Bulls- High forage ration?????

[Yanuck]

This gave me an idea, how about some sort of "Angie's List" for bull buyers. A website where users can posts seedstock producers, then select ratings and write reviews on their experiences. Potential buyers could then use this resource as an aid in selecting a source to buy their bulls.

It would work great but remember it would only be as good as the honesty and integrity of who has the complaints against the seed stock producer....I have heard of one commercial guy that uses a bull and complains about him so the seed stock producer told him to run him to his local auction market and gave him full credit and the commercial guy buys back the same bull for weigh up price. It hasn't happened to us but another seed stock producer warned us about it.

have a good one

lazy ace

or the guys who writes a rubber check, or doesn't write a check for 8 months, or the bull gets a wire cut that has nothing to do with a breeding injury...the list could go on for both sides.... why don't those of you who complain about seedstock producers go out and buy some purebred cows and go into business for yourselves?

 

[Northern Rancher]

Just find out who your comfortable with doing business with and do business with them. When i warranty heifers I just give them their money back or if they would rather have another heifer or cow we do that. I absolutely hate bull sale credits there's bad outfits on both sides of the bull deal for sure.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

This gave me an idea, how about some sort of "Angie's List" for bull buyers. A website where users can posts seedstock producers, then select ratings and write reviews on their experiences. Potential buyers could then use this resource as an aid in selecting a source to buy their bulls.

It would work great but remember it would only be as good as the honesty and integrity of who has the complaints against the seed stock producer....I have heard of one commercial guy that uses a bull and complains about him so the seed stock producer told him to run him to his local auction market and gave him full credit and the commercial guy buys back the same bull for weigh up price. It hasn't happened to us but another seed stock producer warned us about it.

have a good one

lazy ace

or the guys who writes a rubber check, or doesn't write a check for 8 months, or the bull gets a wire cut that has nothing to do with a breeding injury...the list could go on for both sides.... why don't those of you who complain about seedstock producers go out and buy some purebred cows and go into business for yourselves?

I have only had one bad experience with a guy in Colorado he told me the bull was lame and he wanted his money back. So I asked some questions about the lameness and he was unable or unwilling to come up with any specifics. I had his helps phone # and asked him what was wrong with the bull and he said there was nothing wrong with him, apparently the purchaser was just mad at the bull because the bull had been difficult to get out of the cows at the end of the breeding season.

 

[lazy ace]

It would work great but remember it would only be as good as the honesty and integrity of who has the complaints against the seed stock producer....I have heard of one commercial guy that uses a bull and complains about him so the seed stock producer told him to run him to his local auction market and gave him full credit and the commercial guy buys back the same bull for weigh up price. It hasn't happened to us but another seed stock producer warned us about it.

have a good one

lazy ace

or the guys who writes a rubber check, or doesn't write a check for 8 months, or the bull gets a wire cut that has nothing to do with a breeding injury...the list could go on for both sides.... why don't those of you who complain about seedstock producers go out and buy some purebred cows and go into business for yourselves?

I have only had one bad experience with a guy in Colorado he told me the bull was lame and he wanted his money back. So I asked some questions about the lameness and he was unable or unwilling to come up with any specifics. I had his helps phone # and asked him what was wrong with the bull and he said there was nothing wrong with him, apparently the purchaser was just mad at the bull because the bull had been difficult to get out of the cows at the end of the breeding season.

well put yanuck it is a two way street..... responsible cattlemen are fun and great to deal with but there always is something that comes up.

Curious Dylan what did you do with your customer? If you didn't do anything did he come back?

have a good one

lazy ace

 

[Grassfarmer]

thats what we feed ours, no grass as we have 3 to 4 feet of snow,they have salt and mineral, they walk a mile or so for water, and we have some rather large "sisters"

How large and what quality of hay would be my next questions.

we sold some culls awhile back that weighed 1700 and 1710, and we feed 1st and 2nd cutting alfalfa

I guess that blows all conventional wisdom on feed requirements then. Most rations based on feed dry matter weight as % of cows bodyweight would indicate that 25lbs would support an 1100lb bred cow in winter if the cold wasn't too severe. That's before allowing for feed wastage.
I have a friend who had a small purebred red Angus herd and kept meticulous records weighing his hay bales and cattle regularly. His cows averaged around 1380lbs at that time if memory serves me correctly. One year through November and December his cows consumed 48lbs of hay/day on average. It was cold weather and the cows had been rearing too long in my opinion so went into the spell leaner than I like cows. None the less they did consume 48lbs of hay (less a little wastage of course)

 

[Grassfarmer]

If your cows have any milk they should raise these kind of calves without all the extra feed costs. for the record I sale alot of hay so I know what my bales weigh and I winter on 25 lbs per cow per day jan. thru 1st of may most years this one a little less.

I was talking about a scale to weigh cattle rather than hay but I guess both are relevant. How heavy are your cows that can winter on 25lbs of hay and is this their sole ration or do they have grass to graze as well?

My cows average between 12 and 1400 lbs. I try to leave some grass for them to pick at. I have one winter pasture that I only run culls in during the summer that by this time is pretty short so am moving them over some summer pastures to give them a little extra. I didn't have my hay tested this year but in years past it has run between 117 and 158 in relative feed value with most toward the upper end. Until I got on here I never realized that anyone fed more than 25 lbs as that is what I learned is supposed to be enough to maintain body condition but then I try like hell to bring my cows into winter in good condition and try not to let them slip even if it means feeding them in december. still the rule of thumb is a ton and a half to winter them till grass.

Thanks Cowboyup, 25lbs was the theory in Scotland too - for those 1100lb cows that also had generally unlimited by weather access to low quality old grass. I would consider the hay more supplementary feeding than a complete ration. Nothing wrong with that either - a great way to run cattle if conditions allow. I guess only drylotting the cows would show the total feed requirements of the cows.

 

[Silver]

Over the last 60 years on this place we have always used the same numbers to figure out the feed requirements of the herd. Weather and feed quality have been the only variables to have a noticeable affect of hay consumption. During these 60 years the size and breeding of the cows has changed quite substantially. On the high end back in the eighties the cows may have averaged in the 1600 lb range. On the low end back in the '50's I understand they were in that 1000 lb range. And still the basice hay requirements remain the same. Go figure.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

or the guys who writes a rubber check, or doesn't write a check for 8 months, or the bull gets a wire cut that has nothing to do with a breeding injury...the list could go on for both sides.... why don't those of you who complain about seedstock producers go out and buy some purebred cows and go into business for yourselves?

I have only had one bad experience with a guy in Colorado he told me the bull was lame and he wanted his money back. So I asked some questions about the lameness and he was unable or unwilling to come up with any specifics. I had his helps phone # and asked him what was wrong with the bull and he said there was nothing wrong with him, apparently the purchaser was just mad at the bull because the bull had been difficult to get out of the cows at the end of the breeding season.

well put yanuck it is a two way street..... responsible cattlemen are fun and great to deal with but there always is something that comes up.

Curious Dylan what did you do with your customer? If you didn't do anything did he come back?

have a good one

lazy ace

Lazy Ace, after speaking to his help who was a real nice young guy from Wyoming and finding out the bull was not lame and that the purchaser had lied to me I must admit I felt no obligation to address his dissatisfaction and told him so, especially when he was unable to give me any specifics as to the bull unsoundness and became rather rude and belligerent in response to my request for information. So he remained dissatisfied and I didn't get any further business from him which I wasn't especially unhappy about. This was back in the mid nineties and in hindsight it may have been a good idea to address his dissatisfaction even though it wasn't what I considered legitimate. It is a possibility that had I addressed his dissatisfaction he may of become a loyal customer or he may have continued to try and take advantage of me considering I would have had to drive 17 hours to confirm the legitimacy of his complaints.

 

[Ben H]

This gave me an idea, how about some sort of "Angie's List" for bull buyers. A website where users can posts seedstock producers, then select ratings and write reviews on their experiences. Potential buyers could then use this resource as an aid in selecting a source to buy their bulls.

It would work great but remember it would only be as good as the honesty and integrity of who has the complaints against the seed stock producer....I have heard of one commercial guy that uses a bull and complains about him so the seed stock producer told him to run him to his local auction market and gave him full credit and the commercial guy buys back the same bull for weigh up price. It hasn't happened to us but another seed stock producer warned us about it.

have a good one

lazy ace

or the guys who writes a rubber check, or doesn't write a check for 8 months, or the bull gets a wire cut that has nothing to do with a breeding injury...the list could go on for both sides.... why don't those of you who complain about seedstock producers go out and buy some purebred cows and go into business for yourselves?

What I proposed doesn't have to be seen as a negative, I would hope that it would effectively reward those who deserve a good reputation by positive feedback from satisfied customers.

 

[lazy ace]

It would work great but remember it would only be as good as the honesty and integrity of who has the complaints against the seed stock producer....I have heard of one commercial guy that uses a bull and complains about him so the seed stock producer told him to run him to his local auction market and gave him full credit and the commercial guy buys back the same bull for weigh up price. It hasn't happened to us but another seed stock producer warned us about it.

have a good one

lazy ace

or the guys who writes a rubber check, or doesn't write a check for 8 months, or the bull gets a wire cut that has nothing to do with a breeding injury...the list could go on for both sides.... why don't those of you who complain about seedstock producers go out and buy some purebred cows and go into business for yourselves?

What I proposed doesn't have to be seen as a negative, I would hope that it would effectively reward those who deserve a good reputation by positive feedback from satisfied customers.

Oh for sure Ben I didn't mean to jump to that side so quickly. I apologize for that. I think you may have a good idea.

Hey Dylan it probably worked out for the best you can't satisfy everyone 100% of the time and you can't spend 100% of your time trying to satisfy someone.

have a good one

lazy ace

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Thanks Lazy Ace

I will do my best!

 

[Dylan Biggs]

How large and what quality of hay would be my next questions.

we sold some culls awhile back that weighed 1700 and 1710, and we feed 1st and 2nd cutting alfalfa

I guess that blows all conventional wisdom on feed requirements then. Most rations based on feed dry matter weight as % of cows bodyweight would indicate that 25lbs would support an 1100lb bred cow in winter if the cold wasn't too severe. That's before allowing for feed wastage.
I have a friend who had a small purebred red Angus herd and kept meticulous records weighing his hay bales and cattle regularly. His cows averaged around 1380lbs at that time if memory serves me correctly. One year through November and December his cows consumed 48lbs of hay/day on average. It was cold weather and the cows had been rearing too long in my opinion so went into the spell leaner than I like cows. None the less they did consume 48lbs of hay (less a little wastage of course)

Grassfarmer we have not weighed our mature cow herd in a while, but we are going to do it again just for comparison sake. My guess is if we weigh them the same time in their production cycle as the last time they will weigh about 50 lbs lighter. The last time we weighed in the late fall right before weaning we scored them BCS 4.5 (U.S.) scale right at frame 5 and they averaged 1175lbs. As far as winter feed requirements assuming we had 95 to 100 rfv hay in adequate supply so that was all we had to feed. 25 years of winter feeding in this god forsaken country you had better plan on at least 35lbs /hd/day. When you hit extended spells, 3 weeks or more of -40 to -45 at night and -35 to -30 daytime high with any wind at all they can easily eat 48 lbs. Dec 24 of 1994 I think, we had a couple of days of -45 with a wind that put the windchill adj temp at -95. There is nothing to stop the wind out here, just a few slab wind breaks. To be prepared for a long miserable winter starting Nov 1 and ending mid April(1997 it stayed cold till the last week -35 nite -25 day with lots of days of wind) I always calculate for at least 40 lbs. Now thank goodness we haven't had one of those really miserable winters for a while.

 

[PureCountry]

Dylan, we are doing both, selling halves or parting out. At the farmer's market it's all parts and pieces. A 1/2 at 350 lbs - hanging 'rail' weight - sells for $4/lb, including cutting and wrapping. That's basic cuts only. If people want jerky, sausages, etc, those items are extra due to - as you know - processing at the abbattoir.