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Globalization

Sandhusker - What kind of statement is "You can't raise yourself up by putting another down".

What ever it is that Rcalf is trying to accomplish is only focused on putting down the Canadian producer at the moment.

The way that you and the rest of the Rcalf boys talk and write, I surely do not know what it is you are trying to accomplish.

You are not anti NCBA, then your are.

You are out to curtail the packers, but call them legitimate.

What is it that you are after Sundhusker, besides a closed border for reasons beyond my comprehesion at the moment? Keeping the USDA honest, saving Americans from a horrible death, stopping the spead of an unspreadable health problem, or simply and honestly holding up your cull cow prices for a bit longer, and then when they drop blaming Canada some more.
 
Sandhusker said:
MRJ, "Most interesting is the pointed differences in reacting to that fact between NCBA and R-Calf: NCBA members educate themselves and work to do what may be achievable to maintain a level playing field in international trade for US cattle producers. NCBA members recognize that there will be opportunities for cattlemen who are paying attention to business."

That all sounds great, MRJ, but reality doesn't show that. I try not to bash the NCBA as I have good friends and customers as members and I don't think you can raise yourself up by putting others down. However, what exactly has the NCBA done do keep "a level playing field in international trade"?

[I will try to find some material to post showing what NCBA has done in international trade. It is probably as available to you as it is to me on the beef.org website. I have stated many times that marketing and trade are not my strong points in the organization or area of study or interest. There are other members of my family who pay more attention to that. There is a great bunch on that committee of NCBA and to imply as you did that they have never done anything in that area is an insult! As Jamie Willrett stated on the NCBA RFD-TV show, when people in our country question it[the science involved in BSE precautions as stated and implied by R-CALF propaganda aimed at keeping the Canadian border closed], the Japanese people become nervous about US beef and put pressure on their leaders to keep it out. NCBA leaders have been involved in some ways in helping to open Japan to our beef. One way, which I heard mentioned on KRVN radio at Lexington, NE just this forenoon, was by conducting consumer education in Japan. I do know that work of that sort was also done years ago via the Beef Checkoff and the then National Livestock and Meatboard, now the Federation div. of NCBS. That was why US beef was accepted into Japan previous to our BSE case. Both NCBA Dues/Policy div. and the Federation div. have long been involved in promoting sales of beef to other nations. Leaders and members are very aware that the 94% of the world population who are not citizens of the USofA are a growing, probably THE growing market for our beef, among other products.]

R-CALF members also know there will be opportunities. They also know our opportunities are hamstrung when we only seem to establish open trade agreements with beef exporting nations. R-CALF has also brought up the fact that there is a huge imbalance on tariffs between us and the rest of the world. Has NCBA addressed those problems?

[Briefly, certainly NCBA has addressed these problems. Were it not for NCBA and others' work in Congress, and elsewhere, the improving lowering of tariffs for our product would most likely not have happened. That is and will continue to be an ongoing effort. If, as you claim, R-CALF was always aware of the opportunities, why did Bullard state that we did not need to export, but close our imports of beef? The NCBA take on that idea is that we must give some access to our markets in order to gain the far larger access to that 94% of the worlds population beyond our borders]

MRJ, "R-CALF insists on trying to turn back the clock and close our borders to trade, insulating producers from potential profits from trading with the 94% of the world population outside US borders and whose citizens are growing their disposable incomes, some quite rapidly."

You are wrong, MRJ. It upsets me when people who are generally R-CALF bashes talk about R-CALF's views on trade and what not, and are totally wrong. I would be happy to fax you articles from their magazine so you can understand what they are trying to do straight from horse's mouth.

[Hopefully, my machines will soon be Fax capable again and I will advise you. Meanwhile, aren't the R-Calf press releases indicative of their views? That is what I have based my viewpoints on.]

MRJ, "Tragically, while supposedly fighting against the large packing companies they like to portray as evil,...."

[That simply doesn't work, Sandhusker! Of course Leo doesn't have to e the villain saying bad things about others. He has Johnny Smith, Dennis Hanson, Herman Schumacher, and other auction market owners with their "market reports" on radio and in newspapers, as well as other vocal people who in the same breath as they tell ranchers that packers are taking advantage and trying to put them out of business or to make them "serfs on their own land", they urge everyone to donate to and join R-CALF. Pretty effective and R-CALF can officially maintain clean hands.....just like their "no official stand against the Beef Checkoff" mantra! They don't have to make a committment....others lead the cheers and jeers for them.}

You are wrong again, MRJ. R-CALF has not portayed large packers as evil. Once again, you need to get you information on their views from them and not an alternate source. I'd be happy to send you an article by Bullard that addresses big packers directly. He does NOT say they are evil. His stand is that they are simply companies pursuing legitimate business plans using their means to achieve their goals. Not evil - LEGITIMATE. The problem is that thier vision puts US cattlemen in a bad spot, and the US cattleman had better speak up for themselves and exert some like pressure to achieve OUR goals, or we won't be happy.

[My paragragraph above addresses much of your comments above. Plus, you claim what Bullard is doing is pretty much what NCBA long has done and for which many of you R-CALF members and promoters claim is being "controlled by packers", and I don't think you mean it in a friendly way. Maybe you don't use the word "evil", but the connotation is there all too often. NCBA works with packers from a position of strength. We have records showing times we have opposed them on issues. We have many successes of working with them and getting them to at least partially fund (and it hasn't been peanuts!) projects, sometimes partnering with Checkoff funds, to develop new convenient beef products consumers want
as well as to cut the incidences of e Coli outbreaks.]

[parts within brackets by MRJ in reply to Sandhusker]

MRJ
 
Randy, we have a bad pattern here. You ask a question you've asked before, I answer it, and then you ask the question again.

Randy,"What ever it is that Rcalf is trying to accomplish is only focused on putting down the Canadian producer at the moment. The way that you and the rest of the Rcalf boys talk and write, I surely do not know what it is you are trying to accomplish. "

I'll answer again, and I'll kindly ask you to read my answer aloud;
R-CALF'S PRIMARY OBJECTIVE IS NOT DOING DAMAGE TO THE CANADIAN PRODUCERS. R-CALF'S PRIMARY OBJECTIVE
IS TO STAND UP FOR US PRODUCERS SO THAT THE AMI'S CHECKBOOKS ARE NOT THE PRIMARY TRADE POLICY DIRECTORS.

We used to have a zero-tolerance policy regarding BSE in this country. It was a good policy as BSE is a big nasty. For years, when any country showed they had BSE, we closed the boder to them. Canada had the EXACT SAME POLICY. Everybody was happy UNTIL Canada was added to the list of 20-something countries. All of a sudden, the USDA was wanting to change policy, and even broke THEIR OWN rules in prematurely opening the border. Why, a rational observer might ask? Because of money. The USDA is compromising a health policy because, suddenly, this policy is costing our multi-nationals money. It was no big deal closing to England, France, etc... the AMI companies weren't getting pinched from closing to them. The USDA could thump their chests on taking strong measures to keep BSE out of the US and the AMI really wasn't affected. Happy, Happy. BUT, Canada was a totally different deal. This border closure hurt this time. They went to the USDA and we all know the rest of the story. R-CALF feels this is totally unacceptable - and it is. THIS IS WHAT R-CALF'S POLICY TOWARDS THE BORDER IS BASED UPON - NOT "HOW CAN WE DESTROY THE CANADIAN RANCHER". IT'S ABOUT HALTING THIS TAIL WAGGING THE DOG RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN USDA AND AMI. If the Canada border snow-job is allowed to happen unchecked, the US cattleman is going to be facing blizzard after blizzard.[/u]

Randy, you of all people should understand this. The EXACT same thing is happening up there!
 
MRJ, "As Jamie Willrett stated on the NCBA RFD-TV show, when people in our country question it[the science involved in BSE precautions as stated and implied by R-CALF propaganda aimed at keeping the Canadian border closed], the Japanese people become nervous about US beef and put pressure on their leaders to keep it out. "

So Mr. Willrett would like us to believe that the Japanese consumers are listening to R-CALF :lol: Quick, MRJ, just name one of the Japanese cattleman's groups...can you? I can't. I doubt hardly any of us on this board (and involved in the cattle business) can, yet the common consumer in Japan not only knows our groups, but are listening to them? I doubt it.

MRJ, "Both NCBA Dues/Policy div. and the Federation div. have long been involved in promoting sales of beef to other nations. "

NCBA or checkoff?

MRJ, "Were it not for NCBA and others' work in Congress, and elsewhere, the improving lowering of tariffs for our product would most likely not have happened. "

The tariff situation for our product is unacceptable today. I'd say whoever was in charge of that project needs to be reasigned. That is not a bragging point for anybody.

Let me know when you get your fax fixed. I'll get you on the right track , yet!
 
Sandhusker said:
MRJ, "As Jamie Willrett stated on the NCBA RFD-TV show, when people in our country question it[the science involved in BSE precautions as stated and implied by R-CALF propaganda aimed at keeping the Canadian border closed], the Japanese people become nervous about US beef and put pressure on their leaders to keep it out. "

So Mr. Willrett would like us to believe that the Japanese consumers are listening to R-CALF :lol: Quick, MRJ, just name one of the Japanese cattleman's groups...can you? I can't. I doubt hardly any of us on this board (and involved in the cattle business) can, yet the common consumer in Japan not only knows our groups, but are listening to them? I doubt it.

[I don't need to be able to name a Japanese cattlemens group. But I'm betting that if they have them, NCBA at some point in time has or will be talking to them. But it was Japanese consumers that have attended meat education classes. You may or may not know that many of the supermarkets in Japan are very modern. They have people come in to conduct classes on cooking and information on new products. NCBA and the Beef Checkoff have been involved with Japanese marketers and consumers for many years. I don't a lot about it as I only heard highlights of that work and it was several years ago, maybe as much as ten years. I have no idea whether or not the Japanese consumers knew that it was the NCBA (or predecessor org.), but they did buy our beef, and that work had an effect. Phil Seng could probably tell you more. The people conducting the classes, I'm quite sure would have been well trained professionals, maybe dieticians or something similar. You can doubt it all you want, but that won't change the facts.]

MRJ, "Both NCBA Dues/Policy div. and the Federation div. have long been involved in promoting sales of beef to other nations. "

NCBA or checkoff?

[Both. And it may have been before it became NCBA, and I feel safe in stating it has happened since it became NCBA. Remember, NDBA does quite a lot of work for the Checkoff, and that may involve one or both divisions of NCBA.]

MRJ, "Were it not for NCBA and others' work in Congress, and elsewhere, the improving lowering of tariffs for our product would most likely not have happened. "

The tariff situation for our product is unacceptable today. I'd say whoever was in charge of that project needs to be reasigned. That is not a bragging point for anybody.

[Would you please tell us specifically what the "tariff situation for our product" actually is at the present time? Is it better or worse than ten years ago? Are you for or against the CAFTA which will lower tariffs on our product in yet another group of countries? Surely, you will say they can't afford beef, but they do buy some and the tariffs are high. Lowering them will help sell more of our product there for their tourist trade and their wealthy citizens as well as to gain entry for more of our lower cost products in little demand in the USA. How is that bad for us?]

Let me know when you get your fax fixed. I'll get you on the right track , yet!

[So, you are saying what R-CALF says in the magazine is totally opposite what they say in the news releases on which I base my opinions of the organization? That would have to be the case to change my "track"!]

MRJ
 
rkaiser said:
8) Fair enough post MRJ except that you forgot to mention that the so called Canadian packing industry expansion is 90% American mutinational. Closed border has been very favourable to mutinationals ganing even more control. Ironic isn't it?

[Randy, have you joined R-CALF? You sound just like them, bashing the packers. Do you think you will be better off if there are more small packers that obviously willt pay lower prices for your cattle due to their higher cost of operation than the big outfits?

MRJ
 
MRJ said:
rkaiser said:
8) Fair enough post MRJ except that you forgot to mention that the so called Canadian packing industry expansion is 90% American mutinational. Closed border has been very favourable to mutinationals ganing even more control. Ironic isn't it?

[Randy, have you joined R-CALF? You sound just like them, bashing the packers. Do you think you will be better off if there are more small packers that obviously willt pay lower prices for your cattle due to their higher cost of operation than the big outfits?

MRJ

MRJ, How can you say a packer can pay more JUST because he is bigger or has more packing plants? I say that just because a company has 20 packing plants don't necessarily make him more efficient and will pay more than a one who has 3 packing plants. In fact I believe that the opposite is true. The more plants a company has the more volume he will need and will able to buy cattle at a "CHEAPER" price. Big is not ultimately better because most plants are stand alone units, meaning, if a plant is not doing well the owners may shut down a single plant.
Also, many smaller packers have state of the art equipment also, not all, but many do.
Now if you are talking about a small "Mom and Pop" packer I agree to an extent. But his overhead is a lot less also.
But your word, "OBVIOUSLY" is not quite so obvious to me.
Size does not make "EFFICIENCY" alone. It's usually management and employees who make efficiency along with a properly constructed plant with the right equipment.
 
:roll:No MRJ, I have not joined Rcalf yet. I can't see myself flipping from science to protectionism, and back again like our good old Sandhusker does on a moment to moment whim. Just because I don't believe that monopolistic cuture is the way for this world to survive is no reason for the Rcalf label. Tactics are tactics, and offering solutions is far more progressive than pointing fingers and blameing. Why do none of you reply to my suggestion of producer owned packing in the United States. Sure we both live in free and progressive business minded countries, but tell me how the evolution of basically three packers has helped the beef producers of either of our countries. We didn't think we needed more than Cargil and Tyson either until May 20, 2003. By Sept., 03 and the boxed beef windfall started, they showed us what they were all about.

I do not disagree that the AMI and NMA need to be kept in check by someone. Governments bow to big business. However this closed border issue has not done anything but support the BIG 3 packers, and especially Cargil and Tyson. Expain with capital letters all you want Sandhusker, and maybe even write them in bold next time.

Rcalf's efforts have not done what you say. All they have done is hurt Canadian ranchers, and maybe some of the smaller American packers who you can't even see that you yourselves need. And they have potential for real hurt on the American ranchers themselves when the second American cow is discovered, and the trail of blame cannot be connected to Canada.
 
Randy, " I can't see myself flipping from science to protectionism, and back again like our good old Sandhusker does on a moment to moment whim"

Sorry, old buddy, but when have you ever seen me embracing this "science" push in trade that appears to be the new buzz word? I think it is a pretty shaky thing to be fronting in trade as examples abound of science being interpreted differently or completly ignored altogether. It's pretty obvious ANY country will do whatever is in their best interests regarding trade whether science applies or not.

I agree with a lot of the rest of your post, though. Except, of course, your opinion on R-CALF :lol:
 
Mike said:
MRJ said:
rkaiser said:
8) Fair enough post MRJ except that you forgot to mention that the so called Canadian packing industry expansion is 90% American mutinational. Closed border has been very favourable to mutinationals ganing even more control. Ironic isn't it?

[Randy, have you joined R-CALF? You sound just like them, bashing the packers. Do you think you will be better off if there are more small packers that obviously willt pay lower prices for your cattle due to their higher cost of operation than the big outfits?

MRJ

MRJ, How can you say a packer can pay more JUST because he is bigger or has more packing plants? I say that just because a company has 20 packing plants don't necessarily make him more efficient and will pay more than a one who has 3 packing plants. In fact I believe that the opposite is true. The more plants a company has the more volume he will need and will able to buy cattle at a "CHEAPER" price. Big is not ultimately better because most plants are stand alone units, meaning, if a plant is not doing well the owners may shut down a single plant.
Also, many smaller packers have state of the art equipment also, not all, but many do.
Now if you are talking about a small "Mom and Pop" packer I agree to an extent. But his overhead is a lot less also.
But your word, "OBVIOUSLY" is not quite so obvious to me.
Size does not make "EFFICIENCY" alone. It's usually management and employees who make efficiency along with a properly constructed plant with the right equipment.

Sorry, Mike, I should have said "can" pay more rather than "will". And added that, just as obviously, they will not pay more than they have to. But all that has been covered by others and maybe even some I have posted previously.

How can a small packing company be more efficient, because of economies of scale. Does anyone know of any study or other information on the optimum size of packing plant?

MRJ
 

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