Bull Business

[nortexsook]

>>What do you meanby, "he paid someone to buy this bull". I am not sure you mean the same thing as what we do, but we have sale reps that come in and buy bulls for ranchers(mainly commercial) who can't come to the sale, we pay them a commission on what they buy. I do it for other breeders as well, as part of my sale management and consulting business.<<

WOW!

No disrespect intended but I'd never go to one of your sales.

You want me to come and bid on bulls that you are in effect paying another bidder to bid against me on?

And is the commission a % of the gross dollars the bull brings? If so he has no incentive to get the best deal for his "client". In fact he sure needs to tell his commercial customers you are paying him or he may have broken a fiduciary responsibility to them. Talk about playing for both teams!


There's no biz, like the cattle biz sometimes!

 

[kolanuraven]

Montana angus mafia.. Hmmmm, let me guess here!!! :wink: :wink:


BRG- shes talking of the practice of getting a couple of folks to come to your sale- bid your bull up and buy it for $10,000 or $20,000 for half interest - then you in return go to their sale and return the favor and bid their bull up to $10,000 to $20,000- and no money really switches hand-- but both of you then have interest in two bulls that you have bragging rights on that you bought as the top $20,000 selller of such and such sale- so you can create emotion and commotion with your ads and get some semen pimp to market semen for you... This is common really, it's called business marketing :wink:

 

[alabama]

Montana angus mafia.. Hmmmm, let me guess here!!! :wink: :wink:


BRG- shes talking of the practice of getting a couple of folks to come to your sale- bid your bull up and buy it for $10,000 or $20,000 for half interest - then you in return go to their sale and return the favor and bid their bull up to $10,000 to $20,000- and no money really switches hand-- but both of you then have interest in two bulls that you have bragging rights on that you bought as the top $20,000 selller of such and such sale- so you can create emotion and commotion with your ads and get some semen pimp to market semen for you... This is common really, it's called business marketing :wink:

Not you Kola? Tell me it ain't so darlin.

I sit on my hands when I sell bulls at auction. I take them to the auction to sell. The last thing I want to do is buy my own bull back. If they won't bring what you need to get for them don't take them to the sale.

 

[Faster horses]

Alabama, I wasn't talking about Kola. And we are talking
about a producers OWN SALE, not taking them to the auction.

OT is right--this guy tried to run with the big dogs, only it didn't work--
and OT knows exactly who I'm talking about.


I just learned something else right here on this thread:

I didn't know that when you have
a rep buy a bull for you at a sale that they get paid a commission from
the seller. Looks like that could get competitive. For instance, if one producer will pay 20% commission to have a rep buy a bull at his sale, but another producer would only pay 5%, whose sale is the rep going to promote?

We buy our own bulls, mostly. I've been in the advertising part of
marketing bulls for years and truly did not know that a commission was paid to a rep for purchasing bulls when the buyer couldn't attend.

I wonder how Kit Pharo handles that? :wink: :lol: :lol:

 

[BRG]

>>What do you meanby, "he paid someone to buy this bull". I am not sure you mean the same thing as what we do, but we have sale reps that come in and buy bulls for ranchers(mainly commercial) who can't come to the sale, we pay them a commission on what they buy. I do it for other breeders as well, as part of my sale management and consulting business.<<

WOW!

No disrespect intended but I'd never go to one of your sales.

You want me to come and bid on bulls that you are in effect paying another bidder to bid against me on?

And is the commission a % of the gross dollars the bull brings? If so he has no incentive to get the best deal for his "client". In fact he sure needs to tell his commercial customers you are paying him or he may have broken a fiduciary responsibility to them. Talk about playing for both teams!


There's no biz, like the cattle biz sometimes!

It isn't bids that I have. I am the only one that has that info, it is kept confidential except it is announced before the sale that I am carrying bids, but it is also announced that the sale reps are carrying bids as well. I have them hired from other parts of the country. They have connections and orders that need to be filled. This is no different than having Superior Livestock or DV Auction at the sale. They are there to represent the buyer and us. Some people need bulls but want a second opinion or an unbiased opinion so they use the sale reps. Some people don't want to go to or don't have time to go to a sale, so they call a rep.

The commission is paid on the gross of his purchase price. This works great, he doesn't get paid from the buyer, so the buyer has no expense at all, but yet he works for him, because if he ever wants to sell him something again, he better use his money like it is his own.

I only hire reps that I would trust with my own money.

 

[BRG]

Alabama, I wasn't talking about Kola. And we are talking
about a producers OWN SALE, not taking them to the auction.

OT is right--this guy tried to run with the big dogs, only it didn't work--
and OT knows exactly who I'm talking about.


I just learned something else right here on this thread:

I didn't know that when you have
a rep buy a bull for you at a sale that they get paid a commission from
the seller. Looks like that could get competitive. For instance, if one producer will pay 20% commission to have a rep buy a bull at his sale, but another producer would only pay 5%, whose sale is the rep going to promote?

We buy our own bulls, mostly. I've been in the advertising part of
marketing bulls for years and truly did not know that a commission was paid to a rep for purchasing bulls when the buyer couldn't attend.

I wonder how Kit Pharo handles that? :wink: :lol: :lol:

Their really isn't much competition for being a rep. Standard rule is 5%, just like an auctioneer is 1%. I could pay these guys a day fee, but what happens if he showes up and doesn't get anything done for me, then I am paying him for nothing.

Now some of the sale reps are also ringmen, they get paid for advertising and to ring and that is ussually it, no commissions on top of it. Then some are breed association reps, and they don't get paid by the seller, they get paid a wage from the association they work for.

 

[Hay Feeder]

This thread is getting interesting. In 07 I picked out 15 bulls from a very well known operation. I called a rep that I had known for many years but I had not been in contact with him for the past few. He went through the bulls with another rep and we agreed on a lot in the middle of the sale.
It was also a Superior Auction so I got to see the bull and I liked him
a gave him a bid. He thought the bull would bring around 3,000 and I agreed to that. I also registered through Superior to buy. About 25 bulls before our choice came in the sale was getting pretty low here comes lot 154 and here we go right up to 3000 it slowed and I could hear my rep kept yelling by himself (as it sounded on TV) to 4250 the next lots went right back to 1200 to 1600 to bascially the end of the 300 head offering once in a while they had a 2500 bull. I purchased 4 more bulls after that for 1200 to 1400 on Superior They were delivered and I recieved a discount from the seller.When my rep called to tell me he bought the bull which I knew on TV he also had the offer to buy insurance that he was selling.
I did not realize till I read these posts today that they also get a buying comission from the seller. While on the subject Superior handled my bids in very good fashion I would bid look at the TV and they took it less than the 3 second delay and NO ROLLING that I could tell thats with Joe Goggins calling the sale.
The bull ended up to be a carrier in Feb and one of the cheaper bulls was just as good if not better.

 

[nortexsook]

I would never use a buyer that was receiving a commission from the seller as well.

I also contend that if the buyers agent did not INFORM the buyer BEFORE hand that he would also receive commissions from the seller that he had breached a fiduciary responsibility to the buyer.

If I had given the buyer an order for bull A with orders go up to $4000. The agent in this situation has NO incentive to buy him for me for $2500. He would be $75 ahead to run me up to $4000 because of the 5% that the SELLER is paying him to buy.

$75 a head may not sound like much but if he buys 5-10 head at the sale it makes a pretty good pay day and he's sure to be asked back next year by the seller.

Dirty Pool. And grounds for a lawsuit if you ask me.
[/b]

 

[BRG]

Maybe that would happen, but not with the guys I deal with.

Besides that, you can't just run a bull up by yourself. If you have a $4000 bid, but the last bidder quit at $2500, how will he get the bid up to $4000 without the help from someone else

Their is a reason why some guys are successful and some aren't. Trust and responsibility goes a long way.

 

[BRG]

I would never use a buyer that was receiving a commission from the seller as well.

I also contend that if the buyers agent did not inform the buyer before hand that he would also receive commissions from the seller that he had breached a fiduciary responsibility to the buyer.

If I had given the buyer an order for bull A with orders go up to $4000. The agent in this situation has NO incentive to buy him for me for $2500. He would be $75 ahead to run me up to $4000 because of the 5% that the SELLER is paying him to buy.

$75 a head may not sound like much but if he buys 5-10 head at the sale it makes a pretty good pay day and he's sure to be asked back next year by the seller.
Dirty Pool. And grounds for a lawsuit if you ask me.
[/b]

As I stated earlier, the seller is the only one paying the sale rep.

He wouldn't be asked back by me if I catch him doing something that isn't honest

 

[nortexsook]

Very easily done if the buyer is also a ringman.

I don't want to argue about it. It seems pretty black and white to me.

I like the cattle you post and you seem like a good guy, so I'm not trying to call you out. I just think the practice does not pass the "smell test".

 

[BRG]

Very easily done if the buyer is also a ringman.

I don't want to argue about it. It seems pretty black and white to me.

I like the cattle you post and you seem like a good guy, so I'm not trying to call you out. I just think the practice does not pass the "smell test".

Like I said, the ringmen are not paid a commission, they get a flat fee for either advertising or ringing or both.

I am not trying to argue either, it just seems like alot of guys think that the purebred breeders are nothing but a bunch of crooks and can't be trusted, and it may be in some cases, but for the most part it isn't.

Thanks for the compliments!

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Very easily done if the buyer is also a ringman.

I don't want to argue about it. It seems pretty black and white to me.

I like the cattle you post and you seem like a good guy, so I'm not trying to call you out. I just think the practice does not pass the "smell test".

Like I said, the ringmen are not paid a commission, they get a flat fee for either advertising or ringing or both.

I am not trying to argue either, it just seems like alot of guys think that the purebred breeders are nothing but a bunch of crooks and can't be trusted, and it may be in some cases, but for the most part it isn't.

Thanks for the compliments!

You say ring men are not payed commission but when bulls are bought by a ringman on order who pays them. The seller or the buyer?

 

[BRG]

Very easily done if the buyer is also a ringman.

I don't want to argue about it. It seems pretty black and white to me.

I like the cattle you post and you seem like a good guy, so I'm not trying to call you out. I just think the practice does not pass the "smell test".

Like I said, the ringmen are not paid a commission, they get a flat fee for either advertising or ringing or both.

I am not trying to argue either, it just seems like alot of guys think that the purebred breeders are nothing but a bunch of crooks and can't be trusted, and it may be in some cases, but for the most part it isn't.

Thanks for the compliments!

You say ring men are not payed commission but when bulls are bought by a ringman on order who pays them. The seller or the buyer?

When a ringman buys a bull on order. The buyer pays the seller directly for the purchase price. The ringman doesn't handle that part at all.

Part of the ringmans jobs is to handle orders and his payment for handling that orders is the flat fee he gets for his day wage of ringing and/or in many cases the advertising he sold the seller.

 

[nortexsook]

>>As I stated earlier, the seller is the only one paying the sale rep. <<

How do you know they don't have arrangements with the buyers?


And my final word on the subject:

The sales rep NEEDS (MUST) tell the buyer that the seller is going to pay him a commission based on the sales price of the animal. This needs to be made clear to the (potential) buyer BEFORE the sale.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Like I said, the ringmen are not paid a commission, they get a flat fee for either advertising or ringing or both.

I am not trying to argue either, it just seems like alot of guys think that the purebred breeders are nothing but a bunch of crooks and can't be trusted, and it may be in some cases, but for the most part it isn't.

Thanks for the compliments!

You say ring men are not payed commission but when bulls are bought by a ringman on order who pays them. The seller or the buyer?

When a ringman buys a bull on order. The buyer pays the seller directly for the purchase price. The ringman doesn't handle that part at all.

Part of the ringmans jobs is to handle orders and his payment for handling that orders is the flat fee he gets for his day wage of ringing and/or in many cases the advertising he sold the seller.

Some of these ringmen bring the orders with them.
Strange that the breeder would get those sales for a flat one day fee.

Always had me wondering. :?

 

[Faster horses]

A buyers rep should be at a sale to represent the buyer not the seller.

 

[Hay Feeder]

In my deal was a livestock newspaper rep so I thought his job was to bring money from his livestock paper to show the seller there ads were working. But when I could see his hands right and left moving on TV I knew i was being ran only by him not the auctioneer or seller. That is when I assumed to these posts today he could of got a commission on top of his duties from the livestock paper. That is how the BUYER pays the commission the roll not the seller. Buyer is not there so does not know what is going on when the bull is in the ring some are now on TV and they did zoom on the ring man rep when the bull sold for some reason I now know why.
Again I have total respect for the seller and will go back again as a live person.
If anyone uses anything I have the highest respect for Northern (i said superior earlier) Northern is the best.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I've order bought alot of bulls over the years-with Fraser's Murray will give the buyers phone number so that only the buyer and I know what the bid is-one ranch in particular gives me the discretion to buy more bulls if I get a bunch bought under budget. The ONLY time I'll get a ringman to run me is if I have multiple bids on a bull-sometimes they need a nudge to get by the low ballers so the highest order can win. If I think a ringworm is pulling s...t I've been known to bid with an extended middle finger it tends to stop that crap or else I make the bull be invoiced at what I bid not what the rafters did. To be honest I tend to avoid the three ring circus bull sales.

 

[leanin' H]

To me it seems a bunch easier to do buisness with people ya know and trust. The old saying about getting what ya pay for really is correct. Trying to slip one past folks seldom is worthwhile. And Breeders who cut corners and throw loyalty out for dollar signs can sell bulls to somebody else. Trust takes time to earn! And it is well worth it! Sure i go to different sales to look at different blood or see whats happening. And I have bought cattle their too. But you get ONE chance to make an impression with me! That goes for your ringmen, secratary, yardmen, pens, scale and auctioneer! My legs work pretty good if the BS is deep! On a side note, it irritates me when an auctioneer is hard to understand or bids $500 at a jump when the bidding is calling for $100 or $250 a jump! Unless I was selling a bunch! :wink: