Big Swede
Well-known member
Rancherfred, I've only been a part of this forum for a short time, but that was one of the best posts I think I have ever read.
Calving later?
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Northern Rancher
Well-known member
I get most of mine tagged until they hit the bush pasture-if it's wet and they cross the muskkeg they're pretty hard to get too. It doesn't take much of a horse or a roper to catch and tag a day old calf. I carry a pigging string and tie them while I go back to my saddlebags and make up a tag. Our cows are used to horses as we run them together 24/7 so not a stampede situation when you rope a calf. I made the mistake otelling Ty I'd give him $5 a calf that he got tagged in the bush-he had a couple $50 afternoons on his old man lol. This past winter was the hardest I've ever seen on our cows-we definately still have a bit of 'faintheart' disease to clean up.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Rancherfred said:
Not to take any credit away from ranchers, but we had help from the "piled higher and deeper's" at our esteemed universities. Bigger, better, faster....'bigger, better' was from research to convince producers to buy inputs from the companies providing grant money! 'Faster' was because of interest rates between 15-20% on borrowed money in the late 70s-early 80s. Get it in'em, get'em done, get'em gone!!!!!
Now think about the one lesson we all learn eventually....cattle work better at their pace.
I like that quote, PureCountry...hope you don't mind me using it!!! :wink:PureCountry said:
Tap
Well-known member
rancherfred, you said a lot in your post. And I agree with all of it.
I don't post much here anymore, but I do read every once in a while and this subject caught my eye.
I won't go back over the things already mentioned, but I will add a few more thoughts.
With high feed prices is it my thought that calves that lie out of the 500-600 area are going to be in more demand. The high 4 weight calves in load lots have been bringing good premiums the last several years. They are just the right size for yearling operators to winter and take to summer grass.
We calve our main herd of cows starting about the second week of April on. Another smaller herd that we run and sell a load of hfrs./strs. each out of, calves starting the last few days of April. The calves that brought the highest dollars per head last fall were the steers out of the late calving herd. They brought over 730 dollars per head off the cow, and we might have had 20 dollars worth of raised or purchased feed in their mothers, max. Plus the grass they ate. We check that late herd during calving every 2-3-4 days or less, and had exactly the same calf crop as the rest of our cows. The first year we started the late calving herd, we actually had only 3% opens in the fall. Last year the open % was the same as our herd that starts calving 3 weeks earlier. It could have been better, but we only bred them for 48 days, and the other cows were bred for 55 or so.
I can see lots of pluses so far, and not too many drawbacks. Those cows that calve on green grass DEFINATELY have few calving problems. Give them some room to scatter out and they will take care of themelves.
One thing about those cows that are going to calve late is that if you go through some bad weather in mid winter, a cow that far away from calving can get by on some pretty poor roughage compared to a cow closer up to calving.
I know it is a hard thing to consider, but if you run a cow with little cost, you probably can afford to take more of a death loss than someone with a lot invested in a cow. I am never talking about starving a cow, just maintaining her with minimal cost.
I am in NW South Dakota, for you guys new to this board.
I don't post much here anymore, but I do read every once in a while and this subject caught my eye.
I won't go back over the things already mentioned, but I will add a few more thoughts.
With high feed prices is it my thought that calves that lie out of the 500-600 area are going to be in more demand. The high 4 weight calves in load lots have been bringing good premiums the last several years. They are just the right size for yearling operators to winter and take to summer grass.
We calve our main herd of cows starting about the second week of April on. Another smaller herd that we run and sell a load of hfrs./strs. each out of, calves starting the last few days of April. The calves that brought the highest dollars per head last fall were the steers out of the late calving herd. They brought over 730 dollars per head off the cow, and we might have had 20 dollars worth of raised or purchased feed in their mothers, max. Plus the grass they ate. We check that late herd during calving every 2-3-4 days or less, and had exactly the same calf crop as the rest of our cows. The first year we started the late calving herd, we actually had only 3% opens in the fall. Last year the open % was the same as our herd that starts calving 3 weeks earlier. It could have been better, but we only bred them for 48 days, and the other cows were bred for 55 or so.
I can see lots of pluses so far, and not too many drawbacks. Those cows that calve on green grass DEFINATELY have few calving problems. Give them some room to scatter out and they will take care of themelves.
One thing about those cows that are going to calve late is that if you go through some bad weather in mid winter, a cow that far away from calving can get by on some pretty poor roughage compared to a cow closer up to calving.
I know it is a hard thing to consider, but if you run a cow with little cost, you probably can afford to take more of a death loss than someone with a lot invested in a cow. I am never talking about starving a cow, just maintaining her with minimal cost.
I am in NW South Dakota, for you guys new to this board.
BRG
Well-known member
Tap,
I liked yout comment about checking every 2 to 3 days. My brother is a really good, but also a low cost producer and has a herd of 100 commercial cows and pastures them 30 miles from his house. They go to pasture about mid April and they calve there in May/June. He has been doing this for 3 years now down there. He goes down once and sometimes twice a week to check them all summer, even during calving. He selects bulls to use that are more calving ease type bulls with less performance. I don't remember the exact number the first 2 years, but it was close to this years results. This year at weaning time he weaned 93 calves out of the 100 that he wintered. (He did bring a couple extras home that were twins) That includes 1 cow that sluffed her calf hauling her down to this pasture, and one that died before calving that got upside down in a water hole. So really he had 93 calves out of 98 cows. That is right at a 5% death loss by weaning, plus he had 2 calves he was bottle feeding at home that were twins. Calving can be a heck of alot easier than we all make it out to be. It just depends on what you are trying to do with your program, and the resources you have to get it done.
I liked yout comment about checking every 2 to 3 days. My brother is a really good, but also a low cost producer and has a herd of 100 commercial cows and pastures them 30 miles from his house. They go to pasture about mid April and they calve there in May/June. He has been doing this for 3 years now down there. He goes down once and sometimes twice a week to check them all summer, even during calving. He selects bulls to use that are more calving ease type bulls with less performance. I don't remember the exact number the first 2 years, but it was close to this years results. This year at weaning time he weaned 93 calves out of the 100 that he wintered. (He did bring a couple extras home that were twins) That includes 1 cow that sluffed her calf hauling her down to this pasture, and one that died before calving that got upside down in a water hole. So really he had 93 calves out of 98 cows. That is right at a 5% death loss by weaning, plus he had 2 calves he was bottle feeding at home that were twins. Calving can be a heck of alot easier than we all make it out to be. It just depends on what you are trying to do with your program, and the resources you have to get it done.
rancherfred
Well-known member
After reading over Tap and BRG's post I thought it was important to mention that later calving isn't simply moving the date you turn your bulls out. That may seem pretty obvious, but I think that a lot of the failure we have in trying new ventures is in not recognizing the true scope of what we are doing. You need to look at changing calving season as an entire system change instead of just the time of bull turnout.
In other words, do you really need to calve in the calving pasture? I know that you may have done so for the last 15 years, but is that really necessary? How about how you handle newborns? Do you normally calve in a central location and then push newborns out? Do you need to keep doing that?
I see that you (Big Swede) have already started thinking in this direction with your question about tagging, but I would encourage you to hold few if any production traditions sacred when and if you do make the shift. When we first started moving calving date later we tried to just change the calving date. We were still calving in the same area and getting out and checking the cows and heifers like we always did. After a while we realized that all of that was unnecessary. We struggled and struggled to find the right marketing method, and right now it looks like selling five weight calves in July for December and January delivery is really working quite well.
You have to constantly question whether what you are doing is because you have always done things that way, or if you actually have a good solid reason for what you are doing. Most of our traditions in the cattle business got started because they made a lot of sense at the time. Now with a completely different system, especially when we talk about changing calving season, I think we need to reevaluate the traditions and make sure we still have a good reason for doing things the way grandpa did.
In other words, do you really need to calve in the calving pasture? I know that you may have done so for the last 15 years, but is that really necessary? How about how you handle newborns? Do you normally calve in a central location and then push newborns out? Do you need to keep doing that?
I see that you (Big Swede) have already started thinking in this direction with your question about tagging, but I would encourage you to hold few if any production traditions sacred when and if you do make the shift. When we first started moving calving date later we tried to just change the calving date. We were still calving in the same area and getting out and checking the cows and heifers like we always did. After a while we realized that all of that was unnecessary. We struggled and struggled to find the right marketing method, and right now it looks like selling five weight calves in July for December and January delivery is really working quite well.
You have to constantly question whether what you are doing is because you have always done things that way, or if you actually have a good solid reason for what you are doing. Most of our traditions in the cattle business got started because they made a lot of sense at the time. Now with a completely different system, especially when we talk about changing calving season, I think we need to reevaluate the traditions and make sure we still have a good reason for doing things the way grandpa did.
Big Swede
Well-known member
Rancherfred, when I first started to consider this change it was really tough to get my mind wrapped around the whole concept. One of the first things that was holding me back was the fact that May/June calving would come right during corn planting and haying seasons and how in the world could I drylot and feed and watch cows when I was so busy with other things. DUH!!! You don't need to do those things. Traditional methods are so hard to let go of that I couldn't see the answers even though they were staring me right in the face.
I was thinking of this analogy this morning. Where would be a healthier place to be raised, both mentally and physically? In a city being piled on top of each other where environmental and emotional issues bring out the worst in people or in the country where we have space to spread out. Isn't that similar to what we do to our cattle when we force them to calve in small lots, too close to each other calving in their own waste, not enough room to spread out and calve in a secluded area etc. You get the point.
Maybe that is too broad of an analogy but I think it fits. Add to that the fact that you can cut feed costs, the biggest expense in our industry and the upside so far outweighs the downside it's not much of a decision for me anyway. I might disagree with you on one point though Rancherfred, doing things the way Grandpa did might be just the thing we need to do.
I was thinking of this analogy this morning. Where would be a healthier place to be raised, both mentally and physically? In a city being piled on top of each other where environmental and emotional issues bring out the worst in people or in the country where we have space to spread out. Isn't that similar to what we do to our cattle when we force them to calve in small lots, too close to each other calving in their own waste, not enough room to spread out and calve in a secluded area etc. You get the point.
Maybe that is too broad of an analogy but I think it fits. Add to that the fact that you can cut feed costs, the biggest expense in our industry and the upside so far outweighs the downside it's not much of a decision for me anyway. I might disagree with you on one point though Rancherfred, doing things the way Grandpa did might be just the thing we need to do.
PureCountry
Well-known member
I just had to share this little gem with all of you. No matter when or where you calve, or ranch for that matter, this is worth a read. Mr. Ben Roberts shared it with me almost a year ago, and I printed it off and have it in my office.
THE MONKEYS
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.
As soon as he touchess the stairs, spray all of the monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey will make an attempt with the same response..all of the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. keep this up for several days.
Now, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Replace the third original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.
After replacing the fourth and fifth orignal monkeys, all the monkeys which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs.
Why not?
" Because that's the way it's always been done around here."
THE MONKEYS
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.
As soon as he touchess the stairs, spray all of the monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey will make an attempt with the same response..all of the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. keep this up for several days.
Now, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Replace the third original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.
After replacing the fourth and fifth orignal monkeys, all the monkeys which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs.
Why not?
" Because that's the way it's always been done around here."
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
After getting stuck calving 190 heifers in March-remember BSE-I know there is zero chance of my kids wanting to ranch if we were pen calving. They grew up pretty much with pasture calving and sure didn't like the alternative. An old rancher told me the only people who should work at night are whores and thieves-maybe he wasn't too far off. For those of you switching over-there's a 5-10 year learning curve-well in fact you never quit learning to be honest. It's not foolproof for sure but in the long run it makes sense for most people.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Big Swede said:
What is the first thing the calving cow wants to do?
Get away from the herd.
This is a case of not seeing what Nature is trying to show us.
Saddletramp
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I've enjoyed reading all these posts and once again there are opions from all over the country. From the gulf coast to Canada. No one of us are probably calving at the right time, we are just doing what works for our own operation.
I've heard talk about saving labor by calving later and I have to ask....What are you people doing this time of year anyway? Why not calve when you have the time to calve?
We are not quite half done right now and we have yet to lose a calf to cold weather. I have only tagged one calf so far with a puffy ear. Sure it's hard work to calf right now but I can't imagine trying to get calves on the ground and crops in and alfalfa up at the same time. If we calved in May and June some other part of the ranch would not get done like the fencing or branding or the windmill work and either the hay wouldn't get put up right or the cows would get ignored.
I guess what I'm trying to say is spread the work load out so you can handle it.
I also think alot of people are ranching that don't enjoy ranching. Alot of talk on cutting corners and trying to save labor seems to be the norm. If you don't like what your doing (calving cows for instance) get the heck out and do what you enjoy doing.
I know alot of so called ranchers that can't get along with their $800 horse so they buy a $10,000 four-wheeler because it's so much easier and faster. If scour vac is too expensive for you you shouldn't be whining if doctoring scours cuts into your golf game.
Instead of laying awake at night trying to figure out how to save labor maybe some should just get out and get after it, do a good job and you will sleep alot better in the long run.
I've heard talk about saving labor by calving later and I have to ask....What are you people doing this time of year anyway? Why not calve when you have the time to calve?
We are not quite half done right now and we have yet to lose a calf to cold weather. I have only tagged one calf so far with a puffy ear. Sure it's hard work to calf right now but I can't imagine trying to get calves on the ground and crops in and alfalfa up at the same time. If we calved in May and June some other part of the ranch would not get done like the fencing or branding or the windmill work and either the hay wouldn't get put up right or the cows would get ignored.
I guess what I'm trying to say is spread the work load out so you can handle it.
I also think alot of people are ranching that don't enjoy ranching. Alot of talk on cutting corners and trying to save labor seems to be the norm. If you don't like what your doing (calving cows for instance) get the heck out and do what you enjoy doing.
I know alot of so called ranchers that can't get along with their $800 horse so they buy a $10,000 four-wheeler because it's so much easier and faster. If scour vac is too expensive for you you shouldn't be whining if doctoring scours cuts into your golf game.
Instead of laying awake at night trying to figure out how to save labor maybe some should just get out and get after it, do a good job and you will sleep alot better in the long run.
the_jersey_lilly_2000
Well-known member
Very nicely put Saddletramp
Big Swede
Well-known member
Saddletramp, if you enjoy pennning cattle in the calving shed on cold days and colder nights by all means keep doing it. In my experience, every time a cow is headed to the barn, way more bad things can happen than if she is left alone to calve on her own.
No one is trying to convince you to change what you are doing. If you're happy and your banker is happy then I'm happy.
The day may soon come when every expense you can cut may be the difference between profit and loss. That includes everything from labor to scour vaccine. The guys buying your steers in the fall are losing their ass right now at the rate of $100-200 per head coming out of the feedlots. Don't think that won't make a difference when they come back to the auction next fall. Could you find a way to spend $100 less on inputs this next year? How about $200? I think I can.
I love being a rancher but it's also a business.
Like I said earlier, my original post addressed the guys who were already doing what I am considering doing. It was never an attempt to convert anyone.
Have a great day!!
No one is trying to convince you to change what you are doing. If you're happy and your banker is happy then I'm happy.
The day may soon come when every expense you can cut may be the difference between profit and loss. That includes everything from labor to scour vaccine. The guys buying your steers in the fall are losing their ass right now at the rate of $100-200 per head coming out of the feedlots. Don't think that won't make a difference when they come back to the auction next fall. Could you find a way to spend $100 less on inputs this next year? How about $200? I think I can.
I love being a rancher but it's also a business.
Like I said earlier, my original post addressed the guys who were already doing what I am considering doing. It was never an attempt to convert anyone.
Have a great day!!
Saddletramp
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Of course it's a business, we all know that. And I don't mean to apply that everyone is lazy that calves in heat.
Yes there are many things that can go wrong in the calving shed but one is more likely to be there for them then when they're in a section pasture getting looked at only once a day. Just my experience but I've pulled alot more dead calves out of cows calving on green grass than I ever have in this time of year.
What do you folks do about coyotes? The predator problem is a concern this time of year but in the early summer those mama yotes have a den full of pups to feed and they really get on the hunt then.
Again everything has a trade off. Nothings a free lunch like Soapweed said, to get one thing you will have to give up something else.
But like I said earlier, none of us are probably doing it quite right. :wink:
Yes there are many things that can go wrong in the calving shed but one is more likely to be there for them then when they're in a section pasture getting looked at only once a day. Just my experience but I've pulled alot more dead calves out of cows calving on green grass than I ever have in this time of year.
What do you folks do about coyotes? The predator problem is a concern this time of year but in the early summer those mama yotes have a den full of pups to feed and they really get on the hunt then.
Again everything has a trade off. Nothings a free lunch like Soapweed said, to get one thing you will have to give up something else.
But like I said earlier, none of us are probably doing it quite right. :wink:
Saddletramp
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OK, just one more post and then I'll shut up.......
Everyone's operation is different and we all have to do what we need to to make it work out. Here at the Spearhead, we raise commercial calves and that's all we do. We don't raise crops (except hay) we don't sell bulls, or mineral, or take in hunters and Peachblossom doesn't work in town, we just raise calves. We feel we have to focus on every live calf and pound of beef cause it's all we do.
Truth be known we're probably a minority in the beef business. So we can be out there amongest them this time of year when alot of folks have got other things on their minds. Have a good day evreyone.
Everyone's operation is different and we all have to do what we need to to make it work out. Here at the Spearhead, we raise commercial calves and that's all we do. We don't raise crops (except hay) we don't sell bulls, or mineral, or take in hunters and Peachblossom doesn't work in town, we just raise calves. We feel we have to focus on every live calf and pound of beef cause it's all we do.
Truth be known we're probably a minority in the beef business. So we can be out there amongest them this time of year when alot of folks have got other things on their minds. Have a good day evreyone.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Saddletramp, if you feel threatened by this conversation, the question you have to answer is why???
I have to take exception to your statement..."No one of us are probably calving at the right time,..."
Nature always brings new life into the world when the environment they will depend on has its most abundant food supply. This is about matching the cows highest nutritional needs with your ranches highest forage production. Each rancher has to figure out how that pencils out for their bottom line. That's the beauty of small business production agriculture...we get to do thing the way we want to...as long as the wife is happy and the bills get paid.
I'm sure you and Soapweed are out having fun while I write this! Like someone smarter than me said...do a job you enjoy and you will never work a day in your life!!!!
I have to take exception to your statement..."No one of us are probably calving at the right time,..."
Nature always brings new life into the world when the environment they will depend on has its most abundant food supply. This is about matching the cows highest nutritional needs with your ranches highest forage production. Each rancher has to figure out how that pencils out for their bottom line. That's the beauty of small business production agriculture...we get to do thing the way we want to...as long as the wife is happy and the bills get paid.
I'm sure you and Soapweed are out having fun while I write this! Like someone smarter than me said...do a job you enjoy and you will never work a day in your life!!!!
RobertMac
Well-known member
Big Swede said:
Think about how this applies to CAFOs.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Actually when you calve in June there are lots of delicious gophers, baby fawns, nesting birds etc for the coyotes to vary their diet from beef with. They rarely get a healthy calf but do get the occasional twin. Back in my calving pen days I figured pasture calvers were crazy too-it was easy to just bull your neck-mix up your electrolytes-polish your fork handles and get fresh batteries for the alarm clock. A week ago it was -38 here-yesterday it was pouring rain-guess where I'm gl;ad my baby calves were.
Big Swede
Well-known member
Saddletramp, I enjoyed our conversation. The next time we have a 3 day blizzard and you have a 1000 calves on the ground, we'll talk again, then we can talk about conversion. :wink: :wink:
gcreekrch
Well-known member
SaddleTramp, Some of what you are saying is a repeat of what I've heard elsewhere about "not having time to calve later". A few things someone moving to later calving has to convince themselves of are :
A cow IS capable of having a calf without human intervention.
It is much more enjoyable to the operater to calve outside and not haul calves to the barn and manure out.
Far less health problems.
If you are not "calving" cows you HAVE time to do other things
You still need to moniter what's going on out there, but most times it's hands off.
MOST IMPORTANT : A cow is an AMAZING critter, IF you stay out of her way and let her do HER job, it's surprising how well she can do it.
A cow IS capable of having a calf without human intervention.
It is much more enjoyable to the operater to calve outside and not haul calves to the barn and manure out.
Far less health problems.
If you are not "calving" cows you HAVE time to do other things
You still need to moniter what's going on out there, but most times it's hands off.
MOST IMPORTANT : A cow is an AMAZING critter, IF you stay out of her way and let her do HER job, it's surprising how well she can do it.
