Am I reading this correctly?

[Anonymous]

Oh, I think Kit makes for an easy target. He choosrs to single himself out as "the one" that knows how to run cows. No secret about it. He holds meetings all across the land selling his philosophy. Very good marketing. One of the best at it.

Yep-- most either hate Kit and his extreme low input program- or love him... But just like SAV (Schaff's) and their pour the feed/corncrib to the calf/cow from the day its born program to get 1000 lb weaning weights- they are extremes ....
Both are great marketers- and to me neither of their cattle work for me-- or in my opinion will work for most in my enviroment-- and the reality of what works best lies in the middle.... Altho in my area- some of Pharo/Ohlde type cattle/bulls work much better than the corncrib SAV cattle- even tho- and probably because- those bulls have a difference of 500-600lbs sale weight....
If I had to choose only between the two- their would be no indecision- I'd take the forage raised bulls that had a much better chance to hold up in real life pasture situations- and produce cows that could do the same....

And I definitely oppose any seedstock producer that moves their cattle that don't breed up for spring calving to fall calving-- but if you look at many many major seedstock producers it has become the norm- the same as some of your bigger commercial folks have done the same with higher calf prices -keeping the late calvers and opens and running a fall calving program.....Which to me- I agree is more $ efficient- but continues to wreak hell and havoc on the maternal abilities/quality of our cattle as a whole....

 

[High Plains]

Hijacking the thread, but in responding to your point, Old Timer, it does make some ecomic sense to roll over a cow that comes up open in the spring herd to the fall herd. Just give her one chance to make up for it. With the cost of buying or developing replacements, I think it can make some sense. Only keeping replacement heifers from the larger spring herd quells any problems with propagating poor fertility for cows that miss. Just my take on it.

 

[WyomingRancher]

However he preaches he knows the right way to raise cattle, yet he markets the culls as "Breeding cattle"

So there must be more than one way to raise cattle huh

One guys "culls" must end up as another guys cows! This outfit is no different than anybody who sells cows intended to become breeding stock. Unless you go to a sale to buy canners, who doesnt buy cows that were "culled" out of another herd? Maybe his culls are better than everyone else's breeding stock. Not that I believe that.....But somebody must or how'd he stay in business this long? I guess it just bugs me how we run folks down we don't agree with. If you don't want to buy any PCC cattle, DONT. But why run the outfit down? :roll: How bout' we all run our cows the way we'd like and allow others the same option?

It's a little thing called ETHICS. :? and Integrity

I suppose you could say we all sell our "culls". I usually keep what I feel are my best hfrs and sell the rest. If someone feels the ones I am selling are good enough to fit their purpose more power to them. When I have a open cow I take them to the auction markets and sell them as weigh up cows. I can't help it if someone buys them for breeding.
However if I traveled the country selling my program telling how if a cow misses she's gone then advertise them as "Our loss my be your win" I think that's a bit hypocritical. Does she have trich? She's a cull.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

Yeah, just a tad hypocritical :roll: :wink: .

 

[leanin' H]

One guys "culls" must end up as another guys cows! This outfit is no different than anybody who sells cows intended to become breeding stock. Unless you go to a sale to buy canners, who doesnt buy cows that were "culled" out of another herd? Maybe his culls are better than everyone else's breeding stock. Not that I believe that.....But somebody must or how'd he stay in business this long? I guess it just bugs me how we run folks down we don't agree with. If you don't want to buy any PCC cattle, DONT. But why run the outfit down? :roll: How bout' we all run our cows the way we'd like and allow others the same option?

It's a little thing called ETHICS. :? and Integrity

I suppose you could say we all sell our "culls". I usually keep what I feel are my best hfrs and sell the rest. If someone feels the ones I am selling are good enough to fit their purpose more power to them. When I have a open cow I take them to the auction markets and sell them as weigh up cows. I can't help it if someone buys them for breeding.
However if I traveled the country selling my program telling how if a cow misses she's gone then advertise them as "Our loss my be your win" I think that's a bit hypocritical. Does she have trich? She's a cull.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

Yeah, just a tad hypocritical :roll: :wink: .

BMR and WY Rancher, I respectfully disagree. BMR states that you keep your best heifers and sell the rest. You just culled your bunch of heifers! If I am at the salebarn the day you sell and buy some of them, I just bought your culls! There is nothing wrong with that is there? If Pharo preaches how grand his program is and that his cows perfect, bully for him. I feel the same way about most of mine. If I didnt, I'd be kinda stupid to keep them. But nobody holds a gun to the buyer's head and forces them to buy Pharo's cattle do they? A bunch of folks must attend the seminars and somebody must buy what he's selling right? You and I don't but other folks do. My point is why run him down because we disagree with his methods? When I get to be perfect, i'll call others hypocrits and unethical. Or maybe I won't. You know what................forget about it. I have been beating this dead horse over and over. For lots of different topics when folks on this site start taking shots at each other or someone they disagree with. I'll quit wasting my breath cause I must be the only one who feels the way I do. :roll:

 

[Northern Rancher]

I always sell the pick of the herd-if your cattle are anywheres even not a big difference between the top and the bottom anyway.

 

[Larrry]

How bout' we all run our cows the way we'd like and allow others the same option?

I will be silent about the way he runs his when he quits running down everyone that doesn't do it his way. I am not saying I think he is all wrong but his running down guys that don't do it like he does is what grates me.

 

[Anonymous]

Hijacking the thread, but in responding to your point, Old Timer, it does make some ecomic sense to roll over a cow that comes up open in the spring herd to the fall herd. Just give her one chance to make up for it. With the cost of buying or developing replacements, I think it can make some sense. Only keeping replacement heifers from the larger spring herd quells any problems with propagating poor fertility for cows that miss. Just my take on it.

Yep-- and I totally agree...But today I got a catalog in the mail from one of the major angus seedstock producers in Canada-- that is having their second production sale of the last 4 months (last one was the first week of Dec. ) with the majority of these cattle-- both bulls and heifers being born in their fall calving program (Sept/Oct ) -- which always makes me wonder how/why these dams ended up in a fall calving program :???:
Especially when this part of the country is not really a fall calving enviroment unless you have unlimited access to haystacks and grain bins....

 

[Northern Rancher]

They is purdy lookin!

 

[Soapweed]

Every fall we end up with some nice young open cows. Bulls are turned in with these cows from November 1st until January 1st. These fall calvers are for sale each June. I hope potential buyers realize they are not only buying a fat dry bred cow, but are also buying a part of our program. :wink:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

It's a little thing called ETHICS. :? and Integrity

I suppose you could say we all sell our "culls". I usually keep what I feel are my best hfrs and sell the rest. If someone feels the ones I am selling are good enough to fit their purpose more power to them. When I have a open cow I take them to the auction markets and sell them as weigh up cows. I can't help it if someone buys them for breeding.
However if I traveled the country selling my program telling how if a cow misses she's gone then advertise them as "Our loss my be your win" I think that's a bit hypocritical. Does she have trich? She's a cull.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

Yeah, just a tad hypocritical :roll: :wink: .

BMR and WY Rancher, I respectfully disagree. BMR states that you keep your best heifers and sell the rest. You just culled your bunch of heifers! If I am at the salebarn the day you sell and buy some of them, I just bought your culls! There is nothing wrong with that is there? If Pharo preaches how grand his program is and that his cows perfect, bully for him. I feel the same way about most of mine. If I didnt, I'd be kinda stupid to keep them. But nobody holds a gun to the buyer's head and forces them to buy Pharo's cattle do they? A bunch of folks must attend the seminars and somebody must buy what he's selling right? You and I don't but other folks do. My point is why run him down because we disagree with his methods? When I get to be perfect, i'll call others hypocrits and unethical. Or maybe I won't. You know what................forget about it. I have been beating this dead horse over and over. For lots of different topics when folks on this site start taking shots at each other or someone they disagree with. I'll quit wasting my breath cause I must be the only one who feels the way I do. :roll:

LH lets beat this horse a little more, make darn sure it won't come back to life.

A question, not case specific. Is it possible to make an observation regarding the existence of an apparent paradox or obvious contradiction and communicate it without a value judgement being expressed?

 

[gcreekrch]

I want the 15 year old cow for $1200. She's cheap and experienced. :wink: :lol:


Kind of with H on this one. Rancher's biggest downfall as a group is marketing their product. I would sooner learn from good marketing than reject the concept completely. If someone wanted to pay me double what a dry cow was worth simply because I advertised her for what she was I would gladly take the money.

 

[Larrry]

morals



I don't see that much wrong with selling the cows that didn't raise a calf, unless you preach against it and condemn the practice of keeping missed cog cows

 

[Boss Cowman]

Every fall we end up with some nice young open cows. Bulls are turned in with these cows from November 1st until January 1st. These fall calvers are for sale each June. I hope potential buyers realize they are not only buying a fat dry bred cow, but are also buying a part of our program. :wink:

HAHAHA :lol: :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

morals



I don't see that much wrong with selling the cows that didn't raise a calf, unless you preach against it and condemn the practice of keeping missed cog cows

Kind of sounds like many of the "bigger, better, fasters" that promote their cattle as "maternal" but now have spring and fall calving programs- as well as two three "dispersions" a year- which includes open "ready to flush" cows..... :wink: :roll:

Which has convinced me that some of the smaller producers that actually work with their cattle ( no Herd Managers, AI Managers, Genetic Managers, Promotion Managers, Interns, etc., etc.-- probably have a better knowledge of their cattle) and run them as most commercial cattle are run- have some of the great diamonds in the rough for seedstock cattle.....

 

[jkvikefan]

Don't blame the seller,nobody is forcing those folks to buy those cows.

 

[C Thompson]

I am with gcreekrch and leanin h as well. I just read a bunch of November posts a couple lines up where the poor Scotsman got crucified for about 4 pages and didn't see a lot of proactivity or sharing there until the last page. I have been to seminars where both of these guys (Ian & Kit) spoke and spent a bunch of money to get there and would spend it again for the value in their messages. Having said that I have also seen quite a lot of value in what each and every one of you have shared as well. We all have different skills and tools that have been given or sold to us over the years and I am probably hungrier now than I ever was for more knowledge. I hope I can always try to be humble enough to keep learning a little something from everyone and overlook the petty stuff that human nature keeps throwing in front of me.

 

[Angus 62]

Any cow not raising a calf is only worth cull price when it comes right down to it. In the purebred con game it is cull price plus the amount of BS you can pile on top. I believe it reflects poorly on the seller [especially if your act is being totally about commercial producers] to sell failed cows as something better. No different then other promoters selling ''open and ready to flush.''

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

It's like going to a Ranching for Profit school and hearing the message to sell your haying machinery then finding out DP has a big irrigated hay farm selling hay. Nothing "wrong" just not right. :?

 

[jodywy]

A very big range sheep operstion in SW Wyoming , puts a hog ring in ewes not lambing or that lose thier lamb, when a ewe has 2 rings she goes into a band that right before the June 21 teaster rams are introduced, then after June 21 they put in rams, in the fall the ewes ar preg checked and the early lambing ewes are sold into the Californa market for alot more then a cull ewe.

 

[Northern Rancher]

When an add insults the intelligence and common sense of the target audience it's perfectly alright to have an opinion. Calling B.S seems to be a lost and maligned art.