Define Productive

[Soapweed]

Soapweed, you move your cattle, so you are practicing a form of rotational grazing. :wink:

We do practice rotational grazing, but it is in modified form. I don't have a rigid by-the-book schedule set up ahead of time. Cattle are moved when and if conditions warrant. Our program is to sell calves at weaning time. I like to keep the cows with the selling calves on the best grass available. Probably I am "guilty" of moving out of some pastures ahead of when it is necessary, but I don't like to hurt a pasture and I don't like the calves that will soon be sold and their mothers to be short of grass at all. Even cows with replacement heifer calves at side don't get quite the special treatment that our cows with steers and heifers to be sold do. If there is unused grass it can always be grazed later in the season by cows after the calves are gone.

 

[RobertMac]

I don't have a rigid by-the-book schedule set up ahead of time.

Anyone properly doing rotational grazing doesn't have a rigid schedule. The schedule is based on climate conditions and recovery time. I've been doing it for almost 15 years and am still learning and changing. I'm not smart enough to understand what nature and my cows are trying to teach me.
You're one of us "nuts" and don't even realize it. :wink: :wink: :lol:

 

[scout]

Soapweed, you move your cattle, so you are practicing a form of rotational grazing. :wink:

We do practice rotational grazing, but it is in modified form. I don't have a rigid by-the-book schedule set up ahead of time. Cattle are moved when and if conditions warrant. Our program is to sell calves at weaning time. I like to keep the cows with the selling calves on the best grass available. Probably I am "guilty" of moving out of some pastures ahead of when it is necessary, but I don't like to hurt a pasture and I don't like the calves that will soon be sold and their mothers to be short of grass at all. Even cows with replacement heifer calves at side don't get quite the special treatment that our cows with steers and heifers to be sold do. If there is unused grass it can always be grazed later in the season by cows after the calves are gone.

a stockpiled forage in the fall is as good as cash in the fall when everybody is feeding hay. I think it was 2006 we had thirty fall pairs we had 2 inches of snow all winter all we feed was 8 bales of hay to those thirty pairs most profitable year i ever had .

 

[scout]

On a year like this I think I would rather have the heaviest calf I could raise. Now matter how you look at it, if the majority of your cows meet the same criteria cow weight is irrelvant. At what point does that criteria become easier to manage and improve upon? That is a question I would like the answer to.

How can you say cow weight is irrelvant. It is a major factor in everything in this thread,percentage of cow weight weaned , pounds weaned per acre . stocking ratios. If that cow does not wean a breakeven percentage of her bodyweight she is taking from the bottom line. The fact of the matter is we are all harvesting grass and selling it in the form of beef and the day we quit trying to be less efficant at it is the day we go out of business. a commodity sells at the average price of production the guys below the price of production stay in business the ones above go out.

 

[Northern Rancher]

He quoted some lunatic on his last newsletter lol.

 

[Richard Doolittle]

Not to be argumentative--just to make a correction here.......

If you have 3 calves weighing 600 lbs. and 1 calf weighing 400 lbs. what is the average? How many are above the average?

Answer is easy...if all you got is 4 cows, you're a hobby farmer and it doesn't matter!! :wink: :wink: :lol:
Arguing from the extreme only makes pointless points.

Big Swede and Herford 76 have it right...herd production will always be in a bell curve. Sell the bottom end and replace them with heifers from cows that are consistently SLIGHTLY above herd average and have proven themselves by having at least four good calves in a row starting at two(preferably sired by bulls from the same set of cows).

I would challenge all of you to wonder if there is a dollar or two left in a pasture and how can you harvest it.

Year in and year out, how do you harvest that last dollar?

I wasn't arguing from the extreme. I was using a simplified example so the guys from Missippi could understand :wink: :wink:

If you make culling decisions from the cows that produce below your herd average, you don't necessarily have to choose from half the herd. With a herd that produces good, uniform calves, the below average producers may only be a small percentage of the herd.

 

[flyingS]

Soapweed, you move your cattle, so you are practicing a form of rotational grazing. :wink:

We do practice rotational grazing, but it is in modified form. I don't have a rigid by-the-book schedule set up ahead of time. Cattle are moved when and if conditions warrant. Our program is to sell calves at weaning time. I like to keep the cows with the selling calves on the best grass available. Probably I am "guilty" of moving out of some pastures ahead of when it is necessary, but I don't like to hurt a pasture and I don't like the calves that will soon be sold and their mothers to be short of grass at all. Even cows with replacement heifer calves at side don't get quite the special treatment that our cows with steers and heifers to be sold do. If there is unused grass it can always be grazed later in the season by cows after the calves are gone.

That is what I am talking about. You are a steward of the land Soapweed. You take care of it during the growing season and utilize it during the dormit season. We all know or should know the importance of residual herbage. RSL put it best with planned grazing. Most of us have a plan in mind or written down. We have to remember that a plan is a guide that changes with circumstance. Probably the biggest mistake made is not seperating rest and recovery. You can rest a pasture without recovery but you can not recover without rest.

 

[flyingS]

On a year like this I think I would rather have the heaviest calf I could raise. Now matter how you look at it, if the majority of your cows meet the same criteria cow weight is irrelvant. At what point does that criteria become easier to manage and improve upon? That is a question I would like the answer to.

How can you say cow weight is irrelvant. It is a major factor in everything in this thread,percentage of cow weight weaned , pounds weaned per acre . stocking ratios. If that cow does not wean a breakeven percentage of her bodyweight she is taking from the bottom line. The fact of the matter is we are all harvesting grass and selling it in the form of beef and the day we quit trying to be less efficant at it is the day we go out of business. a commodity sells at the average price of production the guys below the price of production stay in business the ones above go out.

If you use simple math and try to figure on percentages, no matter how you do it a bigger cow always comes out ahead (when the same criteria is used for both cows). The question is at what weight does that cows maintance cost overcome her production income. Without running a true cost of production and just sitting down and saying this cow weighs X lbs and produces 50% of her body weight while consuming 3% of her body weight/day she produces X lbs. When figured this way the bigger cow comes out on top. When you find the point at which that cow breaks over the optimum weight you can really start to increase production. Everyone has a different opinion as to where that point is. My point is it is not as simple as getting out a calculator and looking at a book and saying this is how it works. A lot of emphasis is put on education, it seems experience will never be replaced.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Soapweed, you move your cattle, so you are practicing a form of rotational grazing. :wink:

We do practice rotational grazing, but it is in modified form. I don't have a rigid by-the-book schedule set up ahead of time. Cattle are moved when and if conditions warrant. Our program is to sell calves at weaning time. I like to keep the cows with the selling calves on the best grass available. Probably I am "guilty" of moving out of some pastures ahead of when it is necessary, but I don't like to hurt a pasture and I don't like the calves that will soon be sold and their mothers to be short of grass at all. Even cows with replacement heifer calves at side don't get quite the special treatment that our cows with steers and heifers to be sold do. If there is unused grass it can always be grazed later in the season by cows after the calves are gone.

That is what I am talking about. You are a steward of the land Soapweed. You take care of it during the growing season and utilize it during the dormit season. We all know or should know the importance of residual herbage. RSL put it best with planned grazing. Most of us have a plan in mind or written down. We have to remember that a plan is a guide that changes with circumstance. Probably the biggest mistake made is not seperating rest and recovery. You can rest a pasture without recovery but you can not recover without rest.

Around here most folks think the rest the pastures get from November through to April is enough for recovery :shock: :roll:

 

[leanin' H]

Out here on the desert where moisture is at such a premium rotational grazing is a must. But the Government agencys that govern public land are way too ridged in thier planning. Pasture A is rested every third year for the entire year. Same with pastures B and C. So each is used twice for about a 4 to 6 week period and then rested for an entire year. But when they are grazed is often overlooked. Spring rains make or break us. Without them we have almost no grazing on the foothills and have to go higher, sooner. Which means a foothills pasture is only grazed for two weeks. And then isnt used again until the next year. Even if the next week you get a down pour. And resting a pasture for the whole year isn't necessary as the desert grasses go to seed in July. Once they've reached that stage grazing them in a responsible manner in actually productive and stimulates regrowth through the fall. Plus it scatters seed and new plants sprout. So my point is time of usage, i.e. spring, summer, ect. and the stage of the grass should be two of the top factors in determining stocking capacity and rotational schedule. Some guys go into the same piece of private ground every spring. And you can watch the sage and rabbit brush encroach further and further into the grass. Not to mention the damage to the grass which shows up directly on how the cows do. I guess my point is, being a good steward requires flexibility and thought and most importantly, experience! Something the BLM and F.S. can't find in text books.

 

[Denny]

He quoted some lunatic on his last newsletter lol.

I read that.

Most grain farmers create enough by-products to run cows very cheap. Most of those are lower quality forage's,straw,corn stalks and if they feed the low quality grains it's just another way they make their living. Nothing wrong with your way if your happy but it is'nt the only right way.I sell alot of trailers in North Dakota and Montana and most of my customers have a small grain/ livestock operation that keeps them afloat and viable.

Is'nt a forage a forage cattle that can utilize all aspects of the forage and by-products are just as functional as cows grazeing grass and bale grazeing.

We can run cows cheaper on by-products alot of times cheaper than hay so thats what we'll do. Lowest cost is where we all need to be no matter the route getting there. I would'nt go slamming the people who have 2 jobs plus run cows those people show alot more work ethic than alot of full time Rancher's/internet cowboys.

I don't mean to be gruff but this continued slamming of Farmers and working people is wrong.Were all needed to make the world go round. I used to want to be called a Rancher but being called a farmer does'nt hurt my feelings in the least. As long as I'm not called lazy that I don't like..

 

[per]

I like to call myself an Entremanure.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Is that the fancy name for a BS'er per? :wink: :lol2: :lol2:

 

[gcreekrch]

When the arguments are all done and everyone has got mad and gone home the facts still remain.
Cow and calf weights don't matter, they are personal choices.
Land stewardship, you should have grass left over. If you don't, your cattle didn't gain all they were capable of.

It is how many dollars per hd your cows put in your pocket after expenses that counts.

 

[Yanuck]

He quoted some lunatic on his last newsletter lol.

I read that.

Most grain farmers create enough by-products to run cows very cheap. Most of those are lower quality forage's,straw,corn stalks and if they feed the low quality grains it's just another way they make their living. Nothing wrong with your way if your happy but it is'nt the only right way.I sell alot of trailers in North Dakota and Montana and most of my customers have a small grain/ livestock operation that keeps them afloat and viable.

Is'nt a forage a forage cattle that can utilize all aspects of the forage and by-products are just as functional as cows grazeing grass and bale grazeing.

We can run cows cheaper on by-products alot of times cheaper than hay so thats what we'll do. Lowest cost is where we all need to be no matter the route getting there. I would'nt go slamming the people who have 2 jobs plus run cows those people show alot more work ethic than alot of full time Rancher's/internet cowboys.

I don't mean to be gruff but this continued slamming of Farmers and working people is wrong.Were all needed to make the world go round. I used to want to be called a Rancher but being called a farmer does'nt hurt my feelings in the least. As long as I'm not called lazy that I don't like..

well said Denny...there are a few on here that could heed your advice

 

[Grassfarmer]

When the arguments are all done and everyone has got mad and gone home the facts still remain.
Cow and calf weights don't matter, they are personal choices.
Land stewardship, you should have grass left over. If you don't, your cattle didn't gain all they were capable of.

It is how many dollars per hd your cows put in your pocket after expenses that counts.

Yeah, and thinking/figuring about all the above mentioned factors is what allows you to earn more dollars to put in your pocket - ignorance is not bliss in my book. :wink:

 

[scout]

On a year like this I think I would rather have the heaviest calf I could raise. Now matter how you look at it, if the majority of your cows meet the same criteria cow weight is irrelvant. At what point does that criteria become easier to manage and improve upon? That is a question I would like the answer to.

How can you say cow weight is irrelvant. It is a major factor in everything in this thread,percentage of cow weight weaned , pounds weaned per acre . stocking ratios. If that cow does not wean a breakeven percentage of her bodyweight she is taking from the bottom line. The fact of the matter is we are all harvesting grass and selling it in the form of beef and the day we quit trying to be less efficant at it is the day we go out of business. a commodity sells at the average price of production the guys below the price of production stay in business the ones above go out.

If you use simple math and try to figure on percentages, no matter how you do it a bigger cow always comes out ahead (when the same criteria is used for both cows). The question is at what weight does that cows maintance cost overcome her production income. Without running a true cost of production and just sitting down and saying this cow weighs X lbs and produces 50% of her body weight while consuming 3% of her body weight/day she produces X lbs. When figured this way the bigger cow comes out on top. When you find the point at which that cow breaks over the optimum weight you can really start to increase production. Everyone has a different opinion as to where that point is. My point is it is not as simple as getting out a calculator and looking at a book and saying this is how it works. A lot of emphasis is put on education, it seems experience will never be replaced.

I absoultely agree with you experience is the best teacher there is.

 

[RobertMac]

Richard, I assume most all here don't need simplified examples and understand a production bell curve...except us folk in Mississippi. :wink: :wink: :lol: Culling the extremes on both ends moves toward that good, uniform calf crop...culling cows that raise a sorry calf and culling the cow raising the biggest calf when she turns up open.
No offence meant...Merry Christmas!!!!

 

[gcreekrch]

When the arguments are all done and everyone has got mad and gone home the facts still remain.
Cow and calf weights don't matter, they are personal choices.
Land stewardship, you should have grass left over. If you don't, your cattle didn't gain all they were capable of.

It is how many dollars per hd your cows put in your pocket after expenses that counts.

Yeah, and thinking/figuring about all the above mentioned factors is what allows you to earn more dollars to put in your pocket - ignorance is not bliss in my book. :wink:

Exactly.

It just makes more sense to me to learn from the experiences I have and watch the mistakes and triumphs of my immediate neighbors than to apply what works for you or Soapweed or Robertmac.
We are each in our own little micro-climate and have to learn to live with what Mother Nature delivers on a day to day basis.
Good stewardship is only a part of it, how you acchieve that is up to the individual.

Some neighbors here that attended a Ranching for Profit school two winters ago were told that we shouldn't even attempt to ranch in this area.
The instructors were possibly right but there are a few here who are successful in spite of this "knowledge".
Next time you are at one of these gatherings ask the instructors how many cattle they own. I know of at least two revered experts involved with the Grassfarmer/Stockman that don't own a cow.

 

[Richard Doolittle]

Richard, I assume most all here don't need simplified examples and understand a production bell curve...except us folk in Mississippi. :wink: :wink: :lol: Culling the extremes on both ends moves toward that good, uniform calf crop...culling cows that raise a sorry calf and culling the cow raising the biggest calf when she turns up open.
No offence meant...Merry Christmas!!!!

No offense taken. I get jabbed and I'll jab back

Sometimes when we get bogged down with details, it pays to point out the obvious. It was stated that no matter what, half the herd is below average and most often that is not true. I used a simple example to make my point.

MERRY CHRISTMAS ROBERTMAC!