Define Productive

[flyingS]

In a perfect world, I would like to see my cows breed in a 45 day breeding period with about 90% calving in 30 days. Next she would have to be a moderate framed cow. Something that would effeciently convert forage to pounds. Then would come weaning percentage. She would have to wean a calf at 6 months of age that is no less than 50% of her body weight (with a lot of emphasis on 60%). For those that don't tag figure a standard deviation at weaning and anything under that mark somehow and turn back out with the cows. When they pair up sort off the pair and haul them to town. Absolutely no matter what there would be no second chances. Sometimes we look at criteria that we would like to change or implement and think I can't afford to do that. How can you afford not to? If we do not take steps toward improvement we can not get better. Baby steps lead to sprints, remember Rome wasn't built in a day. It may take several years but at least there would be improvement. In order to maximize dollars of return you have to have load lots of calves to sell. Uniformity is the key. Remember to ask your neighbor when he starts to critisize your operation what his bottom line is and see if he still wants to talk shop. I had always put a lot of emphasis on weaning weights until I was asked to figure total lbs produced and compare it. I had summered about 580 pair, when we weaned my calves were 40lbs lighter than the year before, I was dissappointed. When I ran the figures I had produced somewhere around 127,000 more lbs of beef, about 16lbs more to the acre. Now I could compare production. My theory ever since has been "Put your money where your mouth is".

 

[RSL]

good point on the per acre figure. Total pounds of saleable product per acre is not a bad way to look at things. Productivity of an individual cow can be more heavily related to fertility than weaning weight if calves are weaned early and grassed the next summer. To produce pounds per acre you need lots of calves. I think pounds weaned per cow exposed is a pretty good number herdwide as long as we think about how we do things. Early weaners will likely be less pounds per cow exposed unless the fertility is higher than late weaning herds.

Just talking weaning weight or weaning weight as a percent of cow weight is like a grain farmer telling you he got 37 hopper loads off a field without knowing the size of the combine or the size of the field.

I think that for most of us our real fixed asset that must generate returns is the land base, so we should probably try to control variable costs and work on cow herds and marketing programs that sustainably generate the most NET cash per acre. That can be weaned calves, cull cows, grass cattle, or whatever other enterprise that fits. The efficient cow should fit the fixed asset (land) and work within whatever is deemed acceptable variable costs (feed, vaccination, marketing, etc.)

 

[efb]

[
That is a good theory but no matter how many cows a ranch runs, half of them are going to be below average.[/quote]

Not necessarily. The more uniform you have selected you cows to be from a production point the less variation you could have. Let's just pick weaning weight for example. Let's say your avg. ww is 550. The more uniform your genetics are the more of your cows would wean a 550 lb. calf. In that case it is possible only 1/3rd of you cows would be below avg. Or, in theory, if you had a herd of cloned cows I guess they would all be average :???: :???:

 

[LazyWP]

This has been one of the better threads, as far as thought provoking I think I have read. Thanks to all of you for your input and ideas. Flying S, i think you have challenged a lot of us to examine what we are doing, and to see if we can improve on it.

 

[jingo2]

Goodness....anyone who has half their herd, no matter the herd size, BELOW production needs to get out of the business.

That's sounds like a hobby rancher.

Any percentage that is considered "below" standard should be in the single digits, like 3% or the like....but if you have 50% below production you don't know what you're doing or you got plenty of money to blow.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Another factor to consider when you start talking about weaning weights and lbs per acre produced is the quality of your grazing land. Calves don't only drink milk they eat grass and if you increase cattle numbers to increase your lbs per acre your grass quality may decline.
As an example when we used to sell calves we averaged 3/lb day gain on the calves (that's real gain with the bw deducted from ww divided by days of age at weaning) We have altered the focus of our operation now to feed less and graze longer - sometimes this means cows grazing poorer quality feed and hence the rate of gain on the calves has dropped to around 2.6lb/day We are ok with that because we no longer sell calves, only yearlings.
Looking at the pictures of the different terrain some of the posters ranch on I think it will always be tough to get the gains you dream of to wean a 60% calf. For a 1300lb cow having an 80lb birth weight calf to wean 60% the calf needs to have a real gain of 3.5lbs over 200 days. That's a tall order on most of the western range country I would guess. To wean 50% the calf needs to gain 2.85lb. There is more to weaning a high % of dams weight than getting a "right size" cow with a lot of milk - you need to consider your landbase too and it's ability to produce the kind of gains required.
As with anything over focusing on % weaning weight could get you in a pile of trouble. A bunch of high milking, skinny cows might turn in calves 60% or more of their own weight but they likely won't winter well and may not re-breed.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Your right on the forage quality. Even the cows milking ability will be different on high quality forage. I remember some of the first calves raised on tame forages in the area and they sure fooled the cattle buyers as they sure weighed up.

 

[Soapweed]

Goodness....anyone who has half their herd, no matter the herd size, BELOW production needs to get out of the business.

That's sounds like a hobby rancher.

Any percentage that is considered "below" standard should be in the single digits, like 3% or the like....but if you have 50% below production you don't know what you're doing or you got plenty of money to blow.

If you are referring to my post, when I said half of a ranch's cows are below average, I am talking about the average of that ranch. If a ranch produces 101 calves, one calf will be average, 50 calves will be "above average" and 50 calves will be "below average."

Welcome back, Kolanuraven/jingo2. :wink:

 

[Justin]

Goodness....anyone who has half their herd, no matter the herd size, BELOW production needs to get out of the business.

That's sounds like a hobby rancher.

Any percentage that is considered "below" standard should be in the single digits, like 3% or the like....but if you have 50% below production you don't know what you're doing or you got plenty of money to blow.

i agree with Soapweed. unless all your cows are exactly the same, half of them will be below the average of that particular herd, won't they? in my mind the ave and the standard are two different things. the bottom half of your cows still need to meet the standard the producer sets, whatever that may be. i also think the same rules need to apply to the bulls aswell.

 

[Faster horses]

An old rancher we used to know that tended to keep things simple,
always said, "A cow has to do three things. She has to have a calf,
save it, and breed back. Those that don't, go to town.

That's perhaps too simple for this thread, but what he said has merit.

 

[flyingS]

Another factor to consider when you start talking about weaning weights and lbs per acre produced is the quality of your grazing land. Calves don't only drink milk they eat grass and if you increase cattle numbers to increase your lbs per acre your grass quality may decline.
As an example when we used to sell calves we averaged 3/lb day gain on the calves (that's real gain with the bw deducted from ww divided by days of age at weaning) We have altered the focus of our operation now to feed less and graze longer - sometimes this means cows grazing poorer quality feed and hence the rate of gain on the calves has dropped to around 2.6lb/day We are ok with that because we no longer sell calves, only yearlings.
Looking at the pictures of the different terrain some of the posters ranch on I think it will always be tough to get the gains you dream of to wean a 60% calf. For a 1300lb cow having an 80lb birth weight calf to wean 60% the calf needs to have a real gain of 3.5lbs over 200 days. That's a tall order on most of the western range country I would guess. To wean 50% the calf needs to gain 2.85lb. There is more to weaning a high % of dams weight than getting a "right size" cow with a lot of milk - you need to consider your landbase too and it's ability to produce the kind of gains required.
As with anything over focusing on % weaning weight could get you in a pile of trouble. A bunch of high milking, skinny cows might turn in calves 60% or more of their own weight but they likely won't winter well and may not re-breed.

I would ask do you have the right cow for the job? Does your program fit your environment? Grazing is probably by far the most important aspect of management. If you do not have grass you do not have feed.
Grass Farmer this is where I would ask those producers if they are doing all they can do or just what they know. What is really possible. Now that we have discussed production maybe we should discuss grazing management. I would challenge all of you to wonder if there is a dollar or two left in a pasture and how can you harvest it. What really is the maximum sustainable range production.

 

[scout]

I ll probaly confuse myself here but here it goes . if a 1300 pound cow weans 1/3 of her body weight she should wean a 429 pound calf. If you feed stored forage for 150 days she consumes 5850 pounds roughly 4 1500 round bales figure 35 dollars a bale production is 140 dollars stored feed. here we figure roughly 3 acres to the pair the average rent is 30 dollars acre so 90 dollars per head. at 3% of body weight that 3 acres is producing 8385 pounds of feed so the total is.

$140
$90
= $230 feed cost 429 x 1.00=429 now compare to 1600 pound cow
1600 1/3 = 528 5 bales + extra 1/2 acre forage
175+157=332 528x 1.00=528
332-230=102 528-429 =101 only a dollar difference.

 

[Hereford76]

The key is to keep the margin of difference between the top producing cow and the poorest producing cow quite narrow.

That says it all. Good reply Aaron. I agree.

aarons post reminded me of something i have always thought was kind of funny. the aha, the canadian assoc, and i suppose other breeds also - give a nice recognition to breeders. the aha recognition is the "dam of distinction" and all these breeders try to make the top ten list of most dod in their herd. i've always thought they should give the award to the herd with the tightest bell curves. cause for every cow you have that avg nr's at 105 you have one that does it at 95. i'd like to see how many of those dod herds would have the numbers they have if the females were all contemporaried together and if they calved the heifers the same time as the cows.

 

[Big Swede]

The whole time I have been reading this thread, my education with bell curves kept coming to mind. No matter if you are averaging 450# at weaning or 650# at weaning you will have a similar shaped bell curve. If you are interested in improving your herd I would suggest culling the bottom 10% of your herd after you have adjusted their weaning weights. This will eliminate some of your older cows, some younger cows that absolutely have no milk, probably some unsound cows etc. However, replacing cows isn't cheap. If the heifer you developed to replace that poor producing cow comes up open after her first calf, you really have really dug yourself a hole. So making sure you develop that heifer to have her first calf and many more in the future is very important.

Another thing that kept coming up is weaning 50% to 60% of a cow's weight. That's a tall order for most herds unless you have really high milking cows, which takes more feed to rebreed yada yada. Big weaning weights come at a big cost. Moderation in all things will probably net most people more money. Grassfarmer's math was an eye opener. From all the records I have kept, 2.6# of gain per calf per day is pretty reasonable.

 

[Liveoak]

An old rancher we used to know that tended to keep things simple,
always said, "A cow has to do three things. She has to have a calf,
save it, and breed back. Those that don't, go to town.

That's perhaps too simple for this thread, but what he said has merit.

Sometimes simple is the best thing!! I think your dead on, FH!!!! The best BCS's, conformation, epd's, gpd etc, don't have much value unless the cow has the three basic components you have mentioned. With them, your in the game. Without them, it's over.

 

[scout]

An old rancher we used to know that tended to keep things simple,
always said, "A cow has to do three things. She has to have a calf,
save it, and breed back. Those that don't, go to town.

That's perhaps too simple for this thread, but what he said has merit.

Sometimes simple is the best thing!! I think your dead on, FH!!!! The best BCS's, conformation, epd's, gpd etc, don't have much value unless the cow has the three basic components you have mentioned. With them, your in the game. Without them, it's over.

Simple is the best thing but you have to have a minuim standard for the cow to live up to otherwise she is taking from the bottom line not adding to it.

 

[Richard Doolittle]

Goodness....anyone who has half their herd, no matter the herd size, BELOW production needs to get out of the business.

That's sounds like a hobby rancher.

Any percentage that is considered "below" standard should be in the single digits, like 3% or the like....but if you have 50% below production you don't know what you're doing or you got plenty of money to blow.

i agree with Soapweed. unless all your cows are exactly the same, half of them will be below the average of that particular herd, won't they? in my mind the ave and the standard are two different things. the bottom half of your cows still need to meet the standard the producer sets, whatever that may be. i also think the same rules need to apply to the bulls aswell.

Not to be argumentative--just to make a correction here.......

If you have 3 calves weighing 600 lbs. and 1 calf weighing 400 lbs. what is the average? How many are above the average?

 

[Big Swede]

Depends on how old each calf is. The 400 pounder might be out of the best mother. :wink:

 

[flyingS]

Age is sure a factor but if that calf is 2 months younger why is his mother still in your herd. The right question is which is the exception and which is the rule? If the 600 lb calves are the exception that is a bonus if they are the rule are you going to cater to the cow with the 400 lb calf, someone else is carrying her weight. What about opportunity to net more lbs per acre. Simple math would show that if you are running a herd average of 1300 lbs and you have 500 mother cows you should be able to run 540, 1200 cows. Just to make it simple, we will say it takes 20 acres to run a 1300 lb cow and a 1300 lb cow weans a 650lb calf and a 1200 lb cow weans a 600 calf. The 1300 lb herd will produce 32.5 lbs/acre while the 1200 lb herd produces 32.4lbs/acre. Maybe the more moderate cow is not the answer. It looks like to me, in order to increase production it doesn't matter the size of the cow if you have the same criteria but how many acres you can run her on.

 

[flyingS]

On a year like this I think I would rather have the heaviest calf I could raise. Now matter how you look at it, if the majority of your cows meet the same criteria cow weight is irrelvant. At what point does that criteria become easier to manage and improve upon? That is a question I would like the answer to.