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Ethanol corn gluten recipe.

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Sir Loin

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Ethanol corn gluten recipe.
TexasBred said:

“if it's .73% consistently all you have to do is make sure that enough hay is fed to the cattle to dilute this amount down to .4% or lower.”
And I say:
OK, I select “lower“.
The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S.
So lets use .15 % instead of your .4%, just in case there is some S in their water and/or hay.
How many pounds of .73% of corn gluten would you add to 1,000 lbs of hay to bring the S down to .15%?

A. 100 lbs
B. 200 lbs
C. 500 lbs
D. other
 

TexasBred

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Sir Loin said:
Ethanol corn gluten recipe.
TexasBred said:

“if it's .73% consistently all you have to do is make sure that enough hay is fed to the cattle to dilute this amount down to .4% or lower.”
And I say:
OK, I select “lower“.
The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S.
So lets use .15 % instead of your .4%, just in case there is some S in their water and/or hay.
How many pounds of .73% of corn gluten would you add to 1,000 lbs of hay to bring the S down to .15%?
A. 100 lbs
B. 200 lbs
C. 500 lbs
D. other

Oh I wouldn't add any...hay has no sulfur.
 

hypocritexposer

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anybody that uses "alternative feeds" should be on top of testing for nutrient content, if not, and they run into a problem, it's on them, NO?

""feed and by-products" cannot be guaranteed for nutrient content"


aren't many foodstuffs sold as "within a range"? Is protein content always a definite %?
 

LazyWP

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Sir Lion, I don't get you. If you are soooo concerned about feeding corn by products, why do it. You are an intelligent man, so you say. Wouldn't it just make more sense to just feed something else?
 

Soapweed

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LazyWP said:
Sir Lion, I don't get you. If you are soooo concerned about feeding corn by products, why do it. You are an intelligent man, so you say. Wouldn't it just make more sense to just feed something else?

I tried DDG cake one year and didn't like it. It tended to clog up the cake bin, and the cubes didn't hold together. Consequently I have gone back to feeding just regular old time tested normal type cake.
 

TexasBred

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hypocritexposer said:
anybody that uses "alternative feeds" should be on top of testing for nutrient content, if not, and they run into a problem, it's on them, NO?

""feed and by-products" cannot be guaranteed for nutrient content"


aren't many foodstuffs sold as "within a range"? Is protein content always a definite %?

Absolutely....even corn will vary as much as 2% in crude protein alone. We use NRC (National Research Council) Standards when using by-products as well as various protein sources in formulating feeds or balancing rations. A load of product can be tested many times with no two test yielding exact same results....Higher protein products can vary as much as 8% in protein alone so we rely on an accepted "standard".
 

TexasBred

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LazyWP said:
Sir Lion, I don't get you. If you are soooo concerned about feeding corn by products, why do it. You are an intelligent man, so you say. Wouldn't it just make more sense to just feed something else?

These type folks don't do this when they have an agenda.
 

Sir Loin

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Nice try people but changing the subject to nutrition again will not work, as I already conceded to it’s nutritional value, so stop
icon_beatdeadhorse.gif

The question you were suppose to answer was about the toxicity of corn gluten.
More specifically, how to mix/use it as TexasBred suggested.!


As JFK once said: I may not know all the answers, but I do know who does.
With that in mind I took this problem over to my friend Sean on another board.
Here is how he calculated it for me.

Assuming the hay contains no S, 1000 pounds of hay must dilute the corn gluten's S by 0.73/0.15 = 4.8667 times.
So, if amount of gluten is X,
(X + 1000)/X = 4.8667 or X + 1000 = 4.8667X
Collecting X gives
4.8667X - X = 1000, which simplifies to 3.8667X = 1000
so
X = 1000/3.8667 = 258.6 pounds of gluten for 1000 pounds of hay.
Seán

The Correct answer is: D. other
Now that’s certainly simple enough. Why any dumb farmer should be able to figure that out! Right???
I didn’t even come close to Sean’s answer using SWAG!
Were you able to come up with 258.6 lbs ?????
How about you TexasBred, is that what you got??

Any one want to take a shot at the % of corn gluten in the total mix?
Or do I have to go back and ask Sean ?

SL
 

VB RANCH

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i mix 1/2 dry distillers grain and 1/2 cracked corn, is that bad?, i know a feller or 2 that feed straight distillers grain
 

Sir Loin

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VB,
Re:
i mix 1/2 dry distillers grain and 1/2 cracked corn, is that bad?,
It very well could be depending on where it is coming from and if they use sulfur in their distillation process.
Call your supplier and ask for an analysis sheet and check the sulfur content.
If they don’t supply you with one I would stop using it.
To me the little savings is not worth the risk.

I am now using Jack Denial’s distillers grain which has no sulfur used in it’s distillation process.

SL
 

TexasBred

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Sir Loin said:
VB,
Re:
i mix 1/2 dry distillers grain and 1/2 cracked corn, is that bad?,
It very well could be depending on where it is coming from and if they use sulfur in their distillation process.
Call your supplier and ask for an analysis sheet and check the sulfur content.
If they don’t supply you with one I would stop using it.
To me the little savings is not worth the risk.

I am now using Jack Denial’s distillers grain which has no sulfur used in it’s distillation process.

SL

Good for you....better check tho. They use to make sure they had SULFUR WATER at the distillery. Makes better whiskey :wink:
 

Silver

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Sir Loin said:
I am now using Jack Denial’s distillers grain which has no sulfur used in it’s distillation process.

SL

I think they must just pour the sulfur directly into the finished product by the taste of it :?
 

TexasBred

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Sir Loin said:
Nice try people but changing the subject to nutrition again will not work, as I already conceded to it’s nutritional value, so stop
icon_beatdeadhorse.gif

The question you were suppose to answer was about the toxicity of corn gluten.
More specifically, how to mix/use it as TexasBred suggested.!


As JFK once said: I may not know all the answers, but I do know who does.
With that in mind I took this problem over to my friend Sean on another board.
Here is how he calculated it for me.

Assuming the hay contains no S, 1000 pounds of hay must dilute the corn gluten's S by 0.73/0.15 = 4.8667 times.
So, if amount of gluten is X,
(X + 1000)/X = 4.8667 or X + 1000 = 4.8667X
Collecting X gives
4.8667X - X = 1000, which simplifies to 3.8667X = 1000
so
X = 1000/3.8667 = 258.6 pounds of gluten for 1000 pounds of hay.
Seán

The Correct answer is: D. other
Now that’s certainly simple enough. Why any dumb farmer should be able to figure that out! Right???
I didn’t even come close to Sean’s answer using SWAG!
Were you able to come up with 258.6 lbs ?????
How about you TexasBred, is that what you got??

Any one want to take a shot at the % of corn gluten in the total mix?
Or do I have to go back and ask Sean ?

SL

Sean is close...Correct Answer is : 258.621557667.....the total mix would be 20.547999999% corn gluten feed.
 

Sir Loin

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OK, so far so good.
Now: using 20% corn gluten with grass hay @ 8% protein:
What is the total protein value of this mix?

Please quote your source of CG protein.. URL please.
SL
 

TexasBred

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Sir Loin said:
OK, so far so good.
Now: using 20% corn gluten with grass hay @ 8% protein:
What is the total protein value of this mix?

Please quote your source of CG protein.. URL please.
SL
Crude protein of the mix is now 11.16% .... Sulfur is now .146%

Corn Gluten Feed for Beef Cattle1
Bob Myer and Matt Hersom2

Corn gluten feed (CGF) is a co-product from the wet-corn milling industry that manufactures starch, sweeteners, syrup, and oil from corn (Weigel et al). Corn gluten feed is readily available in the southeastern USA and its price has been favorable when compared to other feeds. Corn gluten feed is a good feed for beef cattle; however, producers should be aware of some potential problems with this feedstuff.

Utilizing Corn Gluten Feed
Corn gluten feed is mainly composed of corn bran and steep liquor, with the amount of steep liquor inclusion affecting the final color and nutritive quality. Corn gluten feed is available either in a dry or wet form. Dry CGF is the most common form available in the deep southeast, and can be purchased as a meal or pellets. Since the starch and oil are removed, CGF is relatively high in crude protein. Crude protein averages 23.5% (dry matter (DM) basis) but can range from 16 to 30% (Dairy One Laboratory).

The energy valve of CGF is good, almost as high as corn. The total digestible nutrients (TDN) value of CGF is about 75 to 83%, compared to whole corn grain which has a TDN value of 88%. However, the form of energy in CGF is different from corn. Most of the energy in corn is from starch, whereas in CGF the energy comes from digestible fiber (bran fraction). Corn gluten feed is an excellent compliment to forage based diets because it is a low starch, high fiber energy source. Additionally, CGF does contain some fat that will increase the energy density of the diet. The composition of CGF is presented in Table 1.

Since CGF is a good source of both protein and energy, the relative economic value of this feed depends upon the relative price of corn and of a protein supplement such as soybean meal. The protein and energy provided by 100 lbs of CGF (90% DM) is roughly equal to 75 lbs of corn and 25 lbs of soybean meal (48% CP). The CGF product is a good source of degradable intake protein. Approximately 50% of the crude protein of CGF is soluble with 70-75% of the protein being ruminally degradable.

Considerations for Use
A few cautions about feeding CGF. First, the sulfur (S) concentration of CGF is high relative to the animal's requirement. Sulfur dioxide is added during the wet milling process to aid in the extraction of starch. The added S ends up in the steep liquor which is one of the components of CGF. The sulfur concentration in CGF averages around 0.5% (DM basis), with a range of 0.33 to 0.73%. The S requirement for beef cattle is 0.15 to 0.2% total dietary S. The upper safe limit is 0.4% total dietary S (NRC, 2005). Feeding large amounts of CGF with a high S concentration can lead to S toxicity, resulting in reduced feed intake and possibly death. A specific disorder associated with excess S is polioencephalomalacia (PEM or commonly referred to as “brainers”; Niles et al., 2000). This disorder affects the nervous system resulting in blindness, incoordination, and seizures (Gould, 1998). Excess S in the diet can also increase the risk of a copper deficiency. Copper is an essential trace mineral important for growth, immunity, and other metabolic functions (NRC, 2005). The potential risk of high S in the total diet could limit the amount of CGF than can be used in a feeding program.

Another caution is the high phosphorus (P) concentration. Phosphorus is an essential nutrient, however, the concentration in CGF (0.9 to 1.1%) far exceeds requirement (0.25 to 0.35%; DM basis). Dietary P excess has been associated with the formation of urinary calculi (“waterbelly”) in cattle. The problem of excess P can be minimized by insuring adequate intake of calcium (Ca). Excess P concentration along with a low Ca concentration would worsen the detrimental effect(s) of excess P. High P intake can also result in high P excretion by the animal resulting in high P concentrations in the urine and manure.

Finally, be aware that the nutrient content of CGF is quite variable. As mentioned above, crude protein, the protein's degradability, and mineral content of CGF can vary widely. Thus, it would be desirable to have CGF analyzed, especially if large amounts are used. The color of CGF should be yellow to tan. Dark coloring along with a “burned” smell would indicate “scorching”. Scorching can have a negative effect on nutritive value, particularly the protein availability and digestibility.

Feeding Guidelines
Because of the risk of high S intake, CGF should be limited to 50% or less of the total dry matter intake. For example, a 600 lb calf should receive no more than 6 lbs per day, or a mature beef cow, 12 lbs per day. It should be pointed out that many nutritionists recommend even lower limits (i.e., 0.5% of body weight per day which in the above examples would be 3 lbs and 6 lbs per day). An effective practice is to blend CGF with another feed such as soybean hulls. In fact, a 50:50 blend of CGF and soyhulls is a good feed for a backgrounding program. Because of the high P concentration in CGF, ensure an acceptable total dietary Ca:p by providing adequate supplemental Ca either as part of the mixed ration or included as a component of a free choice salt-mineral mix. The final consideration is that CGF, like corn itself, is low in the amino acid lysine. If dietary lysine concentration is a concern, amino acid evaluation and amino acid supplementation could be considered.

In all, CGF is a good feed for beef cattle. However, be aware of potential problems with the feed, especially when fed at a high level.

References and Further Reading
Dairy One laboratory analyses results library accumulated data 5/21/2000 – 4/30/2007. www.dairyone.com Accessed Feb. 25, 2008

Gould, D. H. 1998. Polioencephalomalacia. J. Anim. Sci. 76:309-314.

Niles, G.A., S. Morgan, W.C. Edwards, and D.L. Lelman. 2000. Effects of increasing dietary sulfur concentration on the incidence and pathology of polioencephalomalicia in weaned beef calves. Anim. Sci. Res. Rpt., Dept. of Animal Science, Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, OK. Pp 55-60. http://westnilevirus.okstate.edu/research/2000rr/11.htm.

NRC. 2005. Mineral tolerance of domestic animals. National Research Council, Natl Academy of Sciences, Natl Academy Press, Washington DC. Pp 134-153.

NRC. 2000. Nutrient Requirements of Beef Cattle 7th ed (2000 update). Natl Academy Press, Washington DC. Pp 136-137.

Weigel, J.C., D. Loy, and L. Kilmer. Feed co-products of the corn wet milling process. Natl Corn Growers Assoc., St. Louis, MO. 21 pg. ([email protected])

EDIS publications:

Plant Protein By-product Feedstuffs for Dairy Cattle (edis.ifas.ufl.edu/DS075),

Florida Cow-Calf Management, 2nd Edition -- Maintaining a Healthy Herd (edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN120),

Total Protein Requirement of Beef Cattle II: Feeding By-product Feedstuffs (edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN168), and

Average Nutrient Content and Bulk Price of Byproduct Feeds Commonly Available to Florida Cattle Producers (edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN142).

Tables
Table 1. Typical nutrient composition of corn gluten feed, a co-product of corn wet milling process.a
Dairy Oneb


Item

Average a

Range

NRC 2000c


Dry matter, %
89.0
85.6 – 92.5
90

Crude protein, %
23.6
16.6 – 30.6
23.8

Crude fat, %
3.9
2.1 – 5.6
3.9

Crude fiber, %
8.0
5.9 – 10.1
7.5

NDFd, %
35.9
29.2 – 42.6
36.2

ADFe, %
11.1
8.3 – 13.9
12.7

TDNf, %
73.1
70.2 – 76.0
80

NEgg, mcal/lb
0.49
0.46 – 0.54
0.59

NEmh, mcal/lb
0.78
0.73 – 0.83
0.88

Phosphorus, %
1.07
0.83 – 1.32
0.95

Potassium, %
1.50
1.09 – 1.91
1.4

Calcium, %
0.14
0.00 – 0.36
0.07

Magnesium, %
0.42
0.32 – 0.53
0.4

Sodium, %
0.29
0.02 – 0.55
0.25

Sulfur, %
0.53
0.33 – 0.73
0.47

Copper, ppm
6.6
0.0 – 23.7
7.0

aDry matter (moisture free) basis.

bDairy One Forage Laboratory accumulated data 5/21/200 – 4/30/2007 accessed Feb. 25, 2008.(Please note that energy value given (TDN and NE) tend to be lower, about 10% lower, than from other labs).

cNational Research Council.dNeural detergent fiber.

eAcid detergent fiber.

fTotal digestible nutrients.

gNet energy for gain.

hNet energy for maintenance.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an201
 

Sir Loin

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TB,
Very good, I’m impressed!

Re:
Crude protein of the mix is now 11.16% .... Sulfur is now .146%
Now that’s a mix I could live with. Crude protein is close to 12% that I sometimes want to feed and the sulfur content is within safe limits.

But there are also times when I want to feed a 16% Crude protein and have the sulfur content remain constant at .146%.
I have both dry ground corn and wheat midds available to me locally.
Can you give me the formula to mix a 16% Crude protein mix, or as close to it as you can using these 4 ingredients.
What would the % of each ingredient be?
Corn gluten --------20% 258 lbs
Equals Crude protein 11.16% .... Sulfur .146%
Hay @ 8% -------- 80% 1,000 lbs

Ground corn -----
Or
Wheat midds.-----

SL
 

TexasBred

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Not a feasible scenario SL. The only ingredient you have in the mix in excess of 16% is the CGF and if you used it at a rate to arrive at a 16% crude protein in the mix your sulfur content would exceed your desired label.
 

Sir Loin

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TB, thanks, that’s what I thought.

The only other ingredient I have available locally is whole cottonseed @ $400 per ton.
Protein is 26 %.
Can you reach 16% protein per total mix with that?
SL
 

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