• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Formula focus of quarrel

Tommy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
755
Location
South East Kansas
Formula focus of quarrel

Packers' attorneys claim producers' calculations about prices too simplistic

By Scott Waltman

American News Writer

Whether the price of boxed beef largely dictates what meat packers will pay for live cattle is a heavily disputed point in a federal court case in Aberdeen.

Three cattlemen who believe boxed beef is the primary factor in what packers will give them for their animals have sued the nation's four largest packers. They claim the companies knowingly used erroneous U.S. Department of Agriculture information to pay less for live cattle in spring 2001.

The trial started Friday at the federal courthouse. The first witnesses were called Monday.

Two of the cattlemen plaintiffs - Michael Callicrate of St. Francis, Kan., and Roger Koch of Omaha, Neb. - testified that there's a formula that producers commonly use to know what they should get for their live cattle. It's accepted, they said, that a cattle's dressed carcass - the part sold for meat - is 63 percent of the animal's live weight, on average. What remains after that is the hide, innards, bones and whatnot. They said that what they get for their cattle should be the dressed weight times the boxed beef price reported by the USDA.

How it works: Using that formula, if a head of live cattle weighed 1,000 pounds and the price of boxed beef was reported at $1 a pound, a farmer or rancher should be able to fetch $630 per animal - a dollar per boxed beef pound.

Callicrate and Koch said that they weren't getting enough for their animals between April 2 and May 11, 2001, because the packers took advantage of USDA reports that listed boxed beef prices as too low. The mistake was the result of a computer program including lower quality meat in the boxed beef averages for better cuts. That it occurred is not in dispute, but what impact it had is.

Attorneys for the packers said the 63 percent formula is too simplistic and doesn't accurately represent what a cattle producer can expect.

Callicrate testified that once the USDA admitted it made a reporting error, live cattle prices went way up - $30 a head or even considerably more. Attorneys for the packers, however, said that shortly after the mistake was reported, the number of live cattle available for them to buy was low, forcing them to pay more.

Koch said he lost $48 a head on cattle he sold to Excel Corp., also known as Cargill Meat Solutions, during spring 2001. Had the USDA been reporting accurate boxed beef numbers, Koch said he might have made as much as $30 a head.

Excel is one of the defendants in the case. The others are Tyson Fresh Meats (formerly IBP), Swift (formerly ConAgra Beef) and National Beef (formerly Farmland National).

Tracking prices: In depositions, former employees for the packers said that they do track boxed beef prices and, at least occasionally, compare them to similar internal numbers. But, they said, that's just one factor in what they pay for live cattle. What price grocery stores are willing to pay for boxed beef, what producers are willing to take for their animals and futures markets are some others.

Attorneys for the packers moved to have the case dismissed Monday because of comments Callicrate made about mandatory boxed beef reports packers must make to the USDA. That request was denied.

Herman Schumacher, owner of a livestock auction in Herreid, is the third plaintiff. He's expected to testify today. The case resumes at 9 a.m.

The plaintiffs claim the meat packers cost cattle producers as much as $42.79 million. The lawsuit has been granted class-action status. That means that if the plaintiffs win, all cattle producers who sold cattle to the four packers during the disputed period and have not opted out of it could receive a portion of any settlement.
 
The plaintiffs need to get SH there to testify. How many times have we heard him tell us that live cattle prices track boxed beef? Either he's wrong (again) or the packer's lawyers are lying.
 
Sandhusker...Either he's wrong (again) or the packer's lawyers are lying.



It must be the packer lawyers are lying, because you know he is not wrong!!! :o
 
Tommy said:
Sandhusker...Either he's wrong (again) or the packer's lawyers are lying.



It must be the packer lawyers are lying, because you know he is not wrong!!! :o

Silly me. He's told us all how many times that he's never been refuted? How could I forget? :lol:
 
Sandhusker said:
The plaintiffs need to get SH there to testify. How many times have we heard him tell us that live cattle prices track boxed beef? Either he's wrong (again) or the packer's lawyers are lying.

A real world example: Packers reduce kill levels to stabilize dressed beef prices. Although dressed beef prices are now steady packer costs, due to reduced kills, are increaed by $15/head. Will the packer pay the same or less even though cutout values are steady?

Following a trend does not mean the same as being idential to that trend in actual or realtive value. It would be easy if those values were actually constant. The fact is they are not. They vary daily and they vary by packer.

BTW, I have not seen any claim by the plaintiffs or their attorneys that the packers entered any incorrect data into the USDA as you previously claimed following your conversation with Herman. If packers actually and knowingly entered incorrect as you claim why is that not part of the lawsuit?
 
Sandbag: "The plaintiffs need to get SH there to testify. How many times have we heard him tell us that live cattle prices track boxed beef? Either he's wrong (again) or the packer's lawyers are lying."

Sandbag you are such a dumbass!

Live cattle prices do track with boxed beef prices. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT BOXED BEEF PRICES ARE THE "ONLY" FACTOR AFFECTING LIVE CATTLE PRICES. I never claimed boxed beef prices were the ONLY factor affecting live cattle prices. Why do you take such satisfaction in beind such a deceptive moron?


This was this same Mike Callicrate that said "cattle prices are arbitrary and have nothing to do with supply and demand". This was this same Mike Callicrate that stated that "packers use captive supplies to apply downward pressure on cattle prices". WHERE ARE THOSE ARGUMENTS NOW SANDBAG?????? Now Mike totally contradicts those previous arguments using his "simplistic formula".

WOULDN'T THOSE "HUGE" $400 PER HEAD PACKER PROFITS THAT HE LIED TO EVERYONE ABOUT AFFECT WHAT PACKERS COULD PAY?????

WHERE IS "CAPTIVE SUPPLY" and "ARBITRARY PRICE" THEORIES COME INTO MIKE'S SIMPLISTIC FORMULA NOW SANDBAG????

Hello? HELLO? DAMN RIGHT SANDBAG HUNG UP THE PHONE!

I hope Tyson's lawyers review Mike's previous claims from his previous courtcases and pull his hypocritical pants down to his ankles. I am so sick of that lying @#!T*!@%*/.

The fact remains, boxed beef prices are the primary driver of live cattle prices. Does that mean it's the only factor as "MASTER ILLUSIONIST" Sandbag would suggest that I stated? Hell no! Just another one of his many deceptive spin jobs.

Available cattle affect price.
Hide and ofal values affect price.
Ground beef prices affect price.
High dollar middle meats affect price.
Whether boxed beef prices are rising or falling affects price.

REGARDLESS, BOXED BEEF PRICES ARE STILL THE PRIMARY DRIVER OF LIVE CATTLE PRICES AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

Will Sandbag contradict that statement with opposing facts?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

Any market analyst knows that boxed beef prices drive live cattle prices BUT THEY ALSO KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY FACTOR.

Sandbag can never, ever argue at word value. He can only spin "live cattle prices track with boxed beef prices" into meaning "BOXED BEEF PRICES ARE THE ONLY FACTOR AFFECTING LIVE CATTLE PRICES" with his sleazy innuendos.


~SH~
 
agman said:
Sandhusker said:
The plaintiffs need to get SH there to testify. How many times have we heard him tell us that live cattle prices track boxed beef? Either he's wrong (again) or the packer's lawyers are lying.

A real world example: Packers reduce kill levels to stabilize dressed beef prices. Although dressed beef prices are now steady packer costs, due to reduced kills, are increaed by $15/head. Will the packer pay the same or less even though cutout values are steady?

Following a trend does not mean the same as being idential to that trend in actual or realtive value. It would be easy if those values were actually constant. The fact is they are not. They vary daily and they vary by packer.

BTW, I have not seen any claim by the plaintiffs or their attorneys that the packers entered any incorrect data into the USDA as you previously claimed following your conversation with Herman. If packers actually and knowingly entered incorrect as you claim why is that not part of the lawsuit?

I suggest you reread my "claim".
 
~SH~ said:
Sandbag: "The plaintiffs need to get SH there to testify. How many times have we heard him tell us that live cattle prices track boxed beef? Either he's wrong (again) or the packer's lawyers are lying."

Sandbag you are such a dumbass!

Live cattle prices do track with boxed beef prices. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT BOXED BEEF PRICES ARE THE "ONLY" FACTOR AFFECTING LIVE CATTLE PRICES. I never claimed boxed beef prices were the ONLY factor affecting live cattle prices. Why do you take such satisfaction in beind such a deceptive moron?


This was this same Mike Callicrate that said "cattle prices are arbitrary and have nothing to do with supply and demand". This was this same Mike Callicrate that stated that "packers use captive supplies to apply downward pressure on cattle prices". WHERE ARE THOSE ARGUMENTS NOW SANDBAG?????? Now Mike totally contradicts those previous arguments using his "simplistic formula".

WOULDN'T THOSE "HUGE" $400 PER HEAD PACKER PROFITS THAT HE LIED TO EVERYONE ABOUT AFFECT WHAT PACKERS COULD PAY?????

WHERE IS "CAPTIVE SUPPLY" and "ARBITRARY PRICE" THEORIES COME INTO MIKE'S SIMPLISTIC FORMULA NOW SANDBAG????

Hello? HELLO? DAMN RIGHT SANDBAG HUNG UP THE PHONE!

I hope Tyson's lawyers review Mike's previous claims from his previous courtcases and pull his hypocritical pants down to his ankles. I am so sick of that lying @#!T*!@%*/.

The fact remains, boxed beef prices are the primary driver of live cattle prices. Does that mean it's the only factor as "MASTER ILLUSIONIST" Sandbag would suggest that I stated? Hell no! Just another one of his many deceptive spin jobs.

Available cattle affect price.
Hide and ofal values affect price.
Ground beef prices affect price.
High dollar middle meats affect price.
Whether boxed beef prices are rising or falling affects price.

REGARDLESS, BOXED BEEF PRICES ARE STILL THE PRIMARY DRIVER OF LIVE CATTLE PRICES AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

Will Sandbag contradict that statement with opposing facts?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

Any market analyst knows that boxed beef prices drive live cattle prices BUT THEY ALSO KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY FACTOR.

Sandbag can never, ever argue at word value. He can only spin "live cattle prices track with boxed beef prices" into meaning "BOXED BEEF PRICES ARE THE ONLY FACTOR AFFECTING LIVE CATTLE PRICES" with his sleazy innuendos.


~SH~

This case shows how much a little market information can mean a lot of money. In this case, the the transparency was undeniably compromised. The same can be said about JoAnn Waterfield's management of GIPSA. If the government, for whatever reason participates in mismanagement and it benefits large corporations who influence the political process with campaign contributions, should market participants who were harmed take the financial hit? Should the USDA be allowed to be used in this manner?

It is time for a little accountability in our government.

Agman came up with a possible scenario for differences in live prices tracking with boxed beef prices but is his scenario applicable? Does it even matter?

The argument the plaintiffs bring is that the information they relied on was in making their decisions to sell was incorrect. The fact is undisputable that the information was incorrect.

Whether or not the packers reporting the numbers knew of the discrepancy after compilation or not, still does not mean that they did not profit from that discrepancy.

The packers could have made sure they were not to blame if they had only reported the boxed beef prices directly to the sellers, and not just the govt. compiling agency. Heck, they could have posted them on their website.

Agman, did they do this?

To hide behind the USDA on this one really shows their ability to put the blame on someone else----and profit from it handsomely. Isn't that the gripe the cattlemen have with the concentration of the packers?
 
Conman: "The packers could have made sure they were not to blame if they had only reported the boxed beef prices directly to the sellers, and not just the govt. compiling agency. Heck, they could have posted them on their website."

SINCE WHEN ARE THE PACKERS RESPONSIBLE FOR REPORTING THE BOXED BEEF PRICES THEY RECEIVE TO THE FEEDERS??????

WHAT THE HELL KIND OF A COMMUNIST WORLD DO YOU DESIRE FOR THIS INDUSTRY?????

I'll fight you government mandate lovers with every once of energy I have. If socialist packer blamers like you got your way, there would be no "FREE MARKET".

The packers don't owe you a damn living. If you think the packing industry is so great BUY A PACKING COMPANY and quit trying to regulate the industry. You packer blamers are so pathetic.


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Conman: "The packers could have made sure they were not to blame if they had only reported the boxed beef prices directly to the sellers, and not just the govt. compiling agency. Heck, they could have posted them on their website."

SINCE WHEN ARE THE PACKERS RESPONSIBLE FOR REPORTING THE BOXED BEEF PRICES THEY RECEIVE TO THE FEEDERS??????

WHAT THE HELL KIND OF A COMMUNIST WORLD DO YOU DESIRE FOR THIS INDUSTRY?????

I'll fight you government mandate lovers with every once of energy I have. If socialist packer blamers like you got your way, there would be no "FREE MARKET".

The packers don't owe you a damn living. If you think the packing industry is so great BUY A PACKING COMPANY and quit trying to regulate the industry. You packer blamers are so pathetic.


~SH~

It is called market transparency, SH.

It is the reason the reporting was required and a necessary part of a functioning and efficient market.

I agree with you on this, unless we get the corruption and incompetence out of the USDA by holding people accountable, it will not change.

Johanns seems to not want to go that route. He is spending too much time scaring off our foreign buyers of beef.
 
Conman: "It is called market transparency, SH.

It is the reason the reporting was required and a necessary part of a functioning and efficient market."

Bullsh*t! It's Punish achievement / regulate prosperity "SOCIALISM"!

It's called, "PLEASE GOVERNMENT, SAVE US FROM THOSE LARGE EVIL CORPORATIONS" victim mentality that absolutely plagues this industry.

Voluntary price reporting provided adequate information. If MPR was discontinued tomorrow, I doubt few would even notice.

The free market system dictates that if there is a SIZEABLE profit to be made, SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING TO MAKE THAT PROFIT TOO.

Particularly in the case of the cattle industry. Cattle producers own the grass, they own the machinery, and they own the cattle. They have the equity to control this industry from pasture to plate AND SOME DO (USPB). They hold the cards, not the packers. When they give up control of their cattle, they give up control of their industry. If they are so damned convinced that packers are making all this money, take some of that equity and invest it in the packing industry AND FIND OUT. Those who did found out quickly how competitive the packing industry is THAT WAS SUPPOSEDLY SO ANTI COMPETITIVE.

The same blamers that say there is no competition in the packing industry turn around and say that small packers can't compete. EITHER THERE IS COMPETITION OR THERE ISN'T!

You damn socialists want the government to run the industry and shore up poor management so the blamers can be carried by the forward thinking successful businessman.

DAMN SOCIALISTS!


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Conman: "It is called market transparency, SH.

It is the reason the reporting was required and a necessary part of a functioning and efficient market."

Bullsh*t! It's Punish achievement / regulate prosperity "SOCIALISM"!

It's called, "PLEASE GOVERNMENT, SAVE US FROM THOSE LARGE EVIL CORPORATIONS" victim mentality that absolutely plagues this industry.

Voluntary price reporting provided adequate information. If MPR was discontinued tomorrow, I doubt few would even notice.

The free market system dictates that if there is a SIZEABLE profit to be made, SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING TO MAKE THAT PROFIT TOO.

Particularly in the case of the cattle industry. Cattle producers own the grass, they own the machinery, and they own the cattle. They have the equity to control this industry from pasture to plate AND SOME DO (USPB). They hold the cards, not the packers. When they give up control of their cattle, they give up control of their industry. If they are so damned convinced that packers are making all this money, take some of that equity and invest it in the packing industry AND FIND OUT. Those who did found out quickly how competitive the packing industry is THAT WAS SUPPOSEDLY SO ANTI COMPETITIVE.

The same blamers that say there is no competition in the packing industry turn around and say that small packers can't compete. EITHER THERE IS COMPETITION OR THERE ISN'T!

You damn socialists want the government to run the industry and shore up poor management so the blamers can be carried by the forward thinking successful businessman.

DAMN SOCIALISTS!


~SH~

Since you know so little about economics, let me clue you in, SH. Cattlemen do not have market power, the big packers do. They get this market power by driving down profits in the industry, buying their smaller competitors, and running the rest out of business through their little helpers at the USDA.

Until they have their working group of packers, they will continue price suppression and continue the concentration game. The lack of high profits during this stage for packers does not mean that they are not exerting market power. That is a misnomer on your part. It is about like your guns are legitimate so they can not be used for illegal purposes argument.

After they develop the model, as they did in poultry, they will take all the producer surplus they can and use the USDA to do it as they have in poultry. Meanwhile they will pay their pocket politicians off to keep up their scams.
 
More "factually void" bullsh*t allegations from Conman.

Conman: "Cattlemen do not have market power, the big packers do."

USPB is a successful PRODUCER OWNED packing company. The fourth or fifth largest packer in the industry. Where did that equity come from Conman?

Yup SHOR GOT ME THAR CONMAN!

NEXT!



~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
More "factually void" bullsh*t allegations from Conman.

Conman: "Cattlemen do not have market power, the big packers do."

USPB is a successful PRODUCER OWNED packing company. The fourth or fifth largest packer in the industry. Where did that equity come from Conman?

Yup SHOR GOT ME THAR CONMAN!

NEXT!



~SH~

Are they all cattelmen, SH?
 
Conman: "Are they all cattelmen, SH?"

Diversion!

They don't ALL have to be cattlemen to have made the point that SOME cattlemen control their own destiny and create their own "MARKET POWER". Harris Ranches did the same. Oregon Country beef did the same.

You got nothing to support your position AGAIN Conman, NOTHING!



~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Conman: "Are they all cattelmen, SH?"

Diversion!

They don't ALL have to be cattlemen to have made the point that SOME cattlemen control their own destiny and create their own "MARKET POWER". Harris Ranches did the same. Oregon Country beef did the same.

You got nothing to support your position AGAIN Conman, NOTHING!



~SH~

So you are saying that cattlemen can not rely on fair markets for their products anymore, they have to integrate themselves?

I think you are right about that one, SH.

If you look at Goldkist, a poultry company, you will see some problems with that strategy as well. The market concentration games require a little more long term strategic sacrifice to get the market power necessary to manipulate prices. Most farmers/ranchers don't want to play those games, they want to make an honest living.

Family companies like Cargill, Tyson and others don't mind playing those games while shafting producers. As long as they can get away with it legally and politically, we will have a cheap food policy in the U.S. It seems the USDA is a champion of this cause.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top