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bgc

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Ok I need a little information/advice. I have a group of angus crossbred cows (most are solid black and over 75% angus). I have recently been infusing some simm genetics and my cows almost all fall between frame 5-6. All average 1000 pounds. I do not want to add any more continental genetics and I would like to stay within the angus breed, but I would like to add some serious thickness to my cows. I really like my simangus cows and they are really thick but the frame just keeps getting bigger and bigger and I don't like that. I would really like to get to frame 4.5-5.5 and weighing 1250lbs. Genetically my cows are mostly influenced by (angus) Connealy Lead On, Butch's Connection, Gar Predestined, and (Simm) Daume Legend.

What angus bulls are going to move me towards adding thickness without sacrificing my maternal ability, fertility, color, docility, and growth. I really like the look of the Scottish cattle (Dunlouise Jipsey Earl) just not completely sold on all the grass based genetics out there.
 
It is a different part of the country for sure, but I think you need to weigh your cows, as I don't think you would be frame 5-6 @ 1000 lbs. Those cows should weigh more than that if any flesh at all.

You want to go down 1-1.5 in frame score but add 250# to your average weight. Not really sure that is possible.
 
yup, what he said--weigh 'em.

here's a guy who thinks almost all angus are bastardized and buys--and goes to look first---Scottish, new Zealand and--I think--either argentine or brazil stock.

http://www.saddlebutteranch.com/philosophy.html
 
Beam me up Scottie!!!!!!!!!
LOL

This topic is starting trend for the grazers to start bragging how small
their cows ( cattle ) are ,,,,,,,
 
Cattleman35 said:
It is a different part of the country for sure, but I think you need to weigh your cows, as I don't think you would be frame 5-6 @ 1000 lbs. Those cows should weigh more than that if any flesh at all.

You want to go down 1-1.5 in frame score but add 250# to your average weight. Not really sure that is possible.
Click to expand...

I agree. I know of no 1000# cows and I see a lot of 'em. 1000+# bred heifers are getting more and more common. :shock:

If I were you, I would look to Ohlde cattle. Ohlde is located in Kansas.
They have a PROGRAM that would closely fit what you are looking for.
It's not hit and miss, it's a consistent program. Lots of line breeding to
stay on track. IMO.

Another option would be to talk to Denny about his Viking GD60 line of cattle.

And as far as grass-based genetics...aren't all cattle bred to eat grass?
:D

Good luck! Let us know what you decide. I'm sure you will get more
suggestions.
 
I have weighed my cows and yes most of my cows are between frame 5 and 6, and the majority of them weigh just over 1000lbs. I do have some cows that are getting closer to the frame 6 side that will weigh 1200. They are in good shape as well, they just do not have the kind of thickness that I want on my cows. My ideal cow would be just under frame 5 and weigh over 1200 and do that on grass and mineral for 300 days per year and approx. 65 days per year eating good quality hay and getting 2.5lbs of grain per day when the weather gets bad.

In reference to the 1000lb bred heifers..... just makes me think of some gargantuan framed monster. My target weight for my heifers at breeding is 650lbs.

I have talked to Tim Ohlde quite a bit on the phone a few years ago and he has a quality operation. My neighbor actually uses a lot of Tim's genetics and he likes them. My neighbor is trying to hit the grassfed market and the Ohlde genetics help get him there. He takes a hit at the salebarn if he markets any calves outside the grassfed market because his calves are too short. I do not want to be in that boat. I still need to be able to get the growth on my calves in the feedlot to satisfy the customer. That being said Tim does have a couple bulls I have looked at but its hard to find a son out of them to buy that isn't out of more Ohlde stuff and therefore makes him too short or that isn't crazy expensive.

Yes all cattle are bred to eat grass and should be fed grass 99% of the time but I meant that I do not need to try to hit the grass fed market that a lot of these smaller framed cattle are designed for.
 
If you want to go down in frame and up in weight angus will not do it. They don't have the base width or muscle to get it accomplished. In all seriousness what would do you the most good would be Hoodoo Charolais. Before everyone tells me how bad charolais are and big and on and on you have to look up the Hoodoo deal. And to clarify a lot of club calf breeders have tied into it but the herd was based on functionality. We winter graze in Wyoming with no hay and 1.5 lbs of Loomix and they are the best looking cows out there. Functional, milk, maternal, charolais, with muscle and rib and small framed. 4.5 - 5.5. Simmental will just get bigger as you have seen, you might also look up green valley cattle as they have some maine anjou that might fit what you are looking for.
 
McCumber Angus in North Dakota will probably fit the bill for the type of cattle that you want. If smaller framed is your ball of wax then by golly they've got some good ones. The Angus breed definitely covers all frame sizes and philosophies of breeding. My replacement heifers are closer to that 1,000 lb. size so I guess I'll step aside from offering advice. I appreciate several production models but I pay my cow cost by the head, period. :roll:
 
bgc- Here is the place that can give you what you want, maternal bloodlines, moderate framed with a long production history :
http://www.diamonddangus.com/

And when I talked to them about 2-3 weeks ago they had bulls for sale private treaty..
 
If you have been infusing simmi genetics into your cows and they only weigh 1000# you might try cutting back on about 1/3 of your cows and providing the same amount of feed as you are now.
 
bgc said:
I have weighed my cows and yes most of my cows are between frame 5 and 6, and the majority of them weigh just over 1000lbs. I do have some cows that are getting closer to the frame 6 side that will weigh 1200. They are in good shape as well, they just do not have the kind of thickness that I want on my cows. My ideal cow would be just under frame 5 and weigh over 1200 and do that on grass and mineral for 300 days per year and approx. 65 days per year eating good quality hay and getting 2.5lbs of grain per day when the weather gets bad.

In reference to the 1000lb bred heifers..... just makes me think of some gargantuan framed monster. My target weight for my heifers at breeding is 650lbs.

I have talked to Tim Ohlde quite a bit on the phone a few years ago and he has a quality operation. My neighbor actually uses a lot of Tim's genetics and he likes them. My neighbor is trying to hit the grassfed market and the Ohlde genetics help get him there. He takes a hit at the salebarn if he markets any calves outside the grassfed market because his calves are too short. I do not want to be in that boat. I still need to be able to get the growth on my calves in the feedlot to satisfy the customer. That being said Tim does have a couple bulls I have looked at but its hard to find a son out of them to buy that isn't out of more Ohlde stuff and therefore makes him too short or that isn't crazy expensive.

Yes all cattle are bred to eat grass and should be fed grass 99% of the time but I meant that I do not need to try to hit the grass fed market that a lot of these smaller framed cattle are designed for.
Click to expand...

With that being said, I think we would appreciate some pictures as we as
a group tend to doubt 1000# 5-6 frame cows. It would be interesting to
see what you have.

The 1000#+ heifers I mentioned were Bred Heifers in the late fall, not virgin heifers in the spring. Just to clear that up.

If Ohlde cattle are too short, I don't know if you are going to get done what
you are wanting to do. Diamond D has good cattle, but they are similar to Ohlde and have some of the same genetics. When you go down in frame
size, you also go down in length of body and that takes away weight. Length weighs for sure. I could tell you to check out Shoshone Angus, Larry Leonhardt, Cowley, Wy. He has linebred for decades, but his cattle aren't all that small. He'd sure be a person to talk to, as he knows more about Angus
genetics than just about anyone in the USA. If you want his phone number,
PM me and I will provide it.

I hope you can provide us some pictures of what your cows are currently.
 
greybeard said:
If you have been infusing simmi genetics into your cows and they only weigh 1000# you might try cutting back on about 1/3 of your cows and providing the same amount of feed as you are now.
Click to expand...

I used to run about twice as many cows on the same ground as I do now - - - made hay all over the county and hauled it home - - - chopped silage and fed it.

Cut back on numbers now stockpile grass and feed little hay and no silage and am clearing more money at the end.

Less work, fewer cows to care for and more money - - - I wish I had come up on this several years ago! Number of calves sold is good for bragging but money for the family after expenses is better!
 
smiley-with-zipped-mouth.jpg
 
Sorry guys I do not have a way to upload pictures. My cows really are between frame 5 and 6 and weigh just over 1000lbs. They are in good condition and produce calves every year. Im running in the 90%-93% range on calves weaned per cow exposed. In the drought year I fell to 88%.
I have looked at Diamond D and saddle butte ranch and I like their ideas if I could just blend the two together it would be great. They both have some great genetics I would like to tap into the only issue is they are too far away. Both are located in Montana and while they both have bull sales it is generally not a good idea to take a bull from higher altitude and put him in the fescue pastures of Missouri. He will probably die and if he survives he will be useless for a long period of time. I need to find someone close with sons from these genetics that are trying to do the same thing these two producers are doing. It wont help me much if their cows are big framed mainstream cows and they breed to these bulls. Only gives me half of what Im looking for.

I have looked again at some of my neighbor(coop producer for Pharo Cattle Co) and I still think they are too small. They are using bulls that don't even register on the frame scale. The cattle are extremely think and they survive on nothing but what is growing on their pastures. No hay, No grain, almost no supplements at all. They do use a few range cubes to keep them gentled down and for moving pastures but that's all. They are very functional cattle but have very little desirability to the cattle buyer unless you can hit the grassfed market which he does with all his steers. I just cant see using these genetics on my cows. I think I would have all kinds of different sized calves.

If you know of anyone in or close to Missouri with the type of genetics I am looking for let me know.
 
bgc said:
Sorry guys I do not have a way to upload pictures. My cows really are between frame 5 and 6 and weigh just over 1000lbs. They are in good condition and produce calves every year. Im running in the 90%-93% range on calves weaned per cow exposed. In the drought year I fell to 88%.
I have looked at Diamond D and saddle butte ranch and I like their ideas if I could just blend the two together it would be great. They both have some great genetics I would like to tap into the only issue is they are too far away. Both are located in Montana and while they both have bull sales it is generally not a good idea to take a bull from higher altitude and put him in the fescue pastures of Missouri. He will probably die and if he survives he will be useless for a long period of time. I need to find someone close with sons from these genetics that are trying to do the same thing these two producers are doing. It wont help me much if their cows are big framed mainstream cows and they breed to these bulls. Only gives me half of what Im looking for.

I have looked again at some of my neighbor(coop producer for Pharo Cattle Co) and I still think they are too small. They are using bulls that don't even register on the frame scale. The cattle are extremely think and they survive on nothing but what is growing on their pastures. No hay, No grain, almost no supplements at all. They do use a few range cubes to keep them gentled down and for moving pastures but that's all. They are very functional cattle but have very little desirability to the cattle buyer unless you can hit the grassfed market which he does with all his steers. I just cant see using these genetics on my cows. I think I would have all kinds of different sized calves.

If you know of anyone in or close to Missouri with the type of genetics I am looking for let me know.
Click to expand...

This is just a suggestion. Why don't you call Diamond D and Saddle Butte and talked to them? I'll bet they have sold bulls into Missouri
or near there and they could connect you with those people. That's what I would do. :D

I certainly agree with this statement: " It wont help me much if their cows are big framed mainstream cows and they breed to these bulls."
It takes a long time to breed consistency. I think it is Ben Lawson who says, "one like the sire, one like the dam, and one in the middle."

As far as uploading pictures, if you have them saved to your computer we
can help you upload them. I use www.postimages.com and it's very user
friendly.
 
If your looking for lower framed cattle with more punch than Diamond D, Saddle Butte, or Ohlde you should check out Jorgensen Land and Cattle in South Dakota. They are really thick, and line bred so they will throw a real consistent crop of calves. They will gain weight on feed with the best cattle in the country.
 
I was in the same boat as you were 20 years ago bgc, 6 frame cows, pencil guts, frail, rafter backed, you name it I had it. It was my own fault because I was the one buying the Angus bulls. In 1997 we started infusing Jorgensen genetics from river rat's herd since they are a cooperator herd for Jorgensen's. At first my Dad thought the cattle were getting too small but it's an illusion because they started adding volume and capacity. They didn't gain any frame but probably added 200 pounds of thickness. Now when you look at my 2 year old heifers they look like a cow, deep and broody and breed back is awesome. I wish I had taken pictures of my heifers at weaning time back in the 90's, pathetic!

I know they sell hundreds of bulls every year in Florida so they could handle your climate. I seriously think you should consider them.
 
The cows at Diamond D graze pivots of alfalfa the cattle don't perform very well in the real world I've used one and a bull customer has had a few they were 3 years olds last year when I seen them and the 3 year olds I sold him were way better in body condition they get ran pretty tough where they live now and it was'nt to their liking.Cattle I had were very low birth weight heifer bull that had bowling ball shaped calves all head and shoulders was'nt good.

Ohlde cattle will thicken them up but be careful as they will downsize in a hurry and they are very agressive mothers towards the human tagging the calf.The ones we have don't tolerate being worked thru the chutes very well they get hot headed in a hurry. But the udders and the fleshing ability are a plus.

Saddle Butte I know nothing of but reading the pedigrees I'd use them.
 
Denny - Thanks for the information. I had already heard that about Diamond D and had all but crossed them off the list. Hearing it from someone else just got them nixed. As far as the ohlde cattle are concerned I hadn't heard that about their temperament. I cannot and will not put up with cattle that are not easy to handle or be around. Just not worth the risk. I wonder tho if it comes from the Ohlde side of the genetics or the cows that the bulls were put on? Im not disputing what you say just asking questions.

Swede and Rat - I am on Jorgensen's web page right now doing some research. They don't seem to provide very much info on their website so I might just have to call and discuss it with them.
 

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