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Black Baldy Bulls (sw)

Most of you that have been members of ranchers.net for any time
know that we raise purebred Black Angus. They work for us, we
are happy with them.

That said, we bought some bulls from Larry Leonhardt, Cowley, Wyoming.
Larry probably knows more about Angus genetics than anyone in the U.S.
Ok, I should restate that. Larrry probably knows AS MUCH about Angus
genetics as anyone in the U.S. He is Shoshone Angus Ranch.

He says the only thing FREE in this business in heterosis.

He runs a purebred herd, extremely line bred and when we were there,
the only outside cattle he used was John Hamilton's Cedar Hills Angus
cattle. He has 3 groups to choose from. One is extremely linebred,
another is 25% outside influence; with the third being more % outside
influence.

For anyone that is REALLY interested in Angus genetics, I suggest
you take the time to go there and visit with this man. Look at his
cattle (his cows look like they have been cloned).

He's great to talk to. As he says, "I'm just an old beet farmer." :wink:
 
well said bill !!!!!!!!
progressive producers realize that one breed cannot do everything. After all every breed came from composites at one point. MARC data has proven that cross breeding pays.

Pork is a prime example of hybrid accomplishment. There are virtually no purebred pigs anymore and they have a very consistant product.
 
Bill said:
With all due respect some of the previous color explantions are absolutely incorrect. Black is dominant hence the term Homozygous black. There is one variance of black and that is grey. Gray is introduced by the diluter gene carried by the non-black parent. If one parent is truly homozygous black they will only throw black or grey calves not red.
Click to expand...

To add to this, a Black animal can carry the red Gene. It is very possible to breed a black bull to a group of black cows and get 50% red calves. The bull would have to carry the red gene, and so would the cows, but you won't see this until the calves hit the ground. Black is dominant, and red is recessive.

Black being E and red being e

ee x ee = 100% ee(red)
EE x EE = 100% EE(homozygous black)
EE x ee = 100% Ee (heterozygous black)
Ee x ee = 50% Ee and 50% ee
Ee x Ee = 25% EE 50% Ee and 25% ee

This is assuming that there is no dilution gene at play :wink:
 
Another factor involved is that composite bulls are often from the poorer cows of a breed that can't compete in a purebred situation. I have seen Angus cows that wouldn't raise a 600 pound Angus calf, but the owner has a market for those crossbred bulls so he breeds her Simmental. The calf weans at over 700 and sells for good money. The buyer never went back, he got lots of little calves and a few big Simmental type calves.

Jason-

This factor that you mention here exemplifies why I continue to stress that for any mating to be successful (PARTICULARLY cross-breeding protcols!) BOTH the Sire AND DAM must be of optimal phenotype and Genotype individuals. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear - whatever combination of colors or stripes they may possess! Just because one mates Bull ??? to Cow XYZ won't guarantee a calf that is worth squat! If you breed the BEST to the VERY BEST - you will get an acceptable result as a calf - PROBABLY!

Of course - there may be circumstances when perfection is not possible - I understand that - but at least make an effort to approach the seemingly impossible! Don't just use "cow-freshener's" and 'wait and see what happens!' I can tell you what will happen before you do it! You will be out of the beef business - PDQ!

DOC HARRIS
Click to expand...
 
And of course there is the wild gene, or E+ at the extension that can cause all sorts of fun things but that is not really part of this discussion except for those darn annoying calves that are born red and than are "black" by weaning although they are genetically red.. I think Simmies are actually marking cattle that cary the E+ at the extension locus as carrying a defect, at least that is what Dr. Schmutz up in Saskatoon told me a few years back... Had a Tarentaise calf do that this year... Had Maine X with Chi/Angus do it too. Strange looking critters.


Generally the people with the most against those darn mongrel bulls (And I don't use any of them at the moment but used to use maintanors (1/2-3/4 Main Anjou Bulls)) are those breeding the pure bred bulls... Not much difference using a pure bull on a hybrid cow herd than using a hybrid bull on a pure cow herd..... If you want 1/4 Cont blood steers you are going to have to do one or the other.

When we did run the 3/4 and 1/2 blood Maine bulls the calves were pretty darn uniform. 1/2 didn't look like Maines and 1/2 didn't look like Angus.. They looked like what they were, cattle with between 25 and 37% cont blood... All the bulls were at the very least sired by the same bull.. Had some great feeders...
 
Bill said:
With all due respect some of the previous color explantions are absolutely incorrect. Black is dominant hence the term Homozygous black. There is one variance of black and that is grey. Gray is introduced by the diluter gene carried by the non-black parent. If one parent is truly homozygous black they will only throw black or grey calves not red.


You are absolutely correct Bill, unless things have changed since I went through Genetics 101. That is why I said " if you are using a purebred, registered angus bull he should throw black calves. So, if your black bull is throwing a lot of red calves ( no matter what mix of cows you have), A. he is not a purebred angus, or B. he is one of the very few purebred angus left still carrying the red recessive gene.

I would also like to comment on NR's statement about what the purebred breeders genetics has done for him. But I don't have time right now. I will leave it with the statement that the maximum heterosis you can get is the F1 cross between two pure lines or breeds. The more mixed up they get the less heterosis effect you get. That is probably why the black baldie cow ( pure hereford x pure angus) or the F 1 tiger stripe cow are such great cows.
Click to expand...
 
I do agree completely efb.

Talking about crossing Hereford and Angus, there is a good Hereford breeder here who said, "That first cross
is dynamite, it's downhill from there. I know, I tried it."

The first time we used Angus bulls on Hereford heifers, in the
early 70's, we got the first C-sections we ever had. That hybrid
vigor can show up in birthweights too. Of course, that was before
we knew about EPD's and birthweights much.

I guess we are leaving some money on the table, but we like to
keep it simple. If you had enough land to run two seperate herds,
could keep replacements out of one herd and use the other
for terminal cross, that would probably be an ideal situation.
 
EFB, you must have forgotten genetics 101, black being the dominant color, any Angus purebred can be a red carrier, for example, a BB would be black, a Bb would be black and a bb would be red. Red Angus are Angus with the bb genes. Add this to this, when dealing with genetics from say Stevenson/Basin, they have reds and blacks so you better know bloodlines before buying. Our neighbor kept getting red calves from AIed cows, using Stevenson semen, they accused our GV bulls of teppee creeping until we looked at their sires and I explained to them that they were getting so much Stevenson breeding in their herd that they now had red carrier cows and were breeding to a red carrier bull.
 
DOC HARRIS said:
Another factor involved is that composite bulls are often from the poorer cows of a breed that can't compete in a purebred situation. I have seen Angus cows that wouldn't raise a 600 pound Angus calf, but the owner has a market for those crossbred bulls so he breeds her Simmental. The calf weans at over 700 and sells for good money. The buyer never went back, he got lots of little calves and a few big Simmental type calves.

Jason-

This factor that you mention here exemplifies why I continue to stress that for any mating to be successful (PARTICULARLY cross-breeding protcols!) BOTH the Sire AND DAM must be of optimal phenotype and Genotype individuals. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear - whatever combination of colors or stripes they may possess! Just because one mates Bull ??? to Cow XYZ won't guarantee a calf that is worth squat! If you breed the BEST to the VERY BEST - you will get an acceptable result as a calf - PROBABLY!

Of course - there may be circumstances when perfection is not possible - I understand that - but at least make an effort to approach the seemingly impossible! Don't just use "cow-freshener's" and 'wait and see what happens!' I can tell you what will happen before you do it! You will be out of the beef business - PDQ!

DOC HARRIS
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Doc I agree with you 100%, but what I posted was about a bull from a "reputable" breeder with two breeds.

I have been asked to do it, I refused. I have bred the poorest cows to other breeds to get show steers. Some guys wanted the calves as bulls but I steered them as soon as possible just to prevent the temptation. Those crossbreds stood right with the best purebred calves, but were out of the poorer cows. They wouldn't throw what they looked like, and I knew it would hurt me in the long run.

You don't get to celebrate 60 years as purebred outfit in the same family by chance!
 
faster
I guess we are leaving some money on the table, but we like to
keep it simple. If you had enough land to run two separate herds,
could keep replacements out of one herd and use the other
for terminal cross, that would probably be an ideal situation.
Click to expand...

The simplest solution would be to use f1 bulls on f1 cows. No separate pastures and you would maintain the first cross heterosis.

We have many customers that started using gelbvieh bulls on there angus herd as a terminal cross. Inevitably they couldn't help but keep those first cross replacement heifers. In order to keep providing an f1 situation we started breeding some purebred cows (not the poor ones as Jason would like to believe) to select A.I sires. We then solved our customers dilemma thus keeping them as customers. I believe the key to maintaining predictable genetics is utilizing good purebred genetics on both sides of the equation.
 
Another choice elwapo, AI for the F1 and use a terminal to clean up. You keep replacments from the AI sires and you are supposed to get some extra heterosis from the third breed. We used to AI Angus to GV, GV to An and clean up with Chars. Was really easy to see the break between AI and clean up but we were disappointed with the Chars. The F1 beat them in the pasture, in the feedlot and on the rail so we are using Balancers to clean up with and the calves are more uniform than they were for size, the same body type and mostly black but reds don't bother us at all, they are all red and white on the inside.
Here are some pictures taken today of the bull calf pairs, I should have gone out after they were done eating so the cows were not in the way and I could get better pictures. If B/R Midland is worth $200,000, I have some bulls that must be worth a million. You may not be able to see the real difference in these pictures but it is very easy to see first hand, even with the extra fluff.

A Perry's Power design out of a purebred GV cow
stud.jpg


A Balanced Design out of a Balancer cow
stud2.jpg


A Carolina Fortune from an Angus cow
fortune.jpg


A B/R Midland ET ANGUS standing next to a Carolina Fortune out of an Angus cow. The Midland is on the right. NAAA(No ash At ALL)

compare.jpg
 
Like most folks here, we are happy with what we are doing
breed wise. We have an excellent market for our replacement
heifers.

I think people raise the breed of cattle they do for more than
one reason. I'd never try to convince anyone to change what
they are doing, if they are happy doing it.

Breeds of cattle are like Dodge vs. Ford vs Chevrolet.
Most breeds work or they still wouldn't be popular.
The ones that didn't are pretty much gone.

Just like you don't see Studebaker pickups around any more.
 
Nice looking calves SW, except that midland.. I had heard some not so good things about his son from a neighbor who does the Angus thing.. ..

Like your plan with the AI and than the balancers.. We thought/ are thinking about AIing are angus/red Angus cows to red Angus for replacements and than cleaninup up with a Terminal sire.. Figured getting some good Cont bulsl or Balancer, limflex, simangus, whatever would make a good line between AI and cleanup as far as IDing.. Especially if we got homozygous Black ones...

FH, you should always like the breed that you choose to use or otherwise, no matter how good the cattle are, you will always be looking at something else because the breed is not what you want... I could never raise Maine Anjou cattle. They might be great, they made nice terminal sires except the calving difficulties which were a little more than I wanted but they are not by cup of tea.. When I think back 10 years ago to my first year at the Ag school and think of the cattle breeds I liked back than I realize one thing... Hasn't changed...
 
efb if you'd have sat so many purebred soliquay's as I have over the years you'd be getting a bit jaded too. We run alot of purebred Angus cattle too-enough to know that a black hide and a registration paper doesn't make them the be all and end all everytime.
 
I have a number of commercial guys that I have crunched numbers for.

They swore that the composite and crossbred bulls produced more variation in their progeny than purebreds.

After really looking at the numbers, calculating standard deviations, etc, they changed their minds.

In every case, the crossbred bulls produced less variation than did the purebred bulls on ppurebred cows, actually, especially if the purebred bulls were used on purebred cows.

In a crossing system, the calves that landed most often in the dink pen and were the most NON-uniform were always the calves with the least amount of heterosis.

Basically, the mating system where 7% of the calves had minimum heterosis put roughly 50% of the calves into the dink pen. That's right. the 7% of the matings that resulted in the least heterosis produced the least uniform calves, and produced half of the dinks.

In many of these cases, we see what we want to see, especially if we only sell one breed :wink: .


Badlands
 
Badlands, that stat just prooves heterosis still works.

If a rancher uses good purebred stock to produce the F1, his F1 cattle should outperform any purebreds he has everytime, not just 50%.

The next cross is where it is lost, those F1 cattle bred to an F1 of the same cross don't get the hybid boost so the pure line cattle should then be on equal footing.

I agree with Northern, a paper doesn't mean squat on a poor cow.

The only way to get good cattle, of any breed, is to cull the poor ones.
 
Jason,

I edited the post to make one point more clearly.

"In every case, the crossbred bulls produced less variation than did the purebred bulls on purebred cows, actually, especially if the purebred bulls were used on purebred cows."

I would add that purebred bulls on crossbred cows produced no less variation than did crossbred bulls on crossbred cows. Of course, the mating system was planned, so not a bull-of-the-month deal.

If you have some weights for me to look at that might support your point, I would gladly help you with the calculations.


Also, you might have missed a question I had for you, as there have been a good number of posts.

"Will a 1/8 Hereford and 7/8 Charolais bull produce 1/8 of the calves that look like Herefords and 1/8 that look like Charolais?"

Badlands
 
IL Rancher said:
Nice looking calves SW, except that midland.. I had heard some not so good things about his son from a neighbor who does the Angus thing.. ..

Like your plan with the AI and than the balancers.. We thought/ are thinking about AIing are angus/red Angus cows to red Angus for replacements and than cleaninup up with a Terminal sire.. Figured getting some good Cont bulsl or Balancer, limflex, simangus, whatever would make a good line between AI and cleanup as far as IDing.. Especially if we got homozygous Black ones...

FH, you should always like the breed that you choose to use or otherwise, no matter how good the cattle are, you will always be looking at something else because the breed is not what you want... I could never raise Maine Anjou cattle. They might be great, they made nice terminal sires except the calving difficulties which were a little more than I wanted but they are not by cup of tea.. When I think back 10 years ago to my first year at the Ag school and think of the cattle breeds I liked back than I realize one thing... Hasn't changed...
Click to expand...

The Midland calves are ET, we used some of our cows to be recips for someone else's breeding program. We are seeing quite a difference between ours and "theirs". Badlands, we agree, the less heterosis the more dinks. You oughta see the ET heifer calves. I just hope we can make the weight on them when we give them up in March. We thought we were doing something profitable here. We're having second thoughts... :( There are a couple ET bull calves that are dinky, too. The ET group is one of the oldest calves.
 
Well, I'm sure you guys did all the homework for your ET deal, unfortunately sometimes the best laid plains just don't work out :cry: We will figure out eventually what we are doing here, lol. Next year willb e the earliest we will have to buy new bulls probably but maybe I can stretch out a couple bulls a couple more years, lol...
 

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