Does the Feed Ban Really Work?

[Mike]

Come on Mike. Lots of researchers do not agree that BSE is the causative agent of vCJD. Or have you decided that you are the only person who decides who a researcher is.

Similar, even identical under a powerful microscope, still does not prove any species jump.
:roll:

A team of scientists working on the link between Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE or "Mad Cow Disease") and the degenerative brain condition found in humans, (new) variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (nvCJD or vCJD), have made a significant breakthrough. The research, which has been carried out by doctors in Scotland and the US, found that the infectious agents, or prions, that cause both BSE and vCJD produced exactly the same disease characteristics when injected into laboratory mice.

One of the researchers behind the study, Professor Stephen DeArmond from the University of California, San Francisco, said, "taken together with other evidence, the link is now indisputable".

The scientists, led by Michael Scott from the University of California and Robert Will at the British government's CJD Surveillance Unit in Edinburgh, found that when diseased human brain tissue was injected into mice, the results were identical to those produced by the injection of BSE-infected bovine material. In both instances there was no apparent sign of a "species barrier" preventing the disease passing from cattle to humans. The incubation period was the same—250 days—and the pattern of brain damage was identical.

The results, reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggest that BSE and vCJD are interchangeable. The scientists injected transgenic mice, whose own genetic makeup had been altered, with infectious material from cattle and humans. "That human nvCJD prions so precisely duplicate the properties of native bovine BSE prions in their behaviour on transmission into ... transgenic mice creates a compelling argument for an etiological [causal] link between BSE and nvCJD.

 

[PORKER]

Well SH ,Which end of the BOAT are you IN?????????????

 

[Anonymous]

Ron: "Tell me all the scientists are wrong and that you are the only knowledgeable one - period. So please, get your science right before you continue to bury your head in the sand."

Ron, you crack me up!

First off, if I am not qualified to answer your question and you know that and that's exactly why you present your theories to non researchers instead of someone who is qualified to debate the issue with you.

I am not a BSE researcher. I can't prove your theory incorrect which makes you assume you are correct.

Seems to me if you were so confident in your theories you would present them to USDA's researchers and prove them wrong but no, your comfort zone is to ask a non researcher your questions and find fellow USDA conspiracy theorists as your support group.

Second, you say, "tell me all the scientists are wrong". You don't have all the scientists supporting your theories and you know that so why would you try to gather up this false security blanket of support that you don't even have. Scientists might agree that prions travel through the body but that doesn't prove people are dying from contaminated beef and it sure doesn't justify your test.

Your theory on prions traveling through the body seems plausible but if those prions traveling through the body could lead to BSE, and you are convinced that those animals are out there, WHERE ARE THEY? WHY ISN'T ANYONE DYING FROM THE BEEF? WHY AREN'T COWS SHAKING AND FALLING OVER IN THE PASTURES? There is no evidence of taking your theory to it's final end.

I ask you again, where is your proof positive that humans can contract vCJD from eating beef?

You divert that question and throw up another theory (theory to me / fact to you) of infectious prions traveling through the body that appears to lead to the conclusion of contaminated beef. YET YOU HAVE NO POSITIVE PROOF OF CONTAMINATED BEEF.

Perhaps prions traveling through the body is fact, that doesn't mean anyone is dying from eating the beef to justify your test.

"Well, well if someone is feeding contaminated feed illegally then that feed could contain BSE prions and if those cattle injested those prions they could become infected and if those infected cattle were missed in the surveilance testing then they could potentially enter the food chain if they weren't showing outward symptoms of the disease and if it's a fact that the BSE prion travels the same way that other infectious prions travel then meat from those animals could be contaminated and if people eat this contaminated beef they might contract vCJD and if they contract vCJD from eating this beef then they might die and if they die from eating beef USDA and the OIE researchers will be wrong and I can sell my test."

That's about 15 "ifs", "mights", and "coulds" and you are still at the traveling prion stage.

Why haven't you taken on USDA's researchers if you can prove your theories correct and their researchers wrong?

Rather, you find more comfort in presenting your theories to non researchers like me to gather an uninformed support group.

That only makes you that much more suspicious to me.

As I said, USDA is held accountable to the public while you are not.


Mike,

Wouldn't you want to hear this "undisputed" link debated against USDA's researchers to form an objective opinion on the topic?

He said what you wanted to hear therefore you consider it fact. That is a tactic that conspiracy theorists everywhere have turned into a science.

Once again, let's look at the obvious here. On one hand you have a BSE researcher conducting prion research on lab mice. On the other hand, you have USDA researchers that are accountable to the public and responsible for the safety of the food in the U.S. Read that as responsible for human lives.

WHO'S STAKES ARE HIGHER FOR BEING WRONG?????

That's what I call "common sense" Mike.

It just kills you USDA conspiracy theorists that everyone doesn't follow you like mindless lemmings.


Reader, let's assume that it is a fact that bse prions travel in blood. How do you jump from that to meat contamination and from meat contamination to human death without proof? You don't!

Assuming that prions traveling in blood is fact, that does not make death from infected beef a fact.

There's a lot of road in front of you but I am glad you three have eachother to talk to along the way. If it helps, I'll grant you permission to cuss me. LOL!



~SH~

 

[Anonymous]

Oh yeh, and don't you three forget to take Porker along on your journey. When you get tired of discussing your BSE theories and cussing me, you can listen to Scoring Sytem promo ads.


~SH~

 

[rkaiser]

Mike wrote

All that crap about injecting mice.

Gonna have to find a lot more than that to convince me Mike. Injection certainly does not consistute injestion. And could well be further proof of metal contamination being the root of this thing if you really think about it. What are you injecting - so called infected material, or, an overdose of rouge metals?

 

[Mike]

Mike wrote

All that crap about injecting mice.

Gonna have to find a lot more than that to convince me Mike. Injection certainly does not consistute injestion. And could well be further proof of metal contamination being the root of this thing if you really think about it. What are you injecting - so called infected material, or, an overdose of rouge metals?

Are you people really so naive to think that mice have not been the experimental subjects for basically all of modern science's miracles?

If Prions and the BSE-vCJD connection were not fact, WE WOULD NOT BE JUMPING THROUGH ALL THESE HOOPS TODAY! SHEEEEEEEEEEESH!

 

[rkaiser]

Careful with the word naive Mike, childish simlpetons follow. My point was very clear and common sense, like most claims people like myself make.

I don't argue that mice are useful. Use them to prove injestion if you are such a brilliant scientist. In fact use them to prove anything. Your story, like everything you and reader post, is based on theory just as OURS.

Of course more people are convinced on you side, it is the only side broadcast. It is the only story that saves the ash of Governments and mutinational industry all over the world.

Think about it yourself before calling me naive. Don't just follow the mice when Peter starts blowing his flute.

 

[Mike]

Careful with the word naive Mike, childish simlpetons follow. My point was very clear and common sense, like most claims people like myself make.

I don't argue that mice are useful. Use them to prove injestion if you are such a brilliant scientist. In fact use them to prove anything. Your story, like everything you and reader post, is based on theory just as OURS.

Of course more people are convinced on you side, it is the only side broadcast. It is the only story that saves the ash of Governments and mutinational industry all over the world.

Think about it yourself before calling me naive. Don't just follow the mice when Peter starts blowing his flute.

I chose the word "naive" carefully. In my dictionary it means "lack of understanding", like my wife , not derogatory. If offended, you have my apologies.

The BSE INQUIRY clearly states that calves were orally challenged with brain matter of positive animals at the rates of: .01g, 1g, 10g, and 100 g.
All animals were found positive later except the .01g dose.

P.S. I'm hardly a scientist. But I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express!
:wink: :roll:

 

[bse-tester]

This is for information and discussion purposes only, and certainly not provided here as a means to sell any damn thing!!

In July 1988, the feed ban on the use of ruminant-derived protein in ruminant foodstuff was introduced. However, the occurence of cases in animals born after July 18, 1998 did not surprise Ministry of Fisheries and Food (MAFF) officials. Maff had originally suggested that the number of cases would decline after a ban on the inclusion of "animal protein" in livestock feed and that the disease would die out as a result of the ban, by the end of 1992 presumably when all the cattle born before the food ban had died.

Over the years, an ever increasing number of cows born after the ban and showing clinical symptoms of BSE were found histopathologically "BSE Negative." Based on the assessment of a case-control study, MAFF continued to classify all cases of BSE in cattle born after the feed ban as "Horizontally-Acquired Infections." Farmers however, typically ordered their feedstock for no more than six weeks in advance and since calves were not fed with MBM until they were four to six weeks old, there should have been no MBM on most farms.

The ban on contaminated food which should have stopped this mode of infection throughout the British cattle herd, began in July 1988. However, as of May 1996, almost eight years after the ban, there have been over 29,000 confirmed cases of BSE in cattle born after the feed ban. In herds where suplimentary feed had been given, the number of cases varies according to season and is highest during the winter months.

It is commonly accepted that the disease in cattle originated from contaminated feed containing the infectious scrapie agent and from other BSE infected cattle. It seems therefore, that there must be a different mode of infection in animals born after the feed ban. Moreover, a large population of BSE confirmed calves were born in 1989, 1990 and 1991. Although all of this infromation was avaliable, MAFF still took the position that there was no transference of the disease from tissues such as placenta and the ever-present excrements.

Something that I have not seen discussed here is the fact that in Britain, it was common practice to feed ruminant protein to chickens, pigs and also to fish. MAff originally argued that poultry was not at risk because of the huge zoological divide between cattle and poultry. Because of the long incubation periods of the BSE agent, the BSE agent may not get established in the bird's brain. It is also a fact that the BSE agent can survive extremely harsh conditions and it is therefore likely that poultry, upon eating the MBM, would ingest the BSE agent and that it, the BSE agent will be present in concentrated form in the bird's droppings. Bird droppings from poultry farms were/are mixed into some feed compounds for cattle feed. (Avian Flu transmission??) Poultry manure is also used on organic farms where cattle graze. This has been an unknown and potentially indirect route of recycling of the infection of cattle with the BSE agent producing the disease on some organic farms.

The discussion on how and what causes BSE in cattle will undoubtedly rage on for years, but the science is there for all to see, unfortunately, it will never been seen by those who choose to keep their eyes and their minds closed.
Ron.

 

[Mike]

Question Ron. Is it legal in Canada for a private company to obtain "BSE Test Kits" in Canada?
I have not heard of any small packers up there attempting to test for export markets as they have here.

I am sure you have heard of the debacle involving the USDA denying private testing.

 

[bse-tester]

Is it legal in Canada for a private company to obtain "BSE Test Kits" in Canada?
I have not heard of any small packers up there attempting to test for export markets as they have here.

Mike, it is perfectly legal here for any company to own, develop and market a BSE Test Kit, as it is for corporations in Europe, eg, Prionics, in Switzerland. As for the USDA, I can say that they actually called me this morning for my mailing address. We will watch our mail-box to see what comes, if anything. Having said that, the CFIA will want to see it sanctioned by the EU and the OIE in Paris. As you know, we have already investigated the EU and they advised us to validate here in Canada and/or the USA. We are hoping to engage the CFIA and the USDA in simultaneous validations alongwith a group in England and also in Germany.

The question of what packers may wish to test?

We have a number of groups up here that feel that the whole question of testing each and every animal is fundamental to the entire marketing question. To be able to ensure that all of the meat and meat by-products are free of PrPsc is actually something that is being seriously considered by some here. One that I have been working closely with is "The Peace Country Tender Beef Co-op," here in Northern Alberta. This group is made up of a number of ranchers, over 700 ranchers actually, and the membership is committed to having not only BSE free animals but also hormone free animals. The entire concept here is to have as safe a product as possible and they tell me that the interest in their product is growing daily. Enquiries come at them from Europe, The Middle East, China and of course, North America. They intend to test every animal that enters their slaughterhouse. So Mike, yes, it is a fact up here that we can privately test, and we are still hoping to see the CFIA get involved in validation of our test as the National Prion Surveillance Center in the USA will. We are in touch with the CFIA at this time with a view toward achieving that goal. Of course, we hope to have them come aboard as that will solidify our position which is one that can only abide by the rules. We wish to follow the EU protocol and testing regimine completely and to the letter.

Yes, I am well aware of the USDA not allowing any private testing in the USA. I have a group in Montana that wishes to take our test and market it throughout the US. But they are small and I feel not able to take it on effectively, so I am looking Mike, for a group who is capable of taking it on at the National level. Know anyone??

Ron.

 

[rkaiser]

bse tester says

The discussion on how and what causes BSE in cattle will undoubtedly rage on for years, but the science is there for all to see, unfortunately, it will never been seen by those who choose to keep their eyes and their minds closed.

I couldn't have said it better myself bse tester. I hope we all keep our minds open to ALL the science, and not simply follow the feed transmission theory or even the infectious theory til hell freezes over.

 

[cowsense]

Question Ron. Is it legal in Canada for a private company to obtain "BSE Test Kits" in Canada?
I have not heard of any small packers up there attempting to test for export markets as they have here.

I am sure you have heard of the debacle involving the USDA denying private testing.

Mike; try a simple exercise tomorrow....perhaps Sandhusker can help you.Take a quick survey of insurance companies that provide liability insurance to animal diagnostic labs......request coverage for testing procedures covering Avian Flu, Hoof and Mouth disease or BSE and see what the answer is! No business plan can succeed or receive financing without liability insurance in today's business climate!

 

[PORKER]

Great ,How can I get my herd tested ?If testing is not allowed here in US ,maybe I could truck my cattle across the border an back for BSE tests. I like this QUOTE:
This group is made up of a number of ranchers, over 700 ranchers actually, and the membership is committed to having not only BSE free animals but also hormone free animals. The entire concept here is to have as safe a product as possible and they tell me that the interest in their product is growing daily. Enquiries come at them from Europe, The Middle East, China and of course, North America. They intend to test every animal that enters their slaughterhouse. So Mike, yes, it is a fact up here that we can privately test, and we are still hoping to see the CFIA get involved in validation of our test as the National Prion Surveillance Center in the USA will. We are in touch with the CFIA at this time with a view toward achieving that goal. Of course, we hope to have them come aboard as that will solidify our position which is one that can only abide by the rules. We wish to follow the EU protocol and testing regimine completely and to the letter.

 

[rkaiser]

Trend setter alright ???

You wonder why some of us cut loose on you reader. Think about what you just posted.

They work out, they worry about their health, they shop at Whole Foods Market, some eat vegetarian or vegan, and so on. Europe similarly is very food safety conscious and not as easily appeased as the American consumer has been.

What the hell is healthy about being a vegatarian?

 

[rkaiser]

I agree with all of that reader, but it did sound to me that vegan's were healthier folks in your first post. That is simply not true. Grass fed - - maybe if you can choke it down. I like to talk moderation, but agree with fashioning our product for future trends.

Listened to a talk on unsaturated fats in grass fed that could actually save lives. Hey if it works to sell some product for some grass feeding cow guy, go for it.

 

[mrj]

Trend setter alright ???

You wonder why some of us cut loose on you reader. Think about what you just posted.

They work out, they worry about their health, they shop at Whole Foods Market, some eat vegetarian or vegan, and so on. Europe similarly is very food safety conscious and not as easily appeased as the American consumer has been.

What the hell is healthy about being a vegatarian?

Randy - you missed my point as I often miss your points. You have been open-minded about testing because the economics demand it. My point is not to promote vegetarianism but to point out as others have that attention to food and willingness to pay for specialty food is a trend. That means tested / organic / grass-fed beef potentially. My point is that YOUNG people on the Coasts and in Europe are health conscious and that this is a market that can be anticipated as growing and can be a boon to ranchers versus a threat.

Personally I think the NCBA and others have taken the wrong tack on promoting beef. In spite of what you all think, the rest of the country doesn't eat beef the way Texans or ranchers do. You need to concentrate on health consciousness -- sell tested / lean / grass-fed and even probably hormone free to this growing market instead of trying to get people to eat 16 oz steaks twice a day.

{reader2, what makes you think that NCBA has been promoting "16oz. steaks" (or even that Texans or ranchers routinely eat them? I challenge you to show us even ONE instance of NCBA advertising that says to eat more than the recommended five to seven ounces PER DAY of PROTEIN, let alone steak! NCBA consumer education promotes moderation and variety. Have you ever seen anything with the checkoff logo advising to eat beef every day? MRJ}

Not happening. I listen to the eat steak ads and laugh. I can afford it and I'm not having steaks multiple times / week. Others either won't eat that much because of price or health concerns. But I would eat beef every night in a different form in moderate amounts but I now have an awareness of BSE and hormones. I'd prefer mine grass-fed and tested, thank you.

{ I surely do hope young people are willing to study nutrition and learn some FACTS on which to base their choices. I know some will and some will make choices on perceptions about BSE, hormones, calories and nutrients in beef. They may deny themselves the low calorie, nutrient dense beef that outshines the favored "white" meats dramatically on nutrients per serving and calories versus nutrients based not on fact, but on the perceived BELIEF that they are eating more sensibly. MRJ}

 

[HAY MAKER]

Great ,How can I get my herd tested ?If testing is not allowed here in US ,maybe I could truck my cattle across the border an back for BSE tests. I like this QUOTE:
This group is made up of a number of ranchers, over 700 ranchers actually, and the membership is committed to having not only BSE free animals but also hormone free animals. The entire concept here is to have as safe a product as possible and they tell me that the interest in their product is growing daily. Enquiries come at them from Europe, The Middle East, China and of course, North America. They intend to test every animal that enters their slaughterhouse. So Mike, yes, it is a fact up here that we can privately test, and we are still hoping to see the CFIA get involved in validation of our test as the National Prion Surveillance Center in the USA will. We are in touch with the CFIA at this time with a view toward achieving that goal. Of course, we hope to have them come aboard as that will solidify our position which is one that can only abide by the rules. We wish to follow the EU protocol and testing regimine completely and to the letter.

The young people, California, and Europe are ahead of many of us. I have had "normal" young people over at my house talking about organic food and health. They work out, they worry about their health, they shop at Whole Foods Market, some eat vegetarian or vegan, and so on. Europe similarly is very food safety conscious and not as easily appeased as the American consumer has been. Germany especially but since BSE, probably all Western Europe. I saw a large increase in health food types of offerings in the pubs in the British countryside this last fall.

My son's small college town serves organic beef by the way and is full of vegan coops.

I have been saying this forever but this is the best case for leaning forward and anticipating a major change in consumer behaviors that I have seen in a long time. I believe that the types of groups that bse-tester is describing will become more commonplace. There is a new upsurge of organic beef in Northern California - they may be wackos folks but they generally are the trendsetters... I'm from there, wouldn't you know.

reader,when you say you are from there...........there would'nt be "Berkely" would it?.............good luck

 

[HAY MAKER]

OK,But I dont see how it could be stranger than "Berkely"I was out there at a seminar many years ago,thought I had seen every thing till I spent a week in "Berkely"..............good luck

 

[Bro]

I

like to talk moderation, but agree with fashioning our product for future trends.

Listened to a talk on unsaturated fats in grass fed that could actually save lives. Hey if it works to sell some product for some grass feeding cow guy, go for it.

I agree with keeping up with trends. People are getting told that grass fed is so good for them due to the higher prevelence of OMEGA 3 in the meat. I figure if the finishing feedlots just fed 3-4 lbs?? of canola meal/oil you should get the same "healthy meat". Does any one know if this would be true, or has any test studies been done on this? If true you definitely would have a better product (tender and tastier than grass fed). With the number of granola's and other assorted whackos in our society with too much free time/ nothing better to worry about this could be an opportunity in the future.