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Comments on bull EPD's

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BRG said:
I agree that AIing will improve your herd, BUT, I have been around the entire U.S. trying to find herdbulls for myself and other purebred ranches. It is part of my business. I have seen some of the bulls that the so called AI studs have bought and are promoting. A lot of them aren't really that good. They have great #'s a good pedigree, and take a pretty picture, but their is way more to it than that. I have actually been disgusted with some of the bulls they select. Slab sided, shallow gutted, poor footed, etc. Now I don't mean all of the bulls. Their are several that turn out to be really good, but they look at it a little different than you and I. Around 90% of the semen sold goes to breed first calf heifers. So normally you want these type of bulls just for ease of calving. But if you AI your cows you need more power than what they typically have. So if most of their customers want calving ease type bulls that is what they are going to supply. A big problem with this though is that to many purebred breeders use these bulls hard and this is one reason why alot of the Angus(red or black) don't have a rearend and are loosing bone. So I guess all I am saying is if you AI, know what you are using, don't just use him becasue he is popular and takes a good picture. Check him out and ask other ranchers (that have used them) who like the same type of cattle that you do. Or use semen from your bull supplier, ussually they will very happy to sell some to you. If you trust him enough to buy bulls from, why not use the same herd bulls that he is using.

(All the bulls I have seen that I am reffering to above are both Red and Black Angus. I haven't paid enough attention to other breeds.)
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BRG - What you are saying is absolutely correct! This BUSINESS takes a lot of work and planning. And part of the planning is to understand the "Interbreed" Politics of the Game! And the Beef Business is a game - whether we want to accept that fact or not. Your knowledge and experiences in your part of the business is valuable to all breeders. Your input in this post is an important phase of what both large and small breeders need to understand about how to improve their Foundation stock. One size doesn't fit ALL. This is why I have stressed 'Study and Learn! Study and learn! Study and learn!"

I have a suggestion for ALL breeders, large and small, Commercial and Purebred: Log onto the Cattle Today Online Archives - type in "Jay Nixon" in the Search Box, and scroll to "Let's Once Again Discuss Size" and "A Common Dilemma" among his other noteworthy articles. Nixon puts this BUSINESS in proper perspective.
 
I only AI a few cows each year and they are the top cows I have. The off spring are for the replacement herd. I use an Angus bull for clean up os it is easy to see if the calves are pure Charlois or not.

At the cost and extra time involved I can't see using AI on any but the best cows.

But then I feel the clean up bull should not be a slackard either.
 
George said:
I only AI a few cows each year and they are the top cows I have. The off spring are for the replacement herd. I use an Angus bull for clean up os it is easy to see if the calves are pure Charlois or not.

At the cost and extra time involved I can't see using AI on any but the best cows.

But then I feel the clean up bull should not be a slackard either.
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ANY bull one uses - for whatever collection of reasons - should NEVER be less than the very best you can arrange to use! George, I think you have planned your work - and you are working your plan!
 
FH(And honestly, I have seen cattle that have been AI'd for 10 years that aren't as good as some cattle that have been bred naturally. I don't know the reason and I will agree that doesn't make sense. I have scratched my head about it plenty and the only thing I can come up with is that they
didn't get as many bred AI as they thought they did, and many of the cows kept were offspring from natural service. You know, a lot of folks who do AI, buy pretty mediocre bulls for clean-up. I think it is a good idea to follow up that AI service with good bulls. Too bad there are so many mediocre bulls out there available for purchase.)

I think it is that alot of ppl are useing fad bulls and don't use the bulls that would improve there cow herd. Most of the AI reps are trying to sell the most used bulls and not the one that would do what you need.
AI is one of the most important tools that we have to help improve genetics. If you use bulls that do what you need and then breed those daughters in a way to compliment them you will endup with geneticly good cattle.
 
Andy said:
FH(And honestly, I have seen cattle that have been AI'd for 10 years that aren't as good as some cattle that have been bred naturally. I don't know the reason and I will agree that doesn't make sense. I have scratched my head about it plenty and the only thing I can come up with is that they
didn't get as many bred AI as they thought they did, and many of the cows kept were offspring from natural service. You know, a lot of folks who do AI, buy pretty mediocre bulls for clean-up. I think it is a good idea to follow up that AI service with good bulls. Too bad there are so many mediocre bulls out there available for purchase.)

I think it is that alot of ppl are useing fad bulls and don't use the bulls that would improve there cow herd. Most of the AI reps are trying to sell the most used bulls and not the one that would do what you need.
AI is one of the most important tools that we have to help improve genetics. If you use bulls that do what you need and then breed those daughters in a way to compliment them you will endup with geneticly good cattle.
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Andy - You are right! This is exactly why I have stressed learning and having knowledge pertaining to EPD's and Carcass and Ultrasound Values and $Values - - - then USING that knowledge to specifically amend undesirable traits which the breeder wishes to improve. We all know that EPD's and the CORRECT use of them is not the end-all answer to everything - - but it is a heck of a big part to successful Herd Management and ultimate improvement of the BOTTOM LINE of the BUSINESS! Everyone needs all the help they can get. That is why I embrace these posts as I do! The experienced Ranchers here do a very commendable job. We all just need to keep an OPEN mind.
 
Would these be more appealing:

14474535
Pic:http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/4aFarm/Mvc-005f.jpg


14663653

Bull on the left

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/4aFarm/Mvc-004f.jpg
 
tom4018 said:
Would these be more appealing:

14474535
Pic:http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/4aFarm/Mvc-005f.jpg


14663653

Bull on the left

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/4aFarm/Mvc-004f.jpg
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Are you 100% CERTAIN that the pedigree's match the pictures? :shock: My personal feelings are - I have my doubts!
 
We were given papers of their pedigree and shown these bulls. So going by what we are told. Thanks for the thoughts the high birth weight number scared me any way.
 
NO! They are look like a cow-no hind quarters, no thickness,bellied. We go by EPDS some and overall appearance and what the sellers cow herd is like in general. No need to have to worry about hi birth weights these days-you can get excellent growth with a light to medium birth weight live calf. Like I have said before-to each his own.
 
Tom, you should not even worry about the epd's on those bulls after you have seen them or pictures of them. They might be cow freshners, but they aren't much else.

Seems to me you have shown us several bulls on this thread, and with one exception, none have amounted to much. Surely, there is a better selection of bulls in Kentucky. Our order buyer in Iowa has been buying some cattle out of Kentucky and he tells me that they are really advancing with gentics there. Perhaps he could help you find a good Angus bull. If you want to pm me, I will put you in touch with him. He knows and likes good Angus cattle, both red and black.

You need to find better than what you have shown us so far. These bulls won't do you much, if any good. Bulls should look like bulls. These last two look like...COWS!

(I couldn't open the first photo on the last request, so don't know what they look like.)
 
I was at a Bull Sale in Lewiston, Idaho a few years back. I got there late and didn't have a chance to go out back as I wasn't sure of the order. they had a bull with BW,WW, YW and growth numbers that were really great, and I stuck around. I wasn't necessarily needing a bull, but if he went right I was planning on owning him.....


Well, he is at the end of the sale and everything I would never want in a bull..Poor attitude and a really thin tube look as I recall. I don't remember too much else about him other than the guys he was trying to chase out of the sale ring. He didn't match any expectation I had. He sold plenty cheap enough, but I sure didn't own him, LOL,

I really look at numbers, but I won't buy anything that doesn't look like something I would want to own,

PPRM
 
Tom where are you located at in kentucky? I am right across the river from brandenburgh and know of some nice angus bulls from breeders that i trust. I run shorthorn bulls myself. I am gonna get some fire going here but this is just my view. I have bought so many angus bulls over the years that i would cut from good e.p.d.s The problem is you dont see the problems until a year later. This is my opinion and from talking to a lot of breeders. When the angus got hot and a breeder has 50 bull calves does he cut 30%? No the saying was i got to have some low end bulls for my low end customers. This is by more than one breeder now. So if you figure all the breeders in together how many do this and how many bulls are out there that should have been cut? Lets get to e.p.d.s. now doc i agree with you 100%on e.p.d.s. they have there place. But IF the breeder does actually weigh the calves from start to finish. But they dont. How many people can walk out in a field and say that calf weighs 74 ounds? If they miss it by 5 pounds and do 200 head this way them e.p.d.s are junk! Same as if they dont weigh them at the farm on the exact prescibed day than the growth and weaning e.p.d.s are junk. If a calve is weighed 3 weeks past the 205 day than he will have better growth numbers from the fact that he is older. Just my 2 cents!
 
BRG said:
I have seen some of the bulls that the so called AI studs have bought and are promoting. A lot of them aren't really that good.
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Some of them I have seen are worse than "not really that good"
Of course there is the good one every now and then.
 
Shorthorn,


Thank Goodness for these EPD's, they help divert the Gunsell's focus to the no butt potbellied Bulls so we don't have to fight so hard for the good ones, LOL

Actually, I use EPD's and performance numbers, but they are only a small part of the package. Breed cows in Winter, so I don't need as many bulls...My philosophy is I can really be choosy....Which is kinda funny as I am putting cadillacs bulls I buy at a discount on top of some cows in a herd developed from best buys at the sale, LOL.... Of course, a lot of those best buys were from Broken mouth bred cows that proved themselves elsewhere. I have some fairly unirom calves, but really a crazy quilt patchwork of cow color, LOL,

PPRM
 
shorthorn wrote:
If a calve is weighed 3 weeks past the 205 day than he will have better growth numbers from the fact that he is older.
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Wrong shorty. Breed Associations allow you to weigh the calves between 140 and 270 days, then they are ADJUSTED to 205 day Weaning Weight.

You report the day they are weighed on, the birthdate, and the weight of the calf. The computer takes the age of the Dam into consideration and Adjusts the weight accordingly.

Personally, I do not know a purebred breeder who doesn't weigh his calves at birth either.
 
shorthorn said:
Tom where are you located at in kentucky? I am right across the river from brandenburgh and know of some nice angus bulls from breeders that i trust. I run shorthorn bulls myself. I am gonna get some fire going here but this is just my view. I have bought so many angus bulls over the years that i would cut from good e.p.d.s The problem is you dont see the problems until a year later. This is my opinion and from talking to a lot of breeders. When the angus got hot and a breeder has 50 bull calves does he cut 30%? No the saying was i got to have some low end bulls for my low end customers. This is by more than one breeder now. So if you figure all the breeders in together how many do this and how many bulls are out there that should have been cut? Lets get to e.p.d.s. now doc i agree with you 100%on e.p.d.s. they have there place. But IF the breeder does actually weigh the calves from start to finish. But they dont. How many people can walk out in a field and say that calf weighs 74 ounds? If they miss it by 5 pounds and do 200 head this way them e.p.d.s are junk! Same as if they dont weigh them at the farm on the exact prescibed day than the growth and weaning e.p.d.s are junk. If a calve is weighed 3 weeks past the 205 day than he will have better growth numbers from the fact that he is older. Just my 2 cents!
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Shorthorn,

We are north west of Bowling Green.
 
I know of 6 off the top of my head. 3 angus breeders and 1 simmental breeder and 1 charlois breeder. The reason i know this is because i am the vice president of the cattlemans association and we toured a bunch of them about a year ago. But like i said just my opinion. I have been burned and dont have the total faith in the e.p.d.s. I feel from a dedicated breeder that they do work but i gotta have confidence in the breeder and know how he works. I have just seen the bad side to where after a lot of thought that if i met that many untruthful people. Than just how many are out there?


Tom you arent to far from me thru the country really.If you want pm me and i will check on some bulls for you. I know where one really nice one is but a feller from kentucky was coming to look at him .
 
doc run this bull and tell me what you think of his e.p.d.s i dont have pictures as of yet. But thought you might be able to tell me if he is at least bred right?
Thanks
 

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