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Does the Feed Ban Really Work?

10% of what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10% of downers? Give me a break.

The only reason Canada had a couple more cases idendified was beacause of the program to pay farmers for the ones that would have been left fo coyote bait.

This is definately one area that America and Canada differ, but so what. Both of our testing numbers are so minor that they are almost useless.

More testing will find more. Will this stop BSE - No, but maybe just maybe it will help producers and shall I say packers, sell beef in the new era we have been forced into - the BSE beef era.
 
Reader: "I do hang around non-USDA TSE researchers and hear what they say about the USDA and it's not pretty. I listen to USDA speak. I read their press releases. I read everything I can about TSEs."
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Why only "NON" USDA TSE researchers? Why not both? How can you possibly form an objective opinion by not hearing both sides of the debate? USDA critics are a dime a dozen. USDA gets hit from all sides yet they are the only entity that is held publicly accountable. How ironic!

If you want to form an objective opinion on BSE you need to hear the entire debate from both sides point/counterpoint.


Reader: "Where do you get your information - The National Enquirer?"
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How did you know?


Reader: "By the way, the remark about me scaring my kids was both factually incorrect and way out of line buddy. I share none of this information with my kids."
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You told us that your kids didn't eat beef because they watched their father die of CJD. Those are your words.

Where would your kids have gotten the notion that CJD is linked to eating beef if not from you when that is what you yourself believe?

If you think I am going to dance around this issue out of fear of offending you, you are mistaken. The truth on this issue is far more important to me than worrying about offending you. Everyone here, including myself has expressed their sincere sympathy for the loss of your husband and cut you some slack but frankly, I'm tired of listening to you speculate on a link between CJD and eating beef.

When you can offer proof positive of a link between CJD and eating beef, you will have my undivided respect. Without proof positive, I don't take "speculation", "theories", and "opinions" about the safety of beef lightly.

I see you diverted the questions again, imagine that!




~SH~
 
rkaiser said:
10% of what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10% of downers? Give me a break.

The only reason Canada had a couple more cases idendified was beacause of the program to pay farmers for the ones that would have been left fo coyote bait.

This is definately one area that America and Canada differ, but so what. Both of our testing numbers are so minor that they are almost useless.

More testing will find more. Will this stop BSE - No, but maybe just maybe it will help producers and shall I say packers, sell beef in the new era we have been forced into - the BSE beef era.
Click to expand...

What the hell were we talking about Randy?
Testing 10% of ANYTHING leaves 90% UNTESTED.
Give you are BREAK? OK here's your break.....
100-10=90

Although I do agree that testing more will reveal more, there would be no possibility of a coverup to give the blood thirsty media.
 
Hey randy,

I appreciate the fact that you are man enough to have a knock down drag out debate on one issue with me and respond civilly on the next.

Speaks well of your character!


RK: "I asked SH what he thought of testing OTM cattle for market acess on another thread with no response. I'll quote again, a bit from one of our BIG C newsletters."
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Sorry that I didn't respond. It wasn't intentional.

First what are we talking about?

Are we talking about a potential "live animal test" for shipping live animals or are we talking about current testing methodology to ship OTM carcasses?

Either way, I think OTM cattle testing is more justifiable than UTM cattle.

In your situation of having to address R-CULT's "bse fear mongering" about Canadian beef, it may be your only option. That's unfortunate.

Keep in mind that AMI sued USDA to allow the importation of OTM cattle without testing.


~SH~
 
Reader: "Europe is a better predictor of North American prevalence."
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How the heck can Europe be an indicator for North America unless you are suggesting that every condition is the same?

Your speculation knows no bounds does it?


Mike,

Many biological studies in wild animals use small percentages of the populations to measure the impact on the overall populations. It's a mathematical equation of percentages that will eventually expose what is being sought if it's there. I am not qualified to explain it but I have seen this same principle applied to numerous situations.

We use small sample sizes to measure many diseases in wildlife. The percentages are simply compounded accordingly.

Don't bother to ask me to explain it further because I am not a mathematician.

It's so unfortunate that a USDA BSE researcher is not here to present their position and answer your criticisms. All I know is that USDA is held publicly accountable where their critics are not.



~SH~
 
Many biological studies in wild animals use small percentages of the populations to measure the impact on the overall populations. It's a mathematical equation of percentages that will eventually expose what is being sought if it's there. I am not qualified to explain it but I have seen this same principle applied to numerous situations.

We use small sample sizes to measure many diseases in wildlife. The percentages are simply compounded accordingly.

Don't bother to ask me to explain it further because I am not a mathematician.
Click to expand...

Works pretty much the same way a "POLL" does. They call 100 people and report that an "Entire" cross section will vote a certain way.

But is it accurate enough to be playing with my livelihood and possibly people's lives? I'm not convinced.
 
Mike,

You need to look at the BSE prevention measures as a whole, not just individually.

Individually, you may very well find holes in every precautionary measure.

When you look at them from a 3 tier level, it gives it a whole different perspective.


Could some cows have eaten contaminated feed? Possibly!

Could some cows that had eaten contaminated feed escape the BSE surveilance testing? Possibly!

Could some cows that had eaten contaminated feed and escaped the BSE surveilance testing had enough BSE prions in THEIR MEAT to pass BSE on to humans since the SRMs were removed? Highly unlikely!

That's how I see it!

You can split hairs on individual protective measures forever but you need to look at them as a whole because that is the manner in which they are.




~SH~
 
Reader: "You have just betrayed your PROFOUND ignorance."
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Well thank you very little!


Reader: "Beef likely caused vCJD."
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"LIKELY" causED????

Where is your proof?

Admit it, the proof doesn't exist! It's "theory", "speculation", "opinion", and "conjecture"


Reader: "I certainly have not told my kids that their dad got CJD from beef."
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If you didn't tell your kids that their dad got CJD from beef, why are they afraid to eat beef?

Who would have given them that notion?



~SH~
 
There are numerous studies showing that the BSE prions and vCJD prions and the vacuoles (holes in the brain) are EXACTLY alike.

All of the prion diseases can obviously be differentiated from each other.
CWD, CJD, etc. The French even confirmed BSE in a goat, which astounded them but makes my point of being differentiated.

The chances that these two prions (and damages) are EXACTLY the same and that vCJD does not come from ingesting BSE prions is infinitely small.
 
OK reader, fair enough.

I had incorrectly assumed your kids were younger than that based on previous posts. My apologies!


Reader: "Only you, Kathy, and Randy deny the relationship between BSE and vCJD. Can you say DE-NI-AL?"
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Denial of what? The "theories" that you want to believe???

If there's no proof, there is nothing to deny!

WHERE'S YOUR PROOF READER?

Where's the science that supports your contention?

BRING IT!!!!!!!!!

You're so brainwashed with BSE theories and USDA criticism that you forgot that theories have to be proven to become fact.

Now who's in denial?

"THEORY", "SPECULATION", AND "OPINION", DOES NOT BECOME FACT JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IT AS FACT!

Until you can support the theories you want to believe with facts, YOU GOT NOTHING READER, period.


Reader: "I agree that removing SRM from OTM helps but are UTM and OTM processed reliably in separate slaughtering houses?"

"Is SRM removal done correctly?"

"There are a lot of ways infected meat can enter the food chain. If the animal is 29 months, the central nervous system -- meaning brains and spine -- are not removed at all."
Click to expand...


Reader,

What good does it do to continually ask questions if you are unwilling to seek the answers from the agency that you are questioning?

You can't possibly form an objective opinion the way you are going about this and nobody here can answer for USDA.

I trust USDA more than I trust the USDA critics because USDA is held accountable to the public and the critics aren't. The critics can say whatever they want and if they are wrong, so what? Who's going to sue them for their opinions and theories?



~SH~
 
Give me a break and give yourself a break. Only you, Kathy, and Randy deny the relationship between BSE and vCJD. Can you say DE-NI-AL?
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Three against the world --- I don't think so reader.

This is a difficult thread as I said earlier. Differences within differences. Ad that to the fact that Randy is his usual misunderstood self. Sorry guys, language the same, perception different. Very difficult to make a point when everyone else on this thread assumes the transmission theory to be true.

Mike - My "10% give me a break claim" was about my beleif that there is no where near 10% of downers tested for BSE in either the USA or Canada. 99% of downers get put in the bush.

Reader - When I talk of clapping, I talk of actual actions by Veterinarians in the UK to make an initial link to a potential BSE cow. It happened, and no it did not afford a decision, only a sign of neurodegenerative disorder.
Does that help, or should I write in Arabic? No this is not a direct explaination for Sonic impact on potential BSE cattle, but you admited yourself that victims are highly sensitive to light and sound.

SH - I talk of testing OTM beef with the current "Canadian" testing methods for shipping carcasses overseas, or maybe even to American customers, "IF THEY ASK".
Also - Of course the AMI would sue to allow OTM cattle. Could you help me with this one. Is Tyson a member of AMI? Tyson would be the only packer in Canada that would be in the position to slaughter and ship OTM beef to the USA should the new rule be upheld (OTM Boxed beef only). If I were a packer south of the 49th, and not Tyson, I would fight that one like hell too.

If Tyson foods is a member of AMI, and you can tell me that they were fully behind opening to OTM cattle, my story makes no sense.

Remeber SH - Canada's packing industry consists of 1 Cargill plant, 1 Tyson plant, 1 plant that Cargill is purchasing, 1 small Canadian player called Neilsen Brothers (with American money), and a smattering of little players that make no difference to market, price, or any other arguable point.
 
Randy,

I don't know if Tyson is a member of AMI or not all I know is that AMI filed a lawsuit against USDA to allow the importation of OTM cattle.


~SH~
 
Reader maybe some of what I have learned about getting the facts to support my position will rub off on you.

You continually divert providing proof to back your theories which proves that you can't.


Mike,

prions that "appear to be the same" do not make them the same. That is still "theory", "speculation", and "opinion", NOT FACT!


~SH~
 
prions that "appear to be the same" do not make them the same. That is still "theory", "speculation", and "opinion", NOT FACT!
Click to expand...

I never said "appear to be the same". Those are your words.

You will not find a researcher that says that BSE "IS NOT" the causative agent of vCJD.

That, my friend, IS a fact!
 
Come on Mike. Lots of researchers do not agree that BSE is the causative agent of vCJD. Or have you decided that you are the only person who decides who a researcher is.

Similar, even identical under a powerful microscope, still does not prove any species jump.
:roll:
 
rkaiser said:
Come on Mike. Lots of researchers do not agree that BSE is the causative agent of vCJD. Or have you decided that you are the only person who decides who a researcher is.

Similar, even identical under a powerful microscope, still does not prove any species jump.
:roll:
Click to expand...

Name one mainstream BSE researcher who says it "IS NOT" the causative agent.
 
I want "SH" to answer this one, as I am sure he will anyway. It is a proven FACT that PrPsc (The Infectious Prion) has been identified in urine, both human and ungulate. Since that is absolutely indisputable, we must consider the following to be just as factual:

Urine is derived from the filtration of the blood in both humans and ungulates. Since the blood carries nutrient to all living cells within the body and enables the living system to function through the complex matrix that it delivers THROUGHOUT the body, we can safely state that the blood system is completely encompassing the entire body. That is simply put, the manner in which the body is vitalized and nourished.

The blood carries an infinite number of proteins, saturated fats, and other "stuff." It also carries normal prions (PrP). Urine taken from human patients at the United States National Prion Surveillance Center in Cleveland, Ohio, have positively shown that the patients also secrete prions in their urine, as we ll do on a daily basis.

So "SH," please answer this: Why is it that we find both normal and abnormal prions in urine samples taken from living donors, both humans and ungulates which is indicative of the prions having travelled throughout the body? You state that there is no evidence anywhere of meat being contaminated, yet you refuse to see the truth when it is blatantly obvious. If the prion is carried by the blood, it is filtered by the kidneys and shows up in the urine, we know it has literally travelled throughout the entire body, through the meat, through the liver, through the brain and the entire susyem. Tell me all the scientists are wrong and that you are the only knowledgeable one - period. So please, get your science right before you continue to bury your head in the sand. Ron.
 

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