scales at 975#s in a 6 body condition.I did sell 2 of the biggest fattest opens I had a month ago they weighed 1445# in a BCS of 8-9 they were hog fat.They were my 2 biggest cows and both open both purchased elsewhere and not real money maker's here.
 
badroute, I agree.

Was at Larry Leonhardts last weekend and I will echo his question:
How much is enough?

OT, that is really great. Wooo hoooo, I"m happy for you and
your heifers. We're thinking of buying some Mytty In Focus
sons for the yearling heifers.
I talked with Rob Brooks last night and he really likes his Bennett
Total calves. Says they are small at birth and really grow.

Comments, anyone?
 
I think the Total females will be better than the bull side in a purebred deal-he has the pedigree I hate the most but the E.P.D set I find most appealing. I've never seen the bull walk but he is supposed to be very sound-he is pretty free moving in his video. Total has calved well up here for my customers.
 
Faster horses said:
badroute, I agree.

Was at Larry Leonhardts last weekend and I will echo his question:
How much is enough?

OT, that is really great. Wooo hoooo, I"m happy for you and
your heifers. We're thinking of buying some Mytty In Focus
sons for the yearling heifers.
I talked with Rob Brooks last night and he really likes his Bennett
Total calves. Says they are small at birth and really grow.

Comments, anyone?
Click to expand...

In Focus is another very easy calver- and I sure like the looks of some bulls and heifers I've seen out of him....I thought the In Focus sons in the Wittkopp sale a couple weeks ago were the best group....The one daughter I have is really nice and deep and in her stage of growth right now is barely a 5 frame- so not really too big...Some that have used him have told me he will breed pretty pretty true to the cow....When used on smaller framed cows- won't add much-- and when bred to larger framed- won't take any off...

I don't know if you saw when I posted the picture of the In Focus heifer- or it was when you were on your world travels :wink: Anyway this is the heifer sired by In Focus with mgs being Tehama Lite 561....Last night when I was checking the heifers in a snowstorm, while I was standing there looking around she walked up and gave me a big lick on my arm... :)
Cow08002.jpg
 
Northern Rancher said:
I think the Total females will be better than the bull side in a purebred deal-he has the pedigree I hate the most but the E.P.D set I find most appealing. I've never seen the bull walk but he is supposed to be very sound-he is pretty free moving in his video. Total has calved well up here for my customers.
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NR - are you referring to the top or the bottom of that pedigree. We have used the top and the bottom in different ways and I don't like to top too much for how we operate. The bottom I really like if I don't have to get off the horse (which we usually don't).
 
Since we are talking about a few bloodlines here I wanna know if anyone has seen any "KING" offspring? This is the Canadian bull that a few Montana and ND breeders are using. I really like the looks of him in the picture and his EPD's look pretty sensible if I'm not mistaken. If someone has seen any sons or daughters I would really like an opinion on them. He might be an outcross for me in the next few years.
 
There are some real good posts here. I feel the type of land grass and the way the land is managed has just as much to do with cattle growth than genetics. Somewhere I read American Angus Association has 44,000 members with that many members one is going to find every mind set under the sun and every type of personality and every thickness of pocketbook. I really liked the photo on here with that bright green hay. If I had that my cows would look good and produce good.

As people read these posts we need to understand that some will post about a herd as a line of cattle. Sometimes those herds may have different types of cattle over the years. Lets use Ankony, Leachman and everyone will have there own idea. positive and negative. Then there are different Leachmans at the same time and a whole different deal.
Scotch Cap is that Hoff cattle or Scotch Cap himself.
Many and way to many pick up ads (AI BOOKS) and find the pretty photo and that s their bull of the year. Some of these bull are just promotion and some are the real deal.
Fact many commerical cattlemen buy bulls from a respected breeder. Reguardless of sire lines.

One final point a local rancher in his 60s has went 1000 miles to get the biggest Angus bulls in the county he has used these bulls for the past 10 years. He weans his calves at 9 months of age to get those big weights.
He is on the phone every year to find buyers for them goes to different sale barns to sell them. Calves do not get all the feed they want. After a few years of weaning calves at 9 months you can figure what his cows look like and how they breed back.
Everybody has their own song to sing

I need the spell checker this early morning.
 
Faster horses said:
badroute, I agree.

Was at Larry Leonhardts last weekend and I will echo his question:
How much is enough?

OT, that is really great. Wooo hoooo, I"m happy for you and
your heifers. We're thinking of buying some Mytty In Focus
sons for the yearling heifers.
I talked with Rob Brooks last night and he really likes his Bennett
Total calves. Says they are small at birth and really grow.

Comments, anyone?
Click to expand...
FH, why would you use anything but Larry's bulls?
 
If we sell bred heifers (which we plan to do), I thought it would be 'added value' to have them bred to sons of 'brand name' or bulls who were recognized as heifer bulls, so to speak. Also, I was a little worried about breeding the heifers to his bulls, as I'm not sure about their birthweight. And when we buy heifer bulls, we buy HEIFER bulls. We
don't want the heifers to have problems calving. I also wondered if we would get some hybird vigor using Larry's bulls since they are from a closed herd.

I just wasn't as comfy with it as I should be. We did buy some 'cow bulls' however. And Larry won't blow smoke...he says some of his bulls are better heifer bulls than others, but there was no guarantee. I'm sure not an EPD fan, but I do like to look at BW in cow families to assure low BW through the cow side. I'm not saying Larry has a BW problem in his herd, I don't think he does; in fact, I'm sure he doesn't. But I just didn't know how they would cross on our heifers. Plus, buying yearling bulls allows you to use them longer...Larry's bulls are all coming 2 year olds...well, there were some fall calves in there, but not many. The price of them was sure right.

Please comment.
 
Faster horses said:
If we sell bred heifers (which we plan to do), I thought it would be 'added value' to have them bred to sons of 'brand name' or bulls who were recognized as heifer bulls, so to speak. Also, I was a little worried about breeding the heifers to his bulls, as I'm not sure about their birthweight. And when we buy heifer bulls, we buy HEIFER bulls. We
don't want the heifers to have problems calving. I also wondered if we would get some hybird vigor using Larry's bulls since they are from a closed herd.

I just wasn't as comfy with it as I should be. We did buy some 'cow bulls' however. And Larry won't blow smoke...he says some of his bulls are better heifer bulls than others, but there was no guarantee. I'm sure not an EPD fan, but I do like to look at BW in cow families to assure low BW through the cow side. I'm not saying Larry has a BW problem in his herd, I don't think he does; in fact, I'm sure he doesn't. But I just didn't know how they would cross on our heifers. Plus, buying yearling bulls allows you to use them longer...Larry's bulls are all coming 2 year olds...well, there were some fall calves in there, but not many. The price of them was sure right.

Please comment.
Click to expand...
I assumed you were breeding them as replacements. :oops:
I know Larry selects for functionally efficient cattle and should have some good heifer bulls that would produce consistent birth weights.
 

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