• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

FUNNEL BUTTS & GREED! - It' a CATCH 22!

Jason: You hit the nail on the head. Every bull I have sold off the farm has been the biggest or the cheapest.
They always ask "how much for that one" pointing at the biggest. Then after they say "Dang that is too much for me" I start pricing the cheep ones.
They often look at the EPD's but no matter it is always the biggest or the cheapest.
I have a yearling in the pen now that should be cut. But I plan to just feed him out and put him in the freezer. But I bet that he is sold before I get a chance to eat him. Some one will come buy looking for an Angus bull only want to pay stockyard prices. I will sell him for just a little over what he would bring at the stockyard and have to set my sights on another calf to eat.
There is nothing wrong with that either. They don't run the best cows and they are better off with the lesser bull than buying one at the stockyard that they don't know anything about. And if he won't breed the cows they can bring him back.
 
WHO-O-O-A-A-A OL' BETSY!!!!! :shock: Hold on there and settle down! Don't get the idea that DOC HARRIS is trying to morph Angus Cattle into something that looks like Continentals! :???: NO WAY - HO-ZAY! Let's get that straight, right now - right now! :mad: If you will read my post, you should realize (at least I HOPE) that I was attempting to explain WHY - - -Ah say WHY - - I use the term "FUNNEL BUTTS!" It seems very self-explanatory to me! :roll: The magnificent Maternal and Marbling and per cent of Intramuscular Fat Traits in the Angus Breed are the EXACT factors which have catapulted the Angus breed into the prominence it enjoys today - while at the same time those same traits TEND to create FUNNEL BUTTS! Here we go full cycle back to - - CATCH 22! :shock: :shock: The attempt to answer this conundrum and circumvent the problem :shock: :shock: :o :o SURPRISE - SURPRISE - SURPRISE! :o - - - -CROSS BREEDING! Have any of you reader's of my posts EVER read my words advocating CROSS BREEDING? :roll: If NOT - go back and read 'em again!! Wake up and smell the coffee! :roll: :wink:

DON'T GET ME STARTED!!

DOC HARRIS
 
I have to say I usually agree with Jason on most issues, but on this one I don't. Maybe you are right about the size of angus in some areas that raise a lot of feed, but if they get any bigger around here, they will be able to take a round bale in their mouth and run with it. :lol: In my opinion the industry has NO PLACE for a 1900 pound beef cow EVER. Their offspring do not fit the industry standard at all, and it would take more than twice as much feed to winter her as a 1200 pound cow. That is using the rule that for every 100# over 1200 it takes 17% more feed or something like that. Our cows are not undersized by any means, but a fat dry in June will usually weigh 12-1400. Any bigger than that and we could not winter them on grass in this climate. There was a registered breeder from not too far from here mentioned once, and I just get pissed off when I see them advertising bulls with 205 wts. of 900# or more. That is not real world cattle and either dishonest or rediculous.

We started buying bulls from a registered breeder in Wyo. who has a herd you could maybe select a few bulls from that might end up being a bit small. We picked out between 25-30 bulls that we thought would fit our herd and every one of those bulls brought over 5000 dollars a head. He had a smoker of a sale. One of the most consistant sales that I have ever seen.

One last point is that when you go to a herd and look over all the bulls, the biggest most muscular bull usually will catch your eye, but he is not necessarily the best bull for your herd. It's just human nature, and I have a hard time with that myself.

I had to be honest here, and I strongly feel for THIS area that I am right.

Everthing in moderation.
 
I just wanted to throw in that we didn't buy 30- 5000$ bulls, or even need that many, but I was just pointing out that many cattlemen must be interested in the moderate genetics from that ranch.
 
We run a heinz 57 herd, a bit of everything. We have alot of smaller framed cows. We also have discovered that these smaller framed cows wean off just as good or better calf than those 1800-1900 lb. monster cows. And they eat less to do it! We aim for smaller birthweights on our calves, so we don't even bother looking at the biggest bulls for sale. We buy small birthweight bulls (always 2 year olds) that are pleasing to the eye. At 2 years of age, you can get a pretty good idea of what kind of calf the bull is going to throw and what the calf will look like at weaning time. We don't buy the most expensive bull either, we buy what we can afford. We just bought a 2 and a half year old Simmental ( :oops: :help: ) that is smaller framed than our 2 and a half year old Hereford. Why did we buy him? Because he only has an 84 lb. birthweight, but is still carrying the flesh in all the right places.
 
Jason- When I see these angus breeders selling their cull cows that weigh 1500-1900 that breeders name is crossed off my list for a place to look for bulls...Don't need any more horses to feed :wink: ...

Jake- I found the same thing last year while looking for bulls...Went to a fellow that has a long history of Shoshone breeding- nice moderate sized, quiet cows- and all the bulls that I picked out and wanted were the smaller framed, muscled ones (sons of RR Hero 6267)- but they were the ones that also had all been spoken for already.....
 
Purebred cows weighing 1600 pounds in good flesh is not too big.

I am not advocating most 1800-1900 pound cows. A great many of them are trouble waiting to happen.

However a bigger cow does not always need more feed. The 1900 pound cow in my other post would do that on snowballs and gravel. She saw food she got fat. She was very thick not a horse of a cow.

The thing that determines how many groceries the cow needs is her surface area. A great big narrow frame looses more heat to the wind/cold and becomes the proverbial hay burner. Try feeding big white or yellow and white cows the same weight as black cows and see the difference side by side.

Hair has an effect on that as well. Herefords and Angus have a second haircoat the exotics don't have. They are better insulated.

As for the 900 pound weaning weights, that is not real world, even with 1900 pound cows. Those calves have had feed. Either irrigated pasture with legumes in it or actual creep feeders. I have raised calves that wean at over 800 but they are usually just over the 205 days too.

I asked one of my bull customers what his cows were doing at cull time and he said around that 1200 pound mark. I asked if they were fed he said no, just after weaning their calf and sold. They could weigh 1270 or so who knows, but they were not fed up, had no calf in them and were likely shrunk out when sold. Is that truely a 1200 pound cow?

I challenge anyone to show me a herd of truely 1200 pound cows, in good winter shape with a calf inside them, and weigh just 1200 pounds. Show me that herd I will show you some 400 pound weaning weights too.
 
Well, Jason, come on over! Sure we have lots of bigger cows, but most of ours are in the 1200-1400 lb. range. And they do wean 700-800 lb. calves, no creepfeed for the calves. Just momma's milk and native pasture. Those big cows are just a waste of time and feed. Sold 4 cows yesterday that were open, they all had to tip the scale at least 1500 lb. plus. They were late calvers, too fat to cycle back, and weaned off 550-600 lb. calves.
 
I challenge anyone to show me a herd of truely 1200 pound cows, in good winter shape with a calf inside them, and weigh just 1200 pounds. Show me that herd I will show you some 400 pound weaning weights too.
Click to expand...

Jason, you make some sense as usual, but I still disagree that fat or no fat that anything over 1600 is way too big for a purebred herd even. Environment has a lot to do with cattle size, and I have no idea where you are located up there, but for commercial cattlemen in this area where hay is usually at a premium, cows just don't need to be huge.

My theory is to buy a bull from someone who puts a few tests on his/her cowherd rather than a free ride. We don't give second chances very often around here, and I don't want a bull that is out of a cow that went open once or more in her life either. A cow that weighs over 1500 just cannot make it year after year after year on low inputs. She has to take care of herself sometimes too.

I have stated the manner in which we run our cattle several times on here, and we maybe could do a better job of culling the lowest producers, (we sell some, but could be more rigid on it), but if a cow breeds back her whole life around here, she is earning her keep. Our mature cows in working condition would not be a lot bigger than your 1200 lb. size, but we always wean a calf over 500lb a ways by mid Oct. That is calving in Apr./May. too. You can come look for yourself anytime.

Another thought that this topic brought to mind is a cow that we had that never wanted to eat cake. She always wintered with the outside bunches, and always rebred and had a good calf. She was flighty, but if there was an EPD for feed efficency she would have been +100. Grass, salt and maybe hay on the worst days of winter. She would have been a cloning candidate for sure. :!:
 
I agree with you Oldtimer. I think the pendulum has started to swing back in the moderate direction. The bulls we liked real well were OCC Emblazon. Hope to see more of them.
 
Well sir my cows are that 1000 to 1200# old style black angus my calves averaged 566#s this year and are straight angus for the most part a few black baldies.My calves were born from march 1st to the 17th of april on the steers I sold.I sold an open cow in june that was one of my bigger cows and she weighed 1230#s She had lost her calf earlier during calving but had bulked up on grass.I have one little cow that weighs about a 1000#s she weaned a heifer calf last year that weighed 595#s this years calf weighed 560#s both heifer calves.

I started feeding last year on Dec 18th and went to grass on May 21st we fed 400 ton of corn silage that was 72% moisture and 480 1100# bales of grass hay the cows were kept on an 80 acre parcel all through winter so no extra picking was to be had..free choice mineral and salt no grain or cake and NO lick tubs..

I get razzed about my little cows but thats O.K. they make me money and thats what really counts...
 
Don't you guys forget, phenotype is the product of genotype and environment. You can have a 1200 pound cow that is a 1600 pound cow if her environment (the feed truck) fed her to that weight. Ask doc. We have cows that are too big but they will eliminate themselves from the herd because we will not feed to the level of those cows, that would break us and make the smaller cows so obese they would not breed back. Our replacements are not fed to potential size, they are raised slow, so they are not monster cows but the carcass weights we sell are 1350 plus. You still get paid by the pound, and you buy feed by the pound. As Soapweed says all of the time moderation is the thing. :wink:
 
A cow should never weigh more than her steer will when he's finished-how many thousand 1200 pound cows you want to see Jason-there's lots in our country-weaning weight is pretty redundant if you run grass cattle or finish your calves out-it's just a brag figure for most guys. I really love the purebred catalogues with Feb. calves weaned in November and an actual weaning weight posted not age adjusted. I think if I ran 1600 pound cows they'd scare my bulls lol. Even with our smaller cows we get dinged with the odd heavy discount on the grid-I guess muscle does weigh up. Were getting an eyeopener this fall-I got a little bunch of cows trapped in a meadow-ice all around them they won't cross-they're grazing fescue and are fat as ticks-they might push 1205 lol.Dave Nichols said it best 'Pretty Is as Pretty Does.'
 
1900# cow? What good could she possibly be? I feel just like Jake, we don't need 1900 pounds cows. I agree with a lot of what you say Jason, and maybe you have the feed for a 1900# cow, but she wouldn't fit in courntry around here.

There are getting to be too many 1700-1800 pound cows in these registered herds. Take one of those cows and breed her to a high-performance bull and you can't help but make your cows bigger. That's what has been going on now for some time. Frame Creep. It's here.

It is said there is a direct corelation between finished steer size and mature cow size. Who wants a 1900# finished steer?
 
Another old saying, "The Only Thing That Is Constant Is Change!"

Picture this: A Moderate framed reasonably well conditioned 1200# cow. Now add TO that optimal cow ANOTHER 600#s, or the equivalent of a healthy 600# WEANED CALF! Now you have an 1800# forage consumer! How much do you think it will cost to: a) maintain that cow in optimal condition to carry and deliver a healthy calf? b) Breed that cow and expect her to conceive the first time? c) Continue to nurse a growing calf on the ground, nourish a growing fetus for a few months and also maintain her own health AND condition at the same time on the economical roughage she will be expected to utilize? d) Repeat this scenario year after year after year regularly with NO health problems ensuing and make you money to boot?? Now multiply that by 50 or 100 or more brood cows of the same size! What is your feed, winter forage and labor costs going to amount to? WAY too much! That's what the Weaned Calf Value ($W) is all about - as well as the rest of the EPD's that determine an individual's ability to make a profit - for YOU! Moderation is the KEY to a successful operation. It's your BUSINESS!

DOC HARRIS
 
I revamped a Squeeze Chute for a Angus guy that had 2100 pound mature cows, It was unbelievable........He had his place setup to feed them, those 17-1800 pound cows can get bigger if you feed them right....errrrrr wrong, LOL.

I've said before I happen to have the feed to run larger cows. I want 875-900 lb Carcass wieghts on the grid. Gives me 50-75 pounds buffer before they start discounting. Even with my situation, I can't see 160 pound cows. At 9 months Pregnant and overcondition, mine will hit that,


I think Doc Makes a good point. I say this a a guy that makes or loses money by buying cows. Yield is everything on butcher cows.....I see the poor yielding body type cows also raising poor yielding calves. You can get a good feel on yield of a cow based on the Belly and Butt,

PPRM
 
If I understood correctly on the #1900 cow, she went on to become a donor. We have between 25-35 cows that will push 2,000 lbs. Once you start collecting eggs the cows really swell up. Part of the super ovulation protocal puts testostorone into the system which puts a layer of fat on these cows. Was the cow collected prior to the #1900 weight? I agree that 1900 is to big for a cow, however the donors and ex-donors we own all run together year round and do not eat anything but GRASS hay, except for the two weeks every 3 months we collect. Those cows cannot lose weight. Even when they calve in every other year, and nurse a actual 650-700 pound calf they will tip the scale at over 1700 and look great.When you start fooling mother nature these things happen, and I expect that was the case with the heavy cow.
 
How many of you have ran your cows across a scale? Cows can vary in weight easily 400 pounds over the course of the year. I have always said the worst thing you can ask me is what do my cows weigh. It depends, this year the fall pasture has been exceptional and my cows are carrying 200 pounds more than usual.

I said I had 1 1900 pound cow and she stayed at that weight on what I fed the average cow.

Efficient cows are not measured by their scale weight. They are measured by what they produce less what they cost you.

The new epds are flawed in that they assume all cows have the same metabolic rate. That is like saying all human females that are 5ft 2in weigh 110 pounds. Or that on the same caloric intake they would all equal to the same weight.

The other bogus theory that has been mentioned is the dam's weight being close to her finished steer's weight. Totally false. Many factors influence the finished weight of a steer. Breed for one. I have finished bulls from big cows at 1400 pounds and bulls take longer to finish than steers. Grassing a large farmed steer is the number 1 cause of huge finished weights.

I am not a fan of huge cows, but 1600 pound cows are not huge. They sound big if you are of the mind set that your cows are 1200 pounds. Denny you might have a small set of cows, but the one that was dry was 1230, she was open and not fattened on grain. She likely could have been taken to 1400 pretty easily. Being in MN is like irrigated pasture too. :wink:

The extra 400 pounds of cow does not add up to 25% more feed. The cows surface area is only slightly bigger (unless she is a tall narrow Holstien type) but we are talking same breed comparisons. I have hand fed big cows and seen them eat less than small cows. (2 sets of twins one year).

I always chuckle when bred heifer sales are going during the fall. Guys won't buy a bred heifer less than 1000 pounds but swear their cows are no more than 1200.

I sold a heifer to Mississippi a few years back that was a grand daughter of that big thick cow. She was a direct daughter of Traveler 23-4 and was not a big framed cow at all. I would say my cows here the same size would weigh 1350, but she tipped the scales at 1790. The nice weather and all the grass she wanted made her look like her grandma. When I saw the cow I thought she was close to 1600. Scales don't lie.
 
Jason,

You're right on Cow wieght fluctuations. I have had some large framed Feeder Cows I have bought gain over 8 pounds per day the first couple of weeks. Seems like thin cows not only put on fat, but the Muscle tissues seem to increase in size to......


There's a ton of factors that wieght itself doesn't tell the whole story. Thickness, metabolic rate, ect, but when you start needing 15-25 acres to carry a cow, 1200 lbs is the upper reasonable limit. That is a 1200 lb cow with a moderate frame. I am sure there are exceptions, but the ranchers out here can't afford to trying to feed a bunch to find this exception.

If you feel that 1900 pound cow could produce in these conditions, you could make a ton of money off of daughters doin the same....

I also agree with you on the hypocracy of what people say. They are into moderate cows, but buy the biggest bull or large bred hifers that don't match what they are saying. Mike or Alabama said it in another post, they want the biggest or cheapest in many cases,

PPRM
 
Jason don't you sell your cull cows by the pound we sure do-thats one time they are weighed-that 1,000 pound heifer weight thing is pure b.s.-I've sold several hundred that weighed closer to 900 at a pretty good premium. I've never had to get my cattle hogfat to sell them as breeding stock. I offer to buy all the heifer calves back off my sale heifers at a premium-so far I've been able to purchase 0 of them. So trust me there is still lots of 12 weight cows in ranch country.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top