Grass/Corn finished vs Grass/Grass finished

[PATB]

Any suggestion on angus bloodlines that work or don't work for grass finished cattle?

 

[RobertMac]

I'm thinking about raising calves on strictly a grass diet all the way to the butcher (versus finishing them on grain). My question is, given two calves that were identical in feed efficiency numbers and genetics, how much longer, on average would it take the grass finished calf to mature (for butchering) than the corn finished calf? ( I may be making a false assumption that the grass finished calf will take longer to mature) Thanks!

Short answer, it depends on what you feed them. On dairy quality pasture from birth to slaughter, you can equal feedlot time or very close (probably with a little less fat...everyone knows starch makes fat). BUT, as Ben and PC said, the genetics have to be right.

 

[burnt]

Because of the amount of good discussion here about grass-fed beef, I am slowly starting to consider trying it to see how it might work.

One thing to avoid, I am guessing from some of the comments, is Holsteins. :wink: :shock: :lol:

Now somebody, (GF?) has mentioned that there are some types of grasses better suited than others for grass fattening.

Is there more advice out there on this part of the equation?

Edit - RM, you posted at the same time as I did - what do you mean by "dairy quality forages"? How mature can the forage be and still achieve a finish?

 

[Trinity man]

I don't know much about Texas but we don't consider cattle finished at that weight. Have your customers never heard of Half a beef?If beef doesn't have a certain amount of "Finish" you lose a lot of (I'll make up my own word) eatability.

The only thing about a half is you can't always sell the other half and it has to be left at the processor so it stay under gov. inspection. (Which cost more) If I was to bring it home I would have to give it away or the government could bust me for selling it. Most people I have talk to here say they have a gamey taste at those high wt finished on grass and don't like that. Me I have ate it most of my life and can't tell the differents in the taste it all good.

 

[per]

Because of the amount of good discussion here about grass-fed beef, I am slowly starting to consider trying it to see how it might work.

One thing to avoid, I am guessing from some of the comments, is Holsteins. :wink: :shock: :lol:

Now somebody, (GF?) has mentioned that there are some types of grasses better suited than others for grass fattening.

Is there more advice out there on this part of the equation?

Edit - RM, you posted at the same time as I did - what do you mean by "dairy quality forages"? How mature can the forage be and still achieve a finish?

Burnt, we have had success finishing on swath grazed second cut Alfalfa cut after the first big frost and grazed in September or October. I also like meadow brome regrowth and often use fall rye seeded in July along with the brome.

 

[burnt]

Because of the amount of good discussion here about grass-fed beef, I am slowly starting to consider trying it to see how it might work.

One thing to avoid, I am guessing from some of the comments, is Holsteins. :wink: :shock: :lol:

Now somebody, (GF?) has mentioned that there are some types of grasses better suited than others for grass fattening.

Is there more advice out there on this part of the equation?

Edit - RM, you posted at the same time as I did - what do you mean by "dairy quality forages"? How mature can the forage be and still achieve a finish?

Burnt, we have had success finishing on swath grazed second cut Alfalfa cut after the first big frost and grazed in September or October. I also like meadow brome regrowth and often use fall rye seeded in July along with the brome.

At what maturity was the second cut alfalfa cut for swath grazing and would that be the same as cutting it and baling it to feed through the winter?

I have also read that cutting hay in the afternoon (specifically between 2 PM and 5 PM for peak sugars) results in higher plant sugar levels due to the higher rate of plant metabolism.

 

[per]

Because of the amount of good discussion here about grass-fed beef, I am slowly starting to consider trying it to see how it might work.

One thing to avoid, I am guessing from some of the comments, is Holsteins. :wink: :shock: :lol:

Now somebody, (GF?) has mentioned that there are some types of grasses better suited than others for grass fattening.

Is there more advice out there on this part of the equation?

Edit - RM, you posted at the same time as I did - what do you mean by "dairy quality forages"? How mature can the forage be and still achieve a finish?

Burnt, we have had success finishing on swath grazed second cut Alfalfa cut after the first big frost and grazed in September or October. I also like meadow brome regrowth and often use fall rye seeded in July along with the brome.

At what maturity was the second cut alfalfa cut for swath grazing and would that be the same as cutting it and baling it to feed through the winter?

I have also read that cutting hay in the afternoon (specifically between 2 PM and 5 PM for peak sugars) results in higher plant sugar levels due to the higher rate of plant metabolism.

In my world here it would not likely be in flower yet unless we had an early spring. The big thing for me is to cut after the killer frost. I am not sure when that happens for you. It is entirely possible to be ahead of the frost time by several weeks but it would need to be grazed before it kills underneath the swath. The research I have read is 11 am to 5 or 6 for the sugars to be in the plant. Late fall cutting though, it might be beneficial to leave some sugars in the roots. When I cut this fall I try to take some pics.

 

[Northern Rancher]

http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=59997&start=15

Not to brag but that old red angus bull is just what you need to grass finish-good fescue grass up here really hardens cattle or native blue grass-the rush to market with yearlings in august means we miss the months that really used to harden them up. it used to be you shipped when the manure caked instead of pied. our grass grading deal was actually a government project we ultrasounded the steers for fat cover then had them killed and graded. This was before marbling became a factor inour grading system-but looking back I'd say most of them would of been AA's.

 

[the_jersey_lilly_2000]

No the plants we use don't "grade" them officially - only with their multi-generational experience of high quality Swiss butchering.
Their finished weight is on average 600lbs hanging and we don't get a big spread on weights - they are usually pretty tight to the average. They walk out of the field (no shrink) at 1000-1100lbs probably with a 1050lb average.

This is what I don't understand. We take em in usually at around 800 lbs. Live weight.

Our processor doesn't give us a hanging weight. But that's probably because I've never asked for a hanging weight. The last one we took in weighed in at 850, and he was 14 mo old. Finished processed, and in the boxes there was 510 lbs of meat. That's without the heart, liver, or soup bones, and everything is trimmed lean. So if your taking in an animal that weighs 1000-1100 lbs live weight, and hanging weight is only 600 lbs, how many lbs of actual meat is that animal actually producing?

 

[Liveoak]

Interesting replies! Thanks!

Genetics has been mentioned has a serious consideration. My experience has been primarily with Brangus, Angus and Beefmaster; private treaty sales and the salebarn. The grass fed/finishing will be a new venture. It's been mentioned that large framed cattle do not finish as well on grass as do smaller framed cattle. I've heard recommendations of choosing cattle with a frame score of no higher than a 4. The idea being that as an animal gets bigger, it's maintenace requirment increases (rumen size). More of the forage in the rumen goes to maintenance versus growth and finishing. For those in the grass finishing business, does this make sense and if so, what smaller framed breeds produce the better marbling on grass? My original plan was to take Beefmaster cows and breed them to smaller framed Angus bull in an effort to draw down the Beefmaster frame but keep a good portion of their genetics.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I'd say grass finish type cattle are defined more by their overall appearance than by a definitive frame size. An animal can be small framed and slab sided-their has to be some capacity to take in enough forage to gain on. if it was economically feasable it's way easier to get a finih on a two year old-in fact that's what we eat ourselves. Think of how easy a two year old dry heifer fleshes up.

 

[RobertMac]

Interesting replies! Thanks!

Genetics has been mentioned has a serious consideration. My experience has been primarily with Brangus, Angus and Beefmaster; private treaty sales and the salebarn. The grass fed/finishing will be a new venture. It's been mentioned that large framed cattle do not finish as well on grass as do smaller framed cattle. I've heard recommendations of choosing cattle with a frame score of no higher than a 4. The idea being that as an animal gets bigger, it's maintenace requirment increases (rumen size). More of the forage in the rumen goes to maintenance versus growth and finishing. For those in the grass finishing business, does this make sense and if so, what smaller framed breeds produce the better marbling on grass? My original plan was to take Beefmaster cows and breed them to smaller framed Angus bull in an effort to draw down the Beefmaster frame but keep a good portion of their genetics.

Run up to CO. and buy a couple of bulls(and maybe a few females) from Dale Lasater at their annual sell Sept. 16. Made a big difference in my herd. More later...

 

[Grassfarmer]

Because of the amount of good discussion here about grass-fed beef, I am slowly starting to consider trying it to see how it might work.

One thing to avoid, I am guessing from some of the comments, is Holsteins. :wink: :shock: :lol:

Now somebody, (GF?) has mentioned that there are some types of grasses better suited than others for grass fattening.

Is there more advice out there on this part of the equation?

Edit - RM, you posted at the same time as I did - what do you mean by "dairy quality forages"? How mature can the forage be and still achieve a finish?

What works best species wise for us are meadow brome, orchard grass and any kind of clover/cicer milk vetch. Quack grass works up until July - fall grazing it's not good enough. The main thing is the management not the species. We need to have lush green grass in front of the cattle at all times which usually means a 3 pass system on our pastures. This is tough on pastures as they are never getting the chance to mature and reseed so we try to use a different block for fattening every year.
Robert Mac's comment about the fattening period being the same for grassfed as grainfed if the pastures are dairy quality may be true in the south but it isn't here. We have winter and can only graze dairy quality grass from May 10th to about October 20th normally.
Not sure how Per's alfalfa grazing would work for me either - isn't it way up about 18-22% protein? that's surely totally inappropriate in the final stages of fattening where the need is for energy?

No the plants we use don't "grade" them officially - only with their multi-generational experience of high quality Swiss butchering.
Their finished weight is on average 600lbs hanging and we don't get a big spread on weights - they are usually pretty tight to the average. They walk out of the field (no shrink) at 1000-1100lbs probably with a 1050lb average.

This is what I don't understand. We take em in usually at around 800 lbs. Live weight.

Our processor doesn't give us a hanging weight. But that's probably because I've never asked for a hanging weight. The last one we took in weighed in at 850, and he was 14 mo old. Finished processed, and in the boxes there was 510 lbs of meat. That's without the heart, liver, or soup bones, and everything is trimmed lean. So if your taking in an animal that weighs 1000-1100 lbs live weight, and hanging weight is only 600 lbs, how many lbs of actual meat is that animal actually producing?

420-440lbs of beef on average - but again that is influenced by how many bone in versus bone out cuts the customers want.

On the genetics front we have a breed that works really well for our conditions but they likely wouldn't work so well in hotter climes. Like NR I think it is more a type issue than a frame score issue. I look at it this way - if you breed the very best maternal type females you can (true maternal - foraging types not 1600lb embryo donor show "maternal" cows) the steer calves will be ideal for grass fattening.

Has anyone got a current feedlot cost of gain for their cattle in Canada - PC, NR? I'd be interested to do a cost calculation on grain versus grass finishing.

 

[the_jersey_lilly_2000]

Ok that still makes no sense to me. The only thing I can come up with is that there is way more fat that's trimmed away and discarded.

I understand some fat makes for good flavor. But if this is the case....what have you gained by getting them that fat?

Your goin in with an animal that weighs 150 to 250 more than what we are, and your comin out with about 70-90 lbs less meat.

 

[Ben H]

If you trim all fat from a grassfed cow and and a grain finished animal there is no advantage in health benefits to the consumer, all the health benefits, flavor etc. are in the fat. That's the difference in a "gourmet" product.

It didn't happen this year, but I would like to start with small grain crops and graze them prior to a seedhead formation to extend my finishing period later into the year. I would also like to try these no-grain corn variaties for later on. I was thinking of grazing corn this year, it was a good time not to do it, our summer was mild and wet. The grass didn't seem to go into the normal slump.

 

[Grassfarmer]

Ok that still makes no sense to me. The only thing I can come up with is that there is way more fat that's trimmed away and discarded.

I understand some fat makes for good flavor. But if this is the case....what have you gained by getting them that fat?

Your goin in with an animal that weighs 150 to 250 more than what we are, and your comin out with about 70-90 lbs less meat.

Don't quite understand your yields either JL my guess is they look higher than mine because the younger smaller cattle have less bone, gut and fat. What have I gained by adding the extra weight? my answer would be a beef quality that can only be achieved by the correct balance of maturity and also fat (both in terms of finish and marbling) Our customers certainly like the product.
At the end of the day I think we have to get away from the commodity mindset if we want to prosper by selling grass-fed beef direct to customer. Yield is not really a huge concern to me as we can set our price as high as we want and get no complaints if the customer is delighted with the product. We still price our beef really reasonable on price but I remember a guy in StockmanGrassfarmer that was selling beef of low yielding, 30 month Devon steers for an astronomical price - I think he was grossing $4-4500 per head with them. It really is a different kind of marketing than the conventional market and I think we need to learn that or we will forever be constrained by commodity thinking and trap ourselves into selling our beef for commodity price plus a small margin when it is worth way more than that.

 

[the_jersey_lilly_2000]

my answer would be a beef quality that can only be achieved by the correct balance of maturity and also fat (both in terms of finish and marbling) Our customers certainly like the product.

Maybe it hasta do with climate, growing season for grasses, maybe type of grasses? Who knows, but I disagree on your answer that quality can only be achieved by animals being the weight you do it. That may be the case in your area, but not throughout the beef industry. We have customers that are extremely satisfied as well. We eat it ourselves, and it's better than any steak you can buy, in the store, or at a resturant.

Somethin kinda funny a woman told me the other day about our beef. She said, "Oh my Gosh!!!! It's like a beef flavor explosion in your mouth" She went on to say that this is the first time they've ever tried "grass fed", and she's sold on it.

 

[RSL]

We have been pricing out feedlots and have found a couple with yardage around $0.32 per day and feed on top of that.
I have often thought that late seeded annuals would be a pretty good finishing diet on grassfed cattle. We have also looked at finishing cattle on native, but would be a bit hard pressed to do it in under 24 months based on calving season and the big white winter. We will move that way over time on a few cattle, but it is going to take some experimenting. :lol:

 

[RobertMac]

No the plants we use don't "grade" them officially - only with their multi-generational experience of high quality Swiss butchering.
Their finished weight is on average 600lbs hanging and we don't get a big spread on weights - they are usually pretty tight to the average. They walk out of the field (no shrink) at 1000-1100lbs probably with a 1050lb average.

This is what I don't understand. We take em in usually at around 800 lbs. Live weight.

Our processor doesn't give us a hanging weight. But that's probably because I've never asked for a hanging weight. The last one we took in weighed in at 850, and he was 14 mo old. Finished processed, and in the boxes there was 510 lbs of meat. That's without the heart, liver, or soup bones, and everything is trimmed lean. So if your taking in an animal that weighs 1000-1100 lbs live weight, and hanging weight is only 600 lbs, how many lbs of actual meat is that animal actually producing?

Rough rule of thumb...
carcass weight is about 60% of live weight
meat weight is about 60% of carcass weight

This will put you in the ball park with your figures...regardless of where they are raised or what they are fed. Good beef animals can/will be slightly above...dairy type and cows can/will be below.

 

[RobertMac]

Because of the amount of good discussion here about grass-fed beef, I am slowly starting to consider trying it to see how it might work.

One thing to avoid, I am guessing from some of the comments, is Holsteins. :wink: :shock: :lol:

Now somebody, (GF?) has mentioned that there are some types of grasses better suited than others for grass fattening.

Is there more advice out there on this part of the equation?

Edit - RM, you posted at the same time as I did - what do you mean by "dairy quality forages"? How mature can the forage be and still achieve a finish?

Down here dairy quality in winter would be a mix of cool season annuals (rye, ryegrass, oats, wheat...) and legumes (white, red, crimson clovers). In spring/early summer, warm season perennials work until temperatures get up and these lignify. White clover doesn't lignify, but will need irrigation to maintain growing through summer. Mid/late summer and fall....crabgrass, sudan, sorghum/sudan cross, grazing corn...which will get you back to the cool season annuals. There are other mix other varieties that can be used. I don't mention cool season perennials because I'm below there region, but a lot can be done with these year round...especial with good legume complex.

The younger the plants, the higher the protein...the more physiologically mature the plants, the high the energy.

It is not an uncomplicated matter to develop a good forage chain to finish at feedlot speeds, but I feel sure it can be done. Auburn did studies on winter annuals that had their top steer gaining over 5 lbs/day...40% gaining over 4 lbs/day.

I haven't read Allan's book Ben recommended, but I know Allan and have read enough of his writings to know it will be a good resource.