Calving later?

[Big Swede]

John SD I hear you when you talk about Alpha 7 at birth. I switched to that program about 10 years ago and it was like a miracle vaccine. It virtually eliminated my overeating problems, but then a few years ago I noticed I was getting a few show up again and now it seems like I'm back where I was years ago. Nothing is more aggravating to find a big month old calf bloated up dead in the morning when he was perfectly healthy the night before.

Also NR I appreciate your comments on rotating pastures. I can see where there might be a problem if you opened the gate and called them just as a cow is calving. Most cows are so eager to get a mouthful of new grass that they might forget they even have a new calf. I'll need to be careful.

 

[RobertMac]

Ya I agree. For what we are doing and the way we treat our cows, we probably have to much milk. But that is a tough thing to fix. Like all the rest of the EPDs, the milk is creeping higher and higher every year. When the average that use to be 12, now it is 17. I would like all of ours to be somewhere around 15, but it seems that the bulls that I select for by visual appearance, and mothers looks, productivity, & structure, the milk number always seems to be 20+. Not real sure how to change that trend. But, that really has nothing to do with the shape or structure of the udder.

There's the problem with EPDs...good tool used wrong. Who is going to buy and use a bull that has below average EPDs?

The fix is simple...

Funny thing about following Mother Nature's model.......we do it for a while and suddenly we realise that it actually works, and it's pretty tough to improve on, or the old girl woulda done it herself already.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I don't cull on udders per se but if the calf can't get going himself she comes in dry.The poorer uddered cows we usually A'I south devon and feed out all the calves. what I was getting at was calving on grass won't wreck an udder that is structurally very sound. the milk thing in the Angus breed is getting beyond ridiculous-maybe $5 corn will help fix it. we have guys up here calve 1800 pound exotic cows in February that milk like anything-than go ahead and creep feed the calves. THEIR COWS NOT SOWS LOL.

 

[gcreekrch]

We moved from Feb. 25 to Mar 10 to Apr 1 over the last 10 years, would like to go later but our unfenced summer grass situation doesn't lend itself well to checking calvy cows. Our Apr 1 date allows us to calve our cows in an area where it is usually bared off under the trees and our cows have a fairly dry place to calve We check cows at 11:00 pm then at 5:00 am and various times during the day, more at night if nasty weather. Heifers get a check at 2:00 am also, the hfr bull we've used the last 4 years has been a dream to calve to but you never know with heifers. I agree with NR and PureCountry that not all cows realize that they can look after themselves. We turned over a lot of cows in order to find ones that know they can. A lot of cows are pretty good at self maintenance if you stay out of their way and let them do their job. (this project is still a workin' progress) Like PureCountry we would rather have a little less milk than more labor. Our June 20 turn out date for bulls coinsides with highest growth of forage.Having cows gaining weight is a very important factor when trying to get them to cycle and conceive. As was said earlier the calf weights are off a little but cost and labor are down too. A good rancher once told me it takes 200 days for a calf to be 200 days old!

 

[Anonymous]

I've got the AI calves out of the registered heifers on the ground - cows should start in about a week or so....
Wish I was calving right now- as the temp today got to 60 degrees- almost unheard of up here this time of March... :shock: Supposed to be an Arctic front move in this weekend to lower temps- so thats when they'll start.... :roll:

But you never know when a blizzard will hit...We never and most the oldtimers never used to turn bulls out til at least the 4th of July-- but now since I started bringing cows to the hay meadows to calve out- and can watch them closer, I like to start mid March- be pretty much done by the end of April with the drag alongs calving on grass on their own and only getting checked every few days...

 

[Big Swede]

Hey Oldtimer, that brings up another point I was thinking about. I can just about guarantee my grandfather never calved until early summer, probably because they didn't have the facilities or the protection that later tree groves provided. My Dad tells about the blizzard of 66 which hit about the first week of March and he hadn't started calving yet luckily.

At what point did ranchers begin this madness of calving in cold weather? I kick myself every time I'm calving in bad weather or maybe even worse getting a bunch of calves in a warm spell and then see them go through a bad storm.

Did we at some point decide that pounds at weaning trumped every other aspect of the cow-calf production cycle? For some of us that is a very important part of our operation because selling calves right off the cow is our program and we still sell calves by the pound.

I'm not disrespecting anyones practices but I for one am willing to try something different.

 

[Doug Thorson]

A question/comment about the logistics.
I breed on the peak of the grass figuring on very good conception rate.
Logistics also tells me that a 2 month old calf is also better enabled to utilize the peak grass than a calf sucking a cow.
To get rid of any scours I turn pairs out daily into a larger(1/4 section) pasture.
Other than the possibility of an April storm, what am I missing?

 

[Soapweed]

A question/comment about the logistics.
I breed on the peak of the grass figuring on very good conception rate.
Logistics also tells me that a 2 month old calf is also better enabled to utilize the peak grass than a calf sucking a cow.
To get rid of any scours I turn pairs out daily into a larger(1/4 section) pasture.
Other than the possibility of an April storm, what am I missing?

The convenience of Angus. Just joking. Kinda. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Oldtimer, that brings up another point I was thinking about. I can just about guarantee my grandfather never calved until early summer, probably because they didn't have the facilities or the protection that later tree groves provided. My Dad tells about the blizzard of 66 which hit about the first week of March and he hadn't started calving yet luckily.

At what point did ranchers begin this madness of calving in cold weather? I kick myself every time I'm calving in bad weather or maybe even worse getting a bunch of calves in a warm spell and then see them go through a bad storm.

Did we at some point decide that pounds at weaning trumped every other aspect of the cow-calf production cycle? For some of us that is a very important part of our operation because selling calves right off the cow is our program and we still sell calves by the pound.

I'm not disrespecting anyones practices but I for one am willing to try something different.

I think your right...It was in the 70's and 80's, about the same time as the bigger, better, faster cattle and bulls took hold...I think a lot of it came with the importing of the Continental breeds- then every breeders endeavor to make the angus/shorthorn/hereford the size of the Continentals with the same 600+, 700+,800+ weaning weights :roll:- and the larger frame size/weights that buyers were wanting ....Everyone started moving calving up- building calving barns- and putting in a whole lot more work than they used to...
But back prior to the 70's many of the larger ranch's never fed anything either- leaving the cattle to graze all winter even in this country- expecting to have a major death loss once every 7-10 years (cheaper than feeding)...And they almost had to let the cows get a little green grass in them and have time to rebuild their condition and strength before they started calving...

 

[BRG]

OT,

You can still graze all winter if you want too. Our cows are not small, but they aren't big either and we don't feed any hay/grain to our cow herd in the winter as we save grass for them. They are actually happier and in better shape grazing than they used to be when we fed during the winter. It doesn't matter what size they are, but it does matter how they are built.

 

[John SD]

With 60s temps today, it would have been a great day for calving here. But those spring storms can still wreak havoc. Every storm calving season misses is one the calves don't have to go through in the weather. They can sit it out inside mama!

There was a good old fashioned 3 day blizzard the first week of April '97 that sure killed a lot of calves in this area. I was fortunate than I had barely started calving and the girls hadn't got any momentum going yet.

Yes, there can be May blizzards too. Usually those don't last so long. A guy kinda has to pick his calving season and take his chances.

 

[Doug Thorson]

At what point did ranchers begin this madness of calving in cold weather

My grandfather was the only one in this part of the world that calved early. He calved in late Feb in the 1940's. We stayed there or earlier until Dad retired. He moved to town and I moved calving to April.

ps I just remembered one other disadvantage. Selling 750 pound steers tommorrow. Maybe it would be better to sell 700 pounders in mid April.

 

[WyomingRancher]

There's the problem with EPDs...good tool used wrong. Who is going to buy and use a bull that has below average EPDs?

I'll buy a bull with below average EPDs.

I think if a bull matches the phenotype I look for, (the kind that works for me usually), I may overlook some below average EPDs, especially in regards to growth and milk traits.

I like to shoot for moderation, not maximization At the end of the day, the bull better produce females which will work for my environment or I'm only shooting my long-term herd goals in the foot.

 

[Anonymous]

OT,

You can still graze all winter if you want too. Our cows are not small, but they aren't big either and we don't feed any hay/grain to our cow herd in the winter as we save grass for them. They are actually happier and in better shape grazing than they used to be when we fed during the winter. It doesn't matter what size they are, but it does matter how they are built.

And when I saw that done in our winter of 2001-2- one guy lost 400+ head before the Sheriff/HSUS/Bankers made him get some hay and start feeding.... :shock:

 

[BRG]

Well ya. When a winter like that comes around you need to do something different. Even horses were dieing that year. We always have some hay around just in case. In 2002 when we droughted out, we sent the cows away. No plan works all the time, but it does work most of the time.

 

[Anonymous]

Well ya. When a winter like that comes around you need to do something different. Even horses were dieing that year. We always have some hay around just in case. In 2002 when we droughted out, we sent the cows away. No plan works all the time, but it does work most of the time.

Yeah- I know BRG-- its just that we get that type winter often enough (or it seems we did)- and are not in the Chinook zone (which is 60 miles south of us) that almost everyone I know now has some type of feed put up to feed with...I like to keep enough old hay on hand to feed from Oct to May if I have to since some years they can't find grass during that long a period.....
My cows are still grazing- but the hay meadows they are on is getting short so they are getting some hay too....

 

[Big Swede]

I haven't heard many comments on tagging calves in this type of calving situation except for you BRG. I know you have a registered operation so you need to but for commercial cattle is tagging really necessary? I used to production test my cow herd and get individual weights on calves but I never really used the info to cull cows because we were building our herd at the time. Are there going to be enough mismatches while range calving to warrant this job? I don't know, I'm asking.

 

[rancherfred]

We start calving May 15. I think the question of tagging largely depends on what your management style is. It really all depends on what you want to do with them down the road. If you are calving on the pasture that they will stay on for the rest of the time on the cow and you aren't using performance testing, then I don't see any need for it.

Our own herd is tagged and tattooed at the same time. That way, even if we don't put in EID they are still eligible for age and source verification.

I think these stories of people having bad luck with breed back with late calving is more an issue of having the wrong type of cow, instead of being indicative of a problem with late calving. For years now the industry has been breeding milk into the cow so they will be able to feed a calf well on hay, then breed back on lush green grass. When you move later you are going to ask the same cow to perform the same when her body is thrown out of sync with what she is used to. Instead of feeding the calf on hay, suddenly the lush grass is what is driving milk production. Now she can start having bag problems. The weakness was hidden by the production environment she was operating in. The same is true of breed back. If you have a problem with breed back, the cows need changing, not the calving season. Keep in mind that a later calving season is just returning to what nature has been doing for eons. We ranchers are the ones that screwed stuff up by deciding to redesign the cow to calve in a snow bank and pour milk out on dry hay to keep a calf alive until the green grass starts showing up.

Having said all of that, when we shifted to later calving we never saw a decrease in conception rate. We shifted calving from the end of February to the middle of May over several years so the problem cows may have slowly eliminated themselves.

The people that can point to all sorts of problems and reasons not to switch to later calving really don't want to do it anyway. It really doesn't matter the real reason, if you want to do something bad enough you will figure out a way to make it work. If you don't want to do something very badly, and are more comfortable with the way things were, then the first obstacle that pops up is reason to turn around and go back to the familiar. That is fine, to each his own. But if you really want to move calving later you will figure out how to handle each new challenge as it arises. Believe me, the challenges don't end, they just change shape.

By the way, the storm in April of '97 that John mentioned is the storm that convinced us to change calving seasons. Prior to that storm we were better than 100% survival rate because of several sets of twins. After the storm was over we had lost over 10% of our calf crop in one night. My dad said at the time: "It is my fault that all of those calves died. It was my choice when to turn bulls out and I knew that we always get bad storms in March." I will leave the cattle business before I will go back to winter calving.

 

[Doug Thorson]

I like to shoot for moderation, not maximization At the end of the day, the bull better produce females which will work for my environment or I'm only shooting my long-term herd goals in the foot.

After my own heart. Every bull I have ever bought has been maternal first, paternal to follow.

I haven't heard many comments on tagging calves in this type of calving situation

I had some cows out a few years back that calved in the Moreau River Brakes. At branding I had a guy putting tags in the calves. Then when I checked them during the summer I was able to match them up. A commercial guy would only need to know the 10% top and bottom.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I like to shoot for moderation, not maximization At the end of the day, the bull better produce females which will work for my environment or I'm only shooting my long-term herd goals in the foot.

After my own heart. Every bull I have ever bought has been maternal first, paternal to follow.

I haven't heard many comments on tagging calves in this type of calving situation

I had some cows out a few years back that calved in the Moreau River Brakes. At branding I had a guy putting tags in the calves. Then when I checked them during the summer I was able to match them up. A commercial guy would only need to know the 10% top and bottom.

i get some strange looks when i say "Moderation in excess". :lol: