Define Productive

[flyingS]

I have been reading Grass Farmer's End of an Era post. A question has come to mind as I read the post. What is your defintion of production? It seems to me we are seeing several different opinions. I am of a belief that a cow must produce enough to pull her weight measured by a herd average and cost of production. I know some people believe that any calf is better than no calf at all, basing culling practices on reproduction. I can't see how this can work, why would you keep a sub-par cow when you can replace her with one that tows the line. Manage for the top end of your cows not the bottom.

 

[Soapweed]

I have been reading Grass Farmer's End of an Era post. A question has come to mind as I read the post. What is your defintion of production? It seems to me we are seeing several different opinions. I am of a belief that a cow must produce enough to pull her weight measured by a herd average and cost of production. I know some people believe that any calf is better than no calf at all, basing culling practices on reproduction. I can't see how this can work, why would you keep a sub-par cow when you can replace her with one that tows the line. Manage for the top end of your cows not the bottom.

That is a good theory but no matter how many cows a ranch runs, half of them are going to be below average.

 

[Grassfarmer]

I have been reading Grass Farmer's End of an Era post. A question has come to mind as I read the post. What is your defintion of production? It seems to me we are seeing several different opinions. I am of a belief that a cow must produce enough to pull her weight measured by a herd average and cost of production. I know some people believe that any calf is better than no calf at all, basing culling practices on reproduction. I can't see how this can work, why would you keep a sub-par cow when you can replace her with one that tows the line. Manage for the top end of your cows not the bottom.

Not really sure I follow you flyingS - I agree that "a cow must produce enough to pull her weight measured by a herd average and cost of production." I am inclined to think too many people focus on the former (assuming you are talking weaning weights)and ignore the latter part (cost of production). One way to have a very low cost of production is to run low input cattle that turn in a calf year after year for a very long time. In the grand scheme of things if such a cow turned in a -20lb weaning weight calf all her life (which my old cow didn't by the way) that would be insignificant if she produced to 16 versus 8. Cow depreciation is the biggest uncounted cost on most ranches in my opinion.
You talk also about replacing sub-par cows with better ones - the difficulty with that is you often don't know what you are buying/breeding until they are proven and you don't know what you've got till it's gone. Looking back many of the spectacular performers - the ones that looked like stars at age 4 were very poor lifetime performers compared to the one that lasted 6 years longer with an average or even below average calf. I'm not saying we shouldn't have standards - we ship a few cows every year because they just don't produce enough relative to their cost of keeping but in general I rank reproduction way more important than weaning weight. Too much emphasis on weaning weight leads to selection of more milk which increases production cost. It's always a balancing act getting optimum production for profitability under your conditions.

 

[Aaron]

I have been reading Grass Farmer's End of an Era post. A question has come to mind as I read the post. What is your defintion of production? It seems to me we are seeing several different opinions. I am of a belief that a cow must produce enough to pull her weight measured by a herd average and cost of production. I know some people believe that any calf is better than no calf at all, basing culling practices on reproduction. I can't see how this can work, why would you keep a sub-par cow when you can replace her with one that tows the line. Manage for the top end of your cows not the bottom.

That is a good theory but no matter how many cows a ranch runs, half of them are going to be below average.

The key is to keep the margin of difference between the top producing cow and the poorest producing cow quite narrow.

 

[novatech]

I have been reading Grass Farmer's End of an Era post. A question has come to mind as I read the post. What is your defintion of production? It seems to me we are seeing several different opinions. I am of a belief that a cow must produce enough to pull her weight measured by a herd average and cost of production. I know some people believe that any calf is better than no calf at all, basing culling practices on reproduction. I can't see how this can work, why would you keep a sub-par cow when you can replace her with one that tows the line. Manage for the top end of your cows not the bottom.

Starting with dirt and figuring out how to turn it into money. The cattle are only one element in the total operation. There are so many skills one needs to be proficient at that it is hard to imagine.
Having said that I believe that most would agree that fertility is probably the most important trait for any beef cattle operation. Next is efficiency. Not only in feed conversion but health. The cattle must fit the environment they are given. Last but not least is marketability.
There are a whole bunch of other desirable traits that are important but I figure most already know them and can chose which are the most important to their particular operation.

 

[flyingS]

I have been reading Grass Farmer's End of an Era post. A question has come to mind as I read the post. What is your defintion of production? It seems to me we are seeing several different opinions. I am of a belief that a cow must produce enough to pull her weight measured by a herd average and cost of production. I know some people believe that any calf is better than no calf at all, basing culling practices on reproduction. I can't see how this can work, why would you keep a sub-par cow when you can replace her with one that tows the line. Manage for the top end of your cows not the bottom.

That is a good theory but no matter how many cows a ranch runs, half of them are going to be below average.

There is no doubt that there are going to be some below average. As Aaron said keeping the margin of difference narrow is the key. Look around and see how many people set there program up to keep the poor doing cows in their system. If you manage them all the same you are giving up a lot of dollars somewhere. I am not saying that the cow that raises the biggest calf is the best cow on the ranch or that the cow that raises the lightest is the worst. I would bet both of them are costing you way more money than the average. When you read my first post everyone automatically assumes SUB-PAR is the cow that produces the lightest calf. In reality she might be the cow that breeds and calves in the last half or 3rd of your calving period or the cow that calves first and weans the lightest calf. My question is do we track that. Reproduction is sure the most important, if she doesn't become pregnant she can't have a calf. How effeciently can she do that? What is the criteria for reproductive efficiency? Do people preg test cows, what is the lenght of your breeding and calving season? Do you set up a program that is based on keeping as many cows as you can in your system? Or is it one that keeps the maximum number of productive cows in your system? I am not saying anyone is wrong or right I am just wondering how other people think and trying to find something useful.. I appreciate the input. My hope is that someone will find an "AH HA" in this post that might help them sustain there operation.
By the way GrassFarmer I am not singleing you out because of your herd age. I am asking everyone, What oils there machine? I want to know how you have created longevity in your herd and what is to be gained by it. I hope it is not just as simple as keeping her if she breeds back. We could all improve our bottom line somehow, I want to know how.

 

[flyingS]

One more thought, then I got to get to work. Everywhere I go it seems that people focus on what you can't do. I hear people say that you can't graze meadows instead of hay, you can't get cattle to eat soapweeds or spurge, etc. etc. They are not looking for something new or different. I am wired different I want to know what I can do, so I push to find out. There is not an exact answer, just a better way. I feel bad for the people that are not always seeking improvement, I wonder how long they can last. I hope a long time, but I wouldn't bet on it in this economy.

 

[PATB]

There is nothing that can not be accomplished by some hard work and ingenuity. Lack of fertility and bad disposition are 2 things that can get you a ride to town. I see nothing wrong with culling 10 plus percent of the herd every year. Lasater method works for me. you must deliver an acceptable calf at weaning and be bred back and can be work with no problems. I am always looking for new ideas or ways to do something that will help the bottom line.

 

[Justin]

as far as i'm concerened, being productive is doing what ever is neccessary to feed the family, keep a roof over head, pay the bills(at least most of them :wink: ), all while keeping the banker content.

 

[novatech]

My question is do we track that.
You track everthing, cow by cow.
Reproduction is sure the most important, if she doesn't become pregnant she can't have a calf. How effeciently can she do that?
What is the criteria for reproductive efficiency?
A calf per year or she is out.
Do people preg test cows,
Yes. 30 days after the end of breeding season.
what is the lenght of your breeding and calving season?
3 months with AI or 2 months with a bull.
Do you set up a program that is based on keeping as many cows as you can in your system? Or is it one that keeps the maximum number of productive cows in your system?
My stocking rate is based at 25% less that the normal capacity. Extra grass goes to hay or stockers. It also leaves me some stock piled forage. That prepares me for most weather changes.

 

[Doug Thorson]

The key is to keep the margin of difference between the top producing cow and the poorest producing cow quite narrow.

That says it all. Good reply Aaron. I agree.

 

[RobertMac]

We could all improve our bottom line somehow, I want to know how.

A dollar saved nets you a dollar.
A dollar of increased production cost you some part of that dollar.
Ever wonder why an input salesman drives a better truck than you do?

There is nothing that can not be accomplished by some hard work and ingenuity. Lack of fertility and bad disposition are 2 things that can get you a ride to town. I see nothing wrong with culling 10 plus percent of the herd every year. Lasater method works for me. you must deliver an acceptable calf at weaning and be bred back and can be work with no problems. I am always looking for new ideas or ways to do something that will help the bottom line.

For those interested in what PATB is talking about.
http://www.isacattleco.com/Beefmasters/books.html

My belief is that God created cattle to convert unless forage into a usable product, beef. The cow herd needs to be adapted to the natural resources and environment of your land with as little extra as possible. A very important key is to have your calving season in sync with your forage cycle.

 

[Grassfarmer]

OK, I understand the question better now. My old cows were bred by a guy with a simple system - if she turns in a calf in a 6 week calving period she stays ...period. Culled opens and anything that came in dry for any reason including wolf and coyote killed calves. That was in an ultra low input, no assistance kind of ranch. This is partly how the longevity was achieved - you could say it was selected for - although part is also genetic.
To my mind that is not enough selection for a purebred herd. I prefer to also cull out a % based on low weaning weight. One thing that influences this decision is cull cow price. It maybe hasn't affected you southerners as much but since the cull cow price halved in Canada in 03 it alters lots of things. Lots of heavy weight simmy type cows worked well when cull prices were high, get a few great calves and then cull them if they were open but the economics of that policy all changes when the cull price collapses.

I always winter feed my cows in two groups based on condition - one group is heifers and most of the 2nd calvers plus a few leaner mature cows. We are now culling from our purebred herd any mature cow (and offspring) that needs to be in the leaner group 2 winters running. We breed for 7 week, cull opens and carefully track the sub-fertile cows that have a habit of calving late within that period. It is surprising how much they can pull down your average weaning weights and they usually make the move from late to open anyway.
One important thing that I've learnt from reading Larry Leonhart is that Form Follows Function. Too many of us are set up to pick a type we think is ideal for our system (or someone else advocates is best for our system - breed/size weight etc) - whether it be buying heifer replacements at a certain weight or bulls a certain type. Often when they don't all work out so good we change the system to keep them in the herd. Instead we should be running our ranches with the system that returns the most profit and selecting the animals that fit that system best. We are now doing exactly that and it is giving us a different herd than we started with. Let the system do the picking.

 

[per]

My system is amazingly similar to Grassfarmer's. 45 day main herd breeding. 25 day hf breeding picks out the fertile ones and the opens are eligible for grass fed freezer beef. Two groups of cows in winter like Gf. The bottom line for me is a calf every year and no help from me. If I have to intervene or she has any type of structure issue or comes home not pregnant or without a calf she is history. Around here the Cow is the worker.

 

[PureCountry]

Productive = weaning 60% of her body weight every year until she's at least 15.

Efficient = a cow that raises a live calf every year without ever having to be treated, helped or handled.

Ideal = blending the 2 above points in order to achieve PROFIT. :wink:

Profitable Cow =

 

[RSL]

PC - and you can sell the antlers...

I agree on the system approach. Perhaps the worst thing ever for efficient beef cattle is getting heaters, air conditioners and radios into tractor cabs.

 

[Grassfarmer]

PC - and you can sell the antlers...

I agree on the system approach. Perhaps the worst thing ever for efficient beef cattle is getting heaters, air conditioners and radios into tractor cabs.

Maybe my cattle became more efficient when I bought my tractor then :???: air conditioning doesn't work in summer and the heater barely works in winter...that's why I don't like tractor work

 

[Grassfarmer]

Productive = weaning 60% of her body weight every year until she's at least 15.

PC - I like my older cows but I think the above is an impossibility to do on a herd basis. I don't even think we can expect to come close assuming you are talking about a regular type weaning age. You are working with two opposites - high production and longevity. I believe you could have a herd weaning 60% of bodyweight, that's relatively easy. I don't think it will be easy to get herd average to 15 - 10 yes but beyond that's a stretch (What was the average cow culling age in beef herds in the US quoted on here a few months ago? was it around 5 years old?)
Expecting the same cowherd to do both is impossible IMHO

 

[scout]

I guess all of are defenitons for productivity are different . a cow on this outfit has to wean a calf 1/3 of her body min. to justify keeping her see has to breed for a sixty day calving period and anything over 45 days is in danger of being culled. with the smaller numbers i have to keep them together other wise they are sold as singles and pairs. as for the 1/3 of there body weight a cow roughly consumes 3% of there body weight she has to pay for that feed to justify the rent or the harvested winter feed. we sell pounds that is a sad fact of life unless you retain ownership all the way to the rail . a cow that just covers her maintance is nothing more than added cost to the cows that are making money. just my opionion :roll:

 

[movin' on]

Right On!!

I can't tell you the times I have heard "well, I'm sure that works great for you, but it would never work for me."

People in Mississippi would tell you, Grassfarmer(and others of you Northern grazing legends), that you may be able to graze cows all winter, but there is simply no way that they could. 2,000 miles further South and they would actually look at you with a straight face and say that!

Flyins S, I think you are dead on. The vast majority of people either spend time thinking of things that they CAN do, or spend time thinking of reasons why they cant.

Great Post.

One more thought, then I got to get to work. Everywhere I go it seems that people focus on what you can't do. I hear people say that you can't graze meadows instead of hay, you can't get cattle to eat soapweeds or spurge, etc. etc. They are not looking for something new or different. I am wired different I want to know what I can do, so I push to find out. There is not an exact answer, just a better way. I feel bad for the people that are not always seeking improvement, I wonder how long they can last. I hope a long time, but I wouldn't bet on it in this economy.