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Bulls- High forage ration?????

Just Ranchin

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
112
Location
Saskatchewan
I am really starting to get frustrated with the amount of seedstock bull producers out there that claim to have a "high forage ration". We have built our business on this and now we have competing bull producers claiming the same "ranch raised" bulls even though they have seen hard feed since day 1. It seems like everybody says it even though you go to their yard and the bulls are on a finishing ration that is "a high roughage ration". It seems like it is what people "should" put in their catalogue, even though they are point blank lying. Also, how in the hell are some of these bulls weighing 1300+ on a "high roughage ration" when a feedlot is happy if he can have a 1350 lbs finished steer at 14 months? Amazingly, I feel better now.
 
i think it's a requirement for bull producers to put "high roughage ration" somewhere in their catalogs. could be the most over used phrase in the cattle business.
 
" a little bit of grain" explain a little bit

"no creep" no but the cows are fed like crazy or there is hole in the fence and the calves are slippin over to graze wheat.

How come so many brags about living in the best cow country but then they tell about how their cows do so well in tough country.

I've seen forage that cows get fat on or forage where they starve.

It's all relative
 
Just Ranchin said:
I am really starting to get frustrated with the amount of seedstock bull producers out there that claim to have a "high forage ration". We have built our business on this and now we have competing bull producers claiming the same "ranch raised" bulls even though they have seen hard feed since day 1. It seems like everybody says it even though you go to their yard and the bulls are on a finishing ration that is "a high roughage ration". It seems like it is what people "should" put in their catalogue, even though they are point blank lying. Also, how in the hell are some of these bulls weighing 1300+ on a "high roughage ration" when a feedlot is happy if he can have a 1350 lbs finished steer at 14 months? Amazingly, I feel better now.
I think it's a case of buyer beware Just Ranchin - are these yearlings that are weighing 1300+ on a high forage ration? Most of our rising two year olds will be under 1300lb just now because they are on a forage ration and it's winter - no creep, no pellets in their first winter, grass all summer and no pellets in their second winter. Some guys phone up wondering if our bulls will weigh 1800lb before they are two and I say no - some you win, some you lose. The way I see it a bulls potential is predetermined when he is born, feeding him hard or feeding him to his "genetic potential" can only shorten their life so why do it?....well I guess you could sell more bulls that way but is the continual search for new customers worth the effort.
I like my customers to take a bull away that gains weight and fattens as he works and goes on to last to a ripe old age. Forage reared bulls are more fertile and cover more cows too, even if they are smaller. The majority of bull buyers may say they want these traits but most are tempted by the BS and buy an overfed grain burner instead - oh well their loss.
 
To play devil's advocate or just the devil to some of ya.......Why feed bulls at all? If they cant survive without feed what good are they. Grassfarmer said a bull is predetermined when he is born and then says forage raised bulls are more fertile and cover more cows! But only if he is predetermined right! :wink: If a bull has the right genetic makeup his cow could be a poor bagged non milking chain smoker and he will still do fine! Or we could all realize that any animal in good flesh is a sign of a healthy animal regardless of feed. I don't like over fat bulls and WONT buy one! They melt like my son's icecream on the 4th of July! But somebody sure must buy bulls like that cause the catalogs have lots of them. Buy what works for you, in your plan and in your climate.
 
High roughage ration without the exact ration formulation is meaningless. If the buyers don't care they won't ask. If buyers don't ask they won't know. The thing that those of us who raise our bulls without high energy rations have to do is communicate our exact feeding regime. The buyers that value the low energy slow grown approach will be interested. Here they are a small minority but growing none the less. Another way to look at the mainstreaming of at least the idea of high roughage is that there is obviously a growing acknowledgment of it's value. Though, like Just Ranchin, I find the lip service sire manure(BS) very hard to take.
 
There is a fine line between feeding a bull to find out his genetic potential and over-feeding energy which causes undesirable effects such as burnt out livers and founder. Until the day comes that cattle are no longer finished in feedlots, performance testing bulls is the best indicator cattlemen have to gauge the finishing potential of a bulls offspring. Forage testing would be great if cattle were finished on grass like they did 100 years ago. But I am afraid that horse has left the barn. When I am looking to purchase a bull I shy away from both the guys that over feed and the guys that have under fed their bulls. There is nothing worse than walking into a pen of bulls and seeing a creep feeder full of grain at their disposal.
 
leanin' H said:
Grassfarmer said a bull is predetermined when he is born and then says forage raised bulls are more fertile and cover more cows! But only if he is predetermined right! :wink: If a bull has the right genetic makeup his cow could be a poor bagged non milking chain smoker and he will still do fine!

OK, so I should have said a bull is genetically predetermined when he is born. More fertile and covering more cows I was attributing to rearing slowly on forage not the genetic component so much. If a bull has either a poor bagged non milking dam or daughter he obviously did not have the right genetic makeup.
As Dylan says the people seeking real bulls may be in the minority but their number is growing and that's good enough for me.

Elwapo, sure not everyone is fattening cattle on grass any longer but last I checked every cow in the country was expected to graze for her living. Perhaps performance testing terminal sire breeds (if we can work out which breeds they are :twisted: ) is appropriate but I believe that system to be absolutely wrong for selecting any bull you intend to keep replacement females off.
 
Our bulls maxed out at 8 lbs. of roasted grain (corn, soybeans, shredded beats, barley and cotton seed hulls). The rest is free choice low quality CRP grass hay. They have an average gain of 2.4 and adjusted YW of about 990 lbs. Back fat of about 0.2 inches. It is real interesting listening to buyers. Had a repeat customer look today saying how he really likes how my bulls are fed. About half agree with him and the other half say they could use some more weight. It seems that most will buy the fat bulls for more money, but at least I can feel good about what the bull should do for my customer. They usually look good in the fall and have good feet. We had very little problems with fertility doing it this way as well.

I know this - you can't hide the inferior bulls feeding this way and that is good. We used to take them to a bull test and gain 3.5-4 lbs./day and the bad ones looked pretty good at the end. It makes it a lot easier for me to cull the bottom and give the customers the good ones this way.

AXTELLCATTLECOMPANY.COM
 
Here is a question for all the guys that like to buy/sell or use bulls that weigh 1100+ as yearlings or 1700lbs+ as two year olds - what weight are your females at the same age? I'm guessing they are lighter? Why is it acceptable for them but not the males of the species?
 
AX- said:
I know this - you can't hide the inferior bulls feeding this way and that is good. We used to take them to a bull test and gain 3.5-4 lbs./day and the bad ones looked pretty good at the end. It makes it a lot easier for me to cull the bottom and give the customers the good ones this way.

AXTELLCATTLECOMPANY.COM

i think this deal started out with an issue about what the definition of a high roughage ration was and it is thrown around way too losly if you ask me.

everyone has their own idea of how it should be done and justifications for every one. but the quote above hits the nail on the head in my opinion. i've always felt it takes the bs out of the bs'er and gives a clear ubiased view.

on a side note (also mentioned in this thread) - seems like most of the seedstock operations are in the most unforgiving environments. cattle never see a hard day. i'm not much of a salesperson but my favorite sales pitch if you will is "their ain't no place for a cow to hide here"
 
I talked to a breeder the other day and mentioned that his bulls were getting loose. Turns out they were getting 23 lbs of grain. I gasped, reached for my heart and started convulsing. I then open up his book, and wouldn't you know it "These bulls are fed with you the customer in mind, as they are not pushed developed slowly on a high roughage ration". I wanted to beat him with his own sales catalogue.
 
The vast majority of customers want to see big fat yearlings. I was at a bull sale where they had a yearling bull breed a cow the year before so the one bull was born in january. All the rest of the bulls were march april born. This bull weighed 1700#s at 15 months of age and topped the sale was he the best bull I did'nt think so but he was the biggest.With good genetics the 1300# yearling bull is'nt that hard to attain. I had a bull calf born in march weaned November 710#s off the cow weaned on grass hay and wet cake until Jan 1st fed hay,distillars syrup and a grain mixture from Jan 1st. It was 5#s 30 days 7#s 30 day 9#s for the remaining days. The grain was whole shell corn 1/2# soybean meal 1/2# mineral. The bulls gain in that pen was 3.67#s per day they varied from 2.92#s to 4.24#s per head per day gain.The bull in question weighed 1375#s by April 15th which was 13 months of are and they were'nt pushed in my book.Just fed a ration to gain 3#s per head per day some did better than other's and you could see the differance and there were no hog fat bulls either just good solid bulls and some that were thin looking if you ask me and ended up selling for less money. In the end fat sell's and if their not fat they won't bid.
 
I talked to a breeder the other day and mentioned that his bulls were getting loose. Turns out they were getting 23 lbs of grain. I gasped, reached for my heart and started convulsing. I then open up his book, and wouldn't you know it "These bulls are fed with you the customer in mind, as they are not pushed developed slowly on a high roughage ration". I wanted to beat him with his own sales catalogue.

HOLY CRAP!!!!!! I am pushing harder than I want because of that 1100 pound target but that is outright ridiculous.

Back to the original question, If the pounds of hay excedes the pounds of grain it could be called a high roughage ration?? Reading about it makes one think of 65-70% forage though.
 
How does one take in affect the quality of hay? Late cute reeds canary/swamp grass is nowhere near the feed value as early cut clover/ryegrass/orchard grass mix. I gave up feeding grain due to cost and market opportunity. I did give up some gain but the bottomline is better with just feeding hay in my situation.
 
Denny said:
In the end fat sell's and if their not fat they won't bid.
Denny, you cut to the quick...buyers bid and buy the big and fat...seedstock producers raise what sells...then the buyers turn around and bad mouth the seedstock guy for raising what the buyers are paying for!

If you seedstock guys want to really know what you got...stop deworming and feed 100% forage...the difference between top and bottom becomes dramatic and makes culling real easy. That's how you test for "full genetic potential"!

I agree with Grassfarmer...probably because we read the same research. The genetic potential is set at conception. There are three pathways to phenotype and all go through environment and genetics is only one of them.
 
The way I look at it is its all about growing bulls in a responsible manner which I think can be described as a system that optimizes a bulls future breeding ability as opposed to the systems that compromise a bulls breeding ability.

Grassfarmer is right that a bulls genotype isn't altered by ration, but his ability to breed can be compromised by excessive or insufficient nutrition. An all forage ration of straw won,t do the job and an all they can eat forage ration of high dairy quality(150 Relative Feed Value or plus) can give you 3 lbs a day gain. Twenty lbs of corn or barley in a ration is a good way to market bulls and also a good way to compromise there future breeding performance. A good quality hay 100 rfv and 1/2% or even 1% body weight of grain won't hurt a bull and IMO shouldn't be viewed as irresponsible.

The bull Leanin H described from the poor bagged cow if he was used strictly as a terminal bull could be a great bull assuming he had all the necessary traits. If he was sold as a bull worthy of raising replacements then it's questionable that he will do fine.

To me evaluating a bull development system is only one aspect of the overall system or management a bull is a product of. To me the overall cowherd management system is of more importance than the bull development alone.

For maternal seedstock, cowherd management is my first assessment priority, length of breeding season, culling policy, degree of management and labor for calving, degree of energy supplements in the dormant season and corresponding BCS maintenance levels, cows can be thin because they are poor doers or they can be thin because they are being worked hard it is important to know the difference, degree of structural soundness of feet and udder, ect,ect. Then the bull development assessment follows.

Elwapo my preference like Grassfarmers is for the grass tested, forage raised maternal seedstock approach which we have been experimenting with since 1993 is a result of the value I perceive in identifying those bulls that are able to utilize and thrive on the primary feed stuff their daughters will be expected to make do with when they become producing range cows themselves. To me it simply isn't logical to test a maternal seed-stock bull under a development program that is entirely different than the environment his daughters will be expected to produce in. If cows spent their producing years in a feedlot being fed grain then it would make sense to test their sires that way other wise it makes about as much sense as testing physics students with an English exam.

The other aspect is that over the years I have noticed that cattle that do well on grain won't necessarily do well on grass but virtually all cattle that do well on grass will do well on grain. This is entirely anecdotal of course and if a study was done on this subject I may be proved wrong but if I were a betting man I know which way I would bet.

All this being said does that mean that there are no feed lot tested bulls of genetic merit or worth sold at these sales. No. A number of those students that pass the English test will do well in Physics just probably not the most accurate way to identify degree of aptitude for a physicist.
Nor does it mean that just because a bull is grass tested and forage raised that he is a bull of genetic merit or worth? But my guess is that if you compared population progeny adaptability or value in the range producing environment over a number of generations with all other variables being equal, the bulls that were tested and selected as the bulls of merit under the grass tested forage raised model would come out ahead.
 
I recently attended the production sale of a friends seedstock operation. His cows run like mine do but the bulls are fed through the winter on hay and or silage and what ever is the cheapest form of protein, pellets, mill run, grain etc. I have in the past been on his case about the bulls coming in too fat for the sale. So one year he made completely sure they were lean and mean (I thought they were just right). He took a beating at that sale and brought them in the next year carrying more flesh and they sold just fine. This year he had a pen of coming two in June calves that looked ready for the Calgary bull sale (fat) and took a beating for that. It appears that it is impossible to please everyone all the time. I have a half interest bull with him that I wintered this year, we will see what he thinks of a 100% forage wintering ration. :shock: Robert Mac and Grass Farmer still sum up the bottom line but from a seedstock mindset, the customer pays the bills.
 
The amount of customers wanting lean and mean bulls here is about 2%. The rest want and expect big fleshy bulls carrying some fat. I won't live long enough to change the mindset of our local customers.With 90% of your bull customers coming from a 50 mile radius of your farm or ranch you need to cater to those customers.I won't go into another sale with light end bulls it'll do more harm than good for your reputation around here. Your areas may be different but thats how ours are.
 
I can aproach this from our replacement heifer sales-the old axiom that a bred heifer has to weigh 1,000 pounds and be fat to sell well is not always the case. I think the underlying theme of all the 'my bulls won't sell unless their fat' is they are being sold at auction-the assumption then is that lard is the status quo. I've found selling private treaty is that once you explain your genetic goals to a prospective buyer they understand what you are doing.Maybe a little more 'sticking to our guns' industry wide would be beneficial. I doubt there's a cattleman worth his salt doesn't know that overfeeding a bull is detrimental to his future well being. Doing it because other guys do is a poor excuse-all that being said if fat bulls are the be all and end all why worry just sit back run your mixmills and watch the forage guys hang themselves one bale at a time.We can beat this till the cows come home but I for one won't buy a bull that's been castrated with a feed bucket.
 

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