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Cows not calving on time

beeffarm

New member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
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3
Hello. I'm new to the forum and my question is, what could be the reason my cows aren't calving on time?

I bought 7 heifers of mixed beef breed in December 2011, and 9 more on February 1, 2012. All were around 15 months old. I put a registered Gelbvieh bull with them that had been checked in December. He was taken away and back to the neighbors in June. The calving was scattered from September 2012 to March 2013, with the majority by December 2012.

Bull was brought back in November 2012. This time, the calving was scattered from August 2013 to May 2015, with 2 not calving.

This year, 4 cows have calved. There are 7 more that could have according to time lines.

So, I'm sure there are a million things that could be causing them not to breed back on time, or at all. What would be your first impression as to what could be wrong? Is it probably the bull? By the way, consider all other things good; they are eating well and have good mineral, etc.

Thanks.
 
Bull was put in in Nov 2012 and didn't calve until May of 2015? Something may need to take a ride........

Right. A million things. Usually nutrition, or lack of, is first. Was the bull semen tested? Can't be all the bull's fault because some got bred.
 
What kind of cows are they? What are they eating that you consider 'good'? Mike is right, it is usually nutrition, but not always. Can you post a picture of the cows so we can see them? If they didn't breed up to calve at around 24 months, it is usually good to get rid of those because it could be a fertility issue as well. What cows have calved more consistently than the others? You say 'the bull was brought back', does that mean someone else used the bull when you weren't? If so, have you checked for Trich? And also, if the bull is breeding cows elsewhere, how are those cows breeding up? Same as yours or better? I think you have something serious going on that needs fixed. Good that you are seeking answers. We will try and help you, but you will have to answer a lot of questions. Have you
visited with your veterinarian about this? Are your cows on a vaccination program?
 
Faster horses said:
What kind of cows are they? What are they eating that you consider 'good'? Mike is right, it is usually nutrition, but not always. Can you post a picture of the cows so we can see them? If they didn't breed up to calve at around 24 months, it is usually good to get rid of those because it could be a fertility issue as well. What cows have calved more consistently than the others? You say 'the bull was brought back', does that mean someone else used the bull when you weren't? If so, have you checked for Trich? And also, if the bull is breeding cows elsewhere, how are those cows breeding up? Same as yours or better? I think you have something serious going on that needs fixed. Good that you are seeking answers. We will try and help you, but you will have to answer a lot of questions. Have you
visited with your veterinarian about this? Are your cows on a vaccination program?

I will say, I'm probably what most would call a hobby farmer, and I'm sure I don't do everything that the modern farmer does.

They are eating rolls of Fescue/Orchard grass/Weed mix.

I have one cow that has calved on time all three times. We use our neighbors bull. He offered, so we accepted. We have not checked for Trich. To be honest, I never heard of it.

Our neighbor claims the bulls serves him well, but he runs a bull all the time. When we have this one, he has another one with his herd, so he's having calves at random times. He probably doesn't pay attention as closely as if he were trying to get them to calve within a specific time frame.

We have not asked the vet, and we are not on a vaccination program.

It seems like things have changed. I guess I get my cow care from thinking back on my grandfather's operation. He had a herd of 15 black Angus. On one hand, he would have put a hospital bed in the barn if he thought it would have helped a sick cow, but he didn't vaccinate, worm, and he put out salt blocks. My father says, however, that his cows always calved within a short time frame every year, and although he lost a few here and there over 50 years, he doesn't remember any major, ongoing issues.

These days, it seems like if one doesn't keep stuff pumped in them, they can barely function.
 
I'm not from Fescue country but I here guys on here talking about problems with it.
We don't pump our cattle full of anything but since we do ask more of our cattle these day as in breeding at a younger age and weaning heavier calves we do have to feed better and supplement mineral. Vaccinations are a great boon to the industry, people that don't only get away with it until it catches up with them then it's to late.
Maybe you should talk to your vet or take an animal husbandry course so you have a clue what is going on.
 
Beef farm, your "pumped up" comment is absolutely wrong and insulting to the professional cattlemen that you're addressing. When FH mentioned working with a vet, that was the holy grail of advice. Bet you didn't know a coon pooping in the cow hay can knock a calf, but a breed back protocol can protect against losing a calf that way. Do you realize that pathogen challenges are much worse in the boot heal than Sd badlands? Here's the math, a decent vet can organize strategic deworming, breed back protocol, and herd health control like b-leg for $20/year and that's Cadillac control? If you're in fescue country, these challenges are some of your biggest challenges. Randomly suggesting the cattle industry is pumping up with something is a damn lie in the case of the professionals on ranchers net. The hillbilly hobbiests that a few decades ago didn't own a processing chute and for damn sure couldn't count to 2, have adulterated America's beef chain with their ignorance. Start with the cheap easy and likely solutions that a vet will suggest and go from there.

Honestly, best advice would be to swap the mess you have and buy back some management. After a lifetime of blood sweat and tears, you'll understand the insult of pumping up whatever.
 
So, you bought some heifers from somewhere and put somebody's bull with them and left him there for awhile and now you aren't getting calves when you think you should and want people on a message board to tell you what's wrong. :help: :lol:

This is my biggest bit*h now and forever. WHY do people think cows are fun and easy and cool? Why do 'they' think no experience is necessary to own cows? They go to their real job and brag "I have cows". They don't own a trailer, a syringe, or a decent place to graze. They don't vaccinate and have little to no knowledge of animal diseases and illnesses. It discredits those who have spent their entire lives raising and caring for cattle and the generations before them.

"These days, it seems like if one doesn't keep stuff pumped in them, they can barely function." If you really truly believe this....WHY do you have cattle? Do them and yourself a big favor and sell them.
 
Brad S said:
Beef farm, your "pumped up" comment is absolutely wrong and insulting to the professional cattlemen that you're addressing. When FH mentioned working with a vet, that was the holy grail of advice. Bet you didn't know a coon pooping in the cow hay can knock a calf, but a breed back protocol can protect against losing a calf that way. Do you realize that pathogen challenges are much worse in the boot heal than Sd badlands? Here's the math, a decent vet can organize strategic deworming, breed back protocol, and herd health control like b-leg for $20/year and that's Cadillac control? If you're in fescue country, these challenges are some of your biggest challenges. Randomly suggesting the cattle industry is pumping up with something is a damn lie in the case of the professionals on ranchers net. The hillbilly hobbiests that a few decades ago didn't own a processing chute and for damn sure couldn't count to 2, have adulterated America's beef chain with their ignorance. Start with the cheap easy and likely solutions that a vet will suggest and go from there.

Honestly, best advice would be to swap the mess you have and buy back some management. After a lifetime of blood sweat and tears, you'll understand the insult of pumping up whatever.

I believe you misinterpreted my "pumped" comment. That was just a figure of speech that I used in the same way that I might say, "Why is grandpa so fat? Because grandma keeps him pumped full of country ham, eggs, and sausage." I was referring to specific mineral, dewormer, and all that stuff that my grandfather didn't do, yet he made a great living.

I really don't know what you thought I meant, but since it apparently insulted all the professional cattlemen and caused you to write that it's a "damn lie," it must have been big, so i do apologize if that means something else.

Speaking of insulting, however, I mentioned how my grandfather ran his business, and you mentioned hillbilly hobbiests a few decades ago that couldn't count to two, I assume you could be throwing that my way. I assume you are basing that on past generations that you are aware of; it didn't really seem familiar to me.

Anyway, i just came here looking for opinions. I'm actually on another farming forum and just thought I would find another one to visit as well. People on the other one are nice and helpful, but it seems like people just want to point out their opinion of how stupid i am here. I never intended to insult anyone, I just came for help, but I guess I'll be on my way.
 
When advised to consult a vet you respond with "pumped up." Sure you were talking about everything but drugs. Every other minute there's a new lie about adulterated beef - drugs, hormones, steroids. But you were talking about pumped up on grass and minerals. Yeah, that's the ticket. Strategic immunization isn't pumped up on drugs.

You're exactly right, I was talking about fescue country when I mentioned hillbillies that didn't own a squeeze chute (in the 80s a survey showed almost 90% of people in the south supposedly raising cattle didn't own a squeeze chute.) can't count to 2 refers to all the upgrade cattle my dad ran that had more than zero and less than 2 nuts.

In the very recent past, in fescue country, every so often they'd round up the calves big enough to sell. They left the bull out all year and the sharp managers would surmise that a fat, steer headed cow probably didn't raise a calf.
 
beeffarm said:
Brad S said:
Beef farm, your "pumped up" comment is absolutely wrong and insulting to the professional cattlemen that you're addressing. When FH mentioned working with a vet, that was the holy grail of advice. Bet you didn't know a coon pooping in the cow hay can knock a calf, but a breed back protocol can protect against losing a calf that way. Do you realize that pathogen challenges are much worse in the boot heal than Sd badlands? Here's the math, a decent vet can organize strategic deworming, breed back protocol, and herd health control like b-leg for $20/year and that's Cadillac control? If you're in fescue country, these challenges are some of your biggest challenges. Randomly suggesting the cattle industry is pumping up with something is a damn lie in the case of the professionals on ranchers net. The hillbilly hobbiests that a few decades ago didn't own a processing chute and for damn sure couldn't count to 2, have adulterated America's beef chain with their ignorance. Start with the cheap easy and likely solutions that a vet will suggest and go from there.

Honestly, best advice would be to swap the mess you have and buy back some management. After a lifetime of blood sweat and tears, you'll understand the insult of pumping up whatever.

I believe you misinterpreted my "pumped" comment. That was just a figure of speech that I used in the same way that I might say, "Why is grandpa so fat? Because grandma keeps him pumped full of country ham, eggs, and sausage." I was referring to specific mineral, dewormer, and all that stuff that my grandfather didn't do, yet he made a great living.

Your grandfather making 'a great living' was in a different era. Today what he did doesn't work very well. You don't drive the same pickup your grandfather drove for instance. Things change. Ideas change. Management changes. Cattle must perform or they won't pay their way (with the exception of the last 4 years. From the sounds of it, you missed that great time in the cattle business and that's too bad. I'm not being sarcastic, I truly mean it.) You are what we call a 'No-Cost rancher' (not intending to insult you, it is just a fact) and they don't last long in this business. There is good protocol to follow when raising cattle. Vaccinating, testing bulls, deworming, nutrition....all these things PAY. You aren't doing them and you are asking for advice, so I guess therein might lie the answer.

Good luck to you.
 
I know for a fact that no calf was ever born that could read a calendar. They come when they're ready, no matter what the calendar says.

A lot of people can't read a calendar, either.
 
Well crap, I live in fescue country and now I'm lumped in as a hillbilly who can't count. LOL at least I own a squeeze chute or 2. You'd be surprised how many unworked calves come to town but I hate to say sometimes the premium just isn't there to justify the work. That's why we background calves, buy others mistakes...



Back to topic go talk to a local vet.
 
4Diamond said:
Well crap, I live in fescue country and now I'm lumped in as a hillbilly who can't count. LOL at least I own a squeeze chute or 2. You'd be surprised how many unworked calves come to town but I hate to say sometimes the premium just isn't there to justify the work. That's why we background calves, buy others mistakes...



Back to topic go talk to a local vet.

The premium isn't there to do the job properly but you buy them at a discount. :???: :???:

My Dad bought a lot of "second cut" cattle we cut and dehorned more than i want to remember, it would have been so much better for the calf if it had been done when young and the producer would have gotten a better price.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
4Diamond said:
Well crap, I live in fescue country and now I'm lumped in as a hillbilly who can't count. LOL at least I own a squeeze chute or 2. You'd be surprised how many unworked calves come to town but I hate to say sometimes the premium just isn't there to justify the work. That's why we background calves, buy others mistakes...



Back to topic go talk to a local vet.

The premium isn't there to do the job properly but you buy them at a discount. :???: :???:

My Dad bought a lot of "second cut" cattle we cut and dehorned more than i want to remember, it would have been so much better for the calf if it had been done when young and the producer would have gotten a better price.
In an up market no I don't think it pays enough to justify working them for some people. If your set up and full time yes it's worth it but for the guy that has 15-30 head probably not.

We generally buy mistakes in a down market where they get discounted more. I should have been more clear on that.
 
I know there are solid cattlemen in the south, but if you go back to the time frame referenced (early 80s), you know how it was. When the county extension office had programs to finance chutes and they made the case for cutting horns and nuts paid $$. I was a kid processing dad's upgrade specials. I've been at northern brandings where they vaccinate very new calves and wet hides. And this is recently - now times. So ignorance can be found about everywhere.

Cattle are so overbought right now that defects like nuts and horns are under penalized. Wait til nobody wants to look at them in a couple years. Those little frame 4 southern upgrade cattle made good feeders, but my dad and I used to argue about them more than anything else. Dad running the sorting stick and me swinging the in and by gate made for trying times.
 
All young male cattle at the sale barn here are categorized as steers by the USDA grader at the barn sitting at the ring. Calves from the bigger ranches never go through the ring. They are sold by the truckload on "Board Sales" before any cattle start through the ring. These are the ones that have been vaccinated - dehorned, pre-conditioned, backgrounded, etc. Good calves usually..........
All Southern cattle also take a big hit towards the trucking to the feedyards in the Midwest. (No packers, thus no feedyards.) Feedyards moved to the corn belt.
Small hobby folks have other jobs, own only 40 or so acres, and are using cattle to keep the place from growing up in weeds and utilizing the tax advantages. Not all, but the majority. Most have 1 bull, and run him year round. Try selling a bull to this bunch, it's a pain.
 
Wow, interesting thread! Well, I guess Ill say this. First, there is no dumb question. I'm glad the original poster asked his question. I'm on several different forums. When you cant here the tone of voice as to how something is stated, someones comments can very easily get misinturpeted. Ive been the insulte & the insulter. I know Beef Arm said he feed mineral and some other things, indicating that you are trying to follow protocol. Yet then you make a comment about over feeding grandpa. I can see both sides of this. Life is too short to get worked up.

I'm from Nebraska, just like Brad S. I'm from Chambers...Holt County. I'm guessing from knowing who soap weed is Brad is from Cherry Co. There is a vast difference in protocol just in Nebraska. Up in our country....yes cut at birth, dehorned, several rounds of shots (I have given 3 sets of respitory/pasturllia) weaned, most set breeding season etc. I don't know if Id say Beef Arm is a hobby farmer. I have around 180 cows, my neighbor has 600. Am I a hobby farmer???? I don't think the "bashing" is because of your size, its your husbandry. So, I have 180 cows. I give a prebreeding shot to my cows before I turn the bull out. My neighbor that has 600 gives a prebreeding shot at pregcheck time. I have another neighbor that has a herd size between these tow & gives no prebreeding shot at all. I'm not bragging, but Id like to say I feel we are all successful. I somewhat agree with Brad S. that some people that don't follow protocol give a bad reputation. For instance on a Facebook forum a person asked if the modified vaccine that his neighbor used 2 days ago (had some left) would work on his calves. Now anyone that know anything about vaccine would modified has an optimum shelf life of about an hour. Now is it killed vaccine is good for who knows how long. There is more this, but what I'm saying is if your not informed, its easy to get confused.

Not pumping, or as faster horses put it...no cost producer isn't a bad thing. I view a lot of this stuff like an insurance policy. For instance, UNL did some research in my area on mineral content of the grass & water in our area. According to them, all we need to feed is a very little phosphurse, copper & zinc. Extension agent said you could have some A, D, & E if it helped you to sleep at night. As he explained it....you can run with a more expensive mineral program (lower insurance deductible) and have to doctor less. In the long run, if you have potential issues, it wil be less. If you have no issues, well its money spent that you didn't need to. If you went with a cheaper mineral, (higher deductible) if you have a problem it will cost you more (labor, antibiodics, lost gains, etc.) but the odds are less that you will need the extra "coverage". Well that year phos went sky high for the time, so I tried it. There is no corolation between what I had for mineral (according to them) yet I had the worst year of foot rot & pink eye ever. I never had problems that bad before or after. Also towards the end of the year, Id go down to check cows & Id see a new cow ridding. Well, it was a "on par" preg check. I do agree with the university that maybe we don't need "top coverage", a bigger feed supplier sells a lot of mineral with oxides (less absorbable/cheaper/poorer quality) and the people that use it have good results. Myself and others spend a little more to have better coverage...sleep better at night. Yes, if we bought every product possible we should have 200% preg check & wean off 900# calves. You can "pump" them full of stuff. If cattle isn't your main income source, yes you can cut some corners. Not pump them full of stuff & if they don't wean off at an optimium weight or optimium breed back your not going to go broke. For others like myself if you put your percentage of breed back on our scale my banker would sell me out in a heart beat. A person can be kinda loose about things or anal. For instance, I know a father & son operation. The son wanted to precondition. The father said in the local gas station "we could just put it on their backs and it would do as much good". Then I know of a story that one producer changes needles between each animal. I think you get my point here. People use to not vaccinate, feed just salt, etc. They didn't just start doing to because they felt sorry for the feed salesman. Yes you can over due it. You can get lucky. As one person said, I think being a no cost producer has caught up with you.

Ive been to sales in eastern Nebraska where they aren't dehorned, cut, etc. In an up market people will pay for anything. Like I gave my calves a respitory shot in the spring, then mid October, weaned first part of November, then the Tuesday before Christmas I gave them a shot again. Ive never done it before this way. I don't expect a $50 dollor a head premium. When the vaccine is $1 a head, if I can get one person to bid just one more time, even if its just 10 cents a hundred per pound Ill get my vaccine money back and then some. Your the only one that knows what your time is worth. No disrespect intended, just being bluntly honest, if your going to do something, why do half a job? It might be somewhat geographical specific, but around here, if its not cut/dehorned, they beat the sh!t out of you.

Well, back to the original post. You have been kinda vague for much help. Your neighbor has a strung out calving period. He could have bad nutrition or tric. Tric is not hard to test for, but not easy either. Borrowing isn't the best thing, STD's. They can be "lazy" too. You might awesome nutrition, but if your heifers aren't fertile, you have an uphill battle. You talk about "pumping", if you have to feed really well due to them not being fertile your "pumping" them. Have you tested your feed or water? Do you know what your grass & water has for minerals? Does your mineral compensate for what your short on in your area? Is your mineral available? For instance a cheap quality mineral might use oxides which is poor quality. If its there, but not available (digestable) its just going to go out the butt. Chealates is the other end. Its expensive. If your having issues or are really low on say zinc, maybe you need to feed chealates. If you don't know your mineral composition, you might be feeding chealates and "pumping" them. Not trying to insult, just you have been kinda vague. Ive heard fescue is hard to deal with. If that what you have to work with, well that's what you have to work with. Some vaccines are better than others. Some are worse. For instance I hate killed. Yet some vets will swear by them. It all depends on what your trying to tackle. I had a friend that had a bad breed back. He did a good job protocol wise. He never did figure it out. You might not either.

Id be interested in more information as to your protocol. Also the other forum's comments. There is a vast spread of opinions on the net. Nobody ever says their wrong! I'm not familiar with fescue. That sure could be some of it. Could be tric. Could be just flat poor fertility. I know some people that if they don't calve in 265 days, they go to town. No exceptions. To some that could be considered anal, others not. Every operation has different goals and different management. In all honesty, if your going to do something the better of a job you do the better you will be paid. Weather that's on a scale of 10 cows or 10,000. I'd talk to your vet. He should be somewhat knowledgable as to if tric is around or not, what kind of minerals your environment has, etc. Easiest/cheapest might be to just sell all and start over verses test for this test for that etc. It sure could be poor fertility. If you have a car where the engine burns a lot of oil, the tranny slipps, and rear end leakes. Its cheaper to get a new car than add oil, put lucas in the tranny, and fix your rear end seal...if you get what I mean.

Good luck
 
Beeffarm, it sounds like you are having a tough time getting getting started raising cows. You may be young enough that your grandpa may have been doing things for his cows you didn't know about, or could be one of the various problems others have suggested causing your cows not to cycle properly.

So this elder member of the group on this site will offer generalities.

First welcome to this site. It is interesting, sometimes contentious, more often very supportive of those having problems to solve. The members are involved in a very wide range of 'ranching' styles, sizes, and attitudes, imo. And many are involved in various enterprises, not just raising cattle. That, again imo, is a great thing about raising cattle: there is a 'style', or 'system', or 'method' to fit a great number of people with a great number of ideas about how "it is SUPPOSED to be done"! And just as many ways to do it that are "successful" and also a great many definitions of "success" in raising cattle. Maybe you are well aware of this. If so, please ignore it. In other words, I try not to be contentious, but don't mind stating my thoughts, either, but do try to be civil about it.

What probably 'set off' some of the comments you didn't appreciate, was the knowledge that bovine sexually transmitted disease (STD's) can affect neighboring herds, and they are diseases requiring government control in some areas to keep from spreading, thereby causing neighbors very expensive losses at no fault of their own. There probably other bovine diseases which can be transmitted from one herd to another, so people depending on their cattle for a living understandably get nervous when someone in the area is having problems with their cattle health.

The other is your strong implication that ranchers who work with a veterinarian and properly vaccinate, medicate, and feed their cattle are "pumping them up" with something dangerous. Using modern animal husbandry practices is NOT bad for cattle, nor for consumers who eat the meat from those animals. Maybe that isn't what you meant, but it sure is what most people using those terms mean!!! And that is in no small part because people working to end the use of cattle as food use those types of comments to scare consumers away from eating 'modern beef'.

In different circumstances, I might be producing cattle like you are trying to do......and sell them, or rather the meat, privately at premium prices as something like "pristine, never treated, fed anything but grass, etc., etc.," as some people do. However, I would realize that taking them to the local sale barn and running them through as "cattle" would probably not bring me much money. However, as I didn't have much spent on them, it would be fine.

Since I'm in a multiple member family ranch business, and we have worked hard to build a reputation for high quality range raised feeder cattle, between our five families, we can sell in semi-load units. We believe it pays to have a good working relationship with our Veterinarians, and in these days of attacks on beef in particular, such relationships are virtually required, and probably soon will be officially so.

Best wishes for success in your own terms for your cattle enterprise.

mrj
 

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