That's why I like to loosely line breed cattle and then outcross to a like sire. Keeps them consistent with few surprises. However I'm also the one that will grab that young bull in the AI stud that I think may be special and try him on a variety of cows. And in my mind if he is a good bull he will stamp those calves with a similar trait regardless of the cow. Maybe wrong in some peoples eyes but in some herds you can pick out calves from certain bulls. My chisum calves are among the best here and all have a certain look to the from different cow lines. I think the Bennett Total bull stamps his calves with a look especially the females when they are mature.
Heifer Bull
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Bennet Total is a bull I have been interested in and have recommended
some that ask my opinion as a bull I would use. I haven't seen mature
females out of him tho, so I am happy to read that you are satisfied
with them. Do you have any photos of them to share here?
some that ask my opinion as a bull I would use. I haven't seen mature
females out of him tho, so I am happy to read that you are satisfied
with them. Do you have any photos of them to share here?
I just bred about 5 for a friend of mine. I should be breeding some more in a few days. I will try to take some pics when I am there if they are close. I have only used Total last yr myself after seeing the heifers of my friends. They are moderate sized good milking and seem to flesh well and raise competitive calves at weaning time. I will also add he seems to be consistent with his birthweights and his calves are very vigorous once on the ground. I was fortunate enough to be on hand while one of mine were born and seen the desire to get up and get going first hand. I feel like Totals strengths lie in his females haven't seen an AI stud pick up a t
Total son yet. I have also seen several sons tested,while they will gain they just aren't the top end bulls. I done a tight line breeding on 8180 (by accident pulled wrong straw out) by way of 004 x Sitz Alliance back to Total. But should work and be an excellent heifer bull,due to the dams side being pure calving ease for several generations ;-)
Total son yet. I have also seen several sons tested,while they will gain they just aren't the top end bulls. I done a tight line breeding on 8180 (by accident pulled wrong straw out) by way of 004 x Sitz Alliance back to Total. But should work and be an excellent heifer bull,due to the dams side being pure calving ease for several generations ;-)
gcreekrch
Well-known member
AGN said:
My take on that is 50+ years ago, cattle were still generally genetically made to calve easy. A lot of "improvements" made since then have created bloodlines that aren't exactly what you would call heifer friendly.
Personally, I would much rather have a heifer calve completely unassisted and sacrifice a little growth in that first year's production.
cowboyup
Well-known member
The trouble I have with the idea of heifer bulls is that they are taken on into the bull battery and continued being used on cows. If you have good heifers they should be able to have good calves and continue good average genetics. I calve mostly out and choose bulls that are in the 3.0 epd birthweight average. I rarely have to assist in calving other than when there is a leg back. One of the worst years I had was when I calved a bunch of heifers bred to a mytty in focus bull. I had to pull close to 30% but felt it was more a problem with not being able to have them out on pasture where they could get lots of exercise than it was with the bull. Maybe management of heifers is almost as important as the bulls you use sometimes.
littlejoe
Well-known member
A point I havn't seen made is the fact that if you're doing it right, your heifers are the best--or potentially the best--females you own.
littlejoe said:
Not if your bull buying decisions have been poor.We all hope the next generation to be better but what part of them better,performance,mothering ability,udders the list is endless. I think most Ranchers would profit from saving bulls from what they deem as the perfect cow I bet she's not great at one thing but real good at alot.Now breed the son of her to your other best cows and watch the progress. Your not progressing chaseing bull sales all over Canada and The USA hopeing for something that really is'nt there anyhow. At the end of the day we can only squeeze so much out of a cow and the land she stands on.
I guess my definiton of a "Heifer Bull" would be the one I just sold. He is a Balancer with a BW EPD of -2.8. His Gelbvieh mother has a CED EPD of 112. His Angus sire has a CED EPD of 9. He weighed 77lbs at birth, his sire weighed 75 and has NEVER thrown a calf over 80lbs with any cow.
He weighed 1000lbs at 1yr and will probably never get over 1600lbs. He will throw small calves out of heifers that are not Corriente,Jersey, or Longhorn marginally saleable dinks. His calves will most likely wean in the mid to high 5's as he did and as a great number of his 1/2 sibs have.
Would I want him for a terminal bull. Probably not but he will do the job he was bred for. And for what it's worth his PAP score is a 40 so he can be a "Heifer Bull" anywhere in Colorado.
He weighed 1000lbs at 1yr and will probably never get over 1600lbs. He will throw small calves out of heifers that are not Corriente,Jersey, or Longhorn marginally saleable dinks. His calves will most likely wean in the mid to high 5's as he did and as a great number of his 1/2 sibs have.
Would I want him for a terminal bull. Probably not but he will do the job he was bred for. And for what it's worth his PAP score is a 40 so he can be a "Heifer Bull" anywhere in Colorado.
A Throwaway breeding on heifers and the long generation interval problem is a real one for the industry, when our protein competition is much faster at changing their product. We keep all our replacements off young cows, but we try to deal with groups of cattle, rather than individuals. In other words 1 good cow, does not make a cow herd. It also gives us flexibility to breed our cows however we want and run fewer pasture groups, improving our grass management.
Our current "heifer bull" is an AN sire.
His performance data is good.
Birth Wt: 63
Birth Rank: 192/202
Birth Ratio: 81
Adj. WW: 744
WW Rank: 25/101
WW Ratio: 107
Adj. YW: 1270
YW Rank: 6/83
YW Ratio: 116
Life Ratio: 110
And his EPD are OK, and I think pretty balanced for us (on the very upper limit for milk).
BW -0.1 WW+47 YW+85 Milk+26 CE+12.0 MCE+9.0 REA+0.05 CWT+13 Marbling+0.20 Fat+0.019
He also scanned pretty well, and was a bit fatter than his contemporaries. This is important for us as we push cows pretty hard and want easy fleshing females. We correct the yield issues in our cow herd by using continental bulls.
The one good thing about going slow is that it takes longer to screw up, and the faster we go the more definite and balanced our goals have to be.
Our current "heifer bull" is an AN sire.
His performance data is good.
Birth Wt: 63
Birth Rank: 192/202
Birth Ratio: 81
Adj. WW: 744
WW Rank: 25/101
WW Ratio: 107
Adj. YW: 1270
YW Rank: 6/83
YW Ratio: 116
Life Ratio: 110
And his EPD are OK, and I think pretty balanced for us (on the very upper limit for milk).
BW -0.1 WW+47 YW+85 Milk+26 CE+12.0 MCE+9.0 REA+0.05 CWT+13 Marbling+0.20 Fat+0.019
He also scanned pretty well, and was a bit fatter than his contemporaries. This is important for us as we push cows pretty hard and want easy fleshing females. We correct the yield issues in our cow herd by using continental bulls.
The one good thing about going slow is that it takes longer to screw up, and the faster we go the more definite and balanced our goals have to be.
The theory that your best cows are the newest genetics is turning out incorrect for many. Depreciation is a huge cost and being able to tap into the longevity that old cows can have has a lot of value in the long run.
A lot of heifers conk out because they have been bred to the latest EPD wonder and are raising more calf then they can handle in some situations.
A lot of heifers conk out because they have been bred to the latest EPD wonder and are raising more calf then they can handle in some situations.
@ Angus62 explain your last statement please. How can a heifer "raise" more calf than she can handle? Now mind you in my mind if they "raise" the calf they completed their job. But to "raise" a calf is to complete the job fully to its potential.
@RSL looks like your on the right track and have a complete bull for your needs.
@RSL looks like your on the right track and have a complete bull for your needs.
A hiefer might raise more calf than she can handle in that it will take so much from her that she will not be able to maintain herself or breed back.
You need a balanced approach to your total expierence. You need cattle that will breed back and produce on a long term basis. The biggest problem I have is in keeping cattle that are to old. Some of the old girls make the cattle experience so pleasurable it is easy to keep them around till they can't maintain both themselves and their calf.
You need a balanced approach to your total expierence. You need cattle that will breed back and produce on a long term basis. The biggest problem I have is in keeping cattle that are to old. Some of the old girls make the cattle experience so pleasurable it is easy to keep them around till they can't maintain both themselves and their calf.
andybob
Well-known member
What seedstock breeders need to remember, is that commercial ranchers need "middle of the road" cattle for their main breeding herds, no extremes, fertile easy calving etc. The use of high performance bulls in a terminal program would be managed around older cows, with appropriate supervision if heavier calves are expected. Two examples were; an arable farmer in Rhodesia using medium framed Mashona/Angus cows to graze leys and crop residues used a synchronised AI program to controll the calving season for his terminal Charolais calves, the F1 generation were bought in in calf to medium framed Simmental (I can look up the details in my notes if anyone would like to know more about his system) His main line was the arable farm, so the cattle had to be fitted into the short "quiet" season between summer and winter crops.
The second, a 2000 head beef herd split season breeding rotational cross Brahman/Red Angus/Simmental main breeding to AI, with Sussex and Simbra clean up bulls. About 25% of the older cows bred to high index Charolais for the on farm feedlot, all cows calved in planted Cenchrus Cilliaris pastures next to the owners and managers houses, very few needed pullin despite the herd being mostly medium framed. Both these herds used easy care damlines, but made limited provision for the calving of the terminal calves.
The second, a 2000 head beef herd split season breeding rotational cross Brahman/Red Angus/Simmental main breeding to AI, with Sussex and Simbra clean up bulls. About 25% of the older cows bred to high index Charolais for the on farm feedlot, all cows calved in planted Cenchrus Cilliaris pastures next to the owners and managers houses, very few needed pullin despite the herd being mostly medium framed. Both these herds used easy care damlines, but made limited provision for the calving of the terminal calves.
millermlar
Member
I'm new and gonna kick a hornets nest I'm sure, but just can't help myself! 
A heifer bull, to me, is one that is going to throw smaller calves but not calves that are so measly that they can't pick up and grow after they are out of the confinement of the womb.
Having been pregnant 3 times myself, I maybe give the cows a little extra pampering, too. Why couldn't your heifer bull be the bull to use on your older cows, too? Just because my first baby was 6 lb 8 oz doesn't mean that I was okay having a 10 pounder the next time around! (which I didn't but just sayin'...)
There have been a lot of good points brought up in this thread. Now here's my kick for the nest....heifer and cow bull - "old" Lowline genetics.
A heifer bull, to me, is one that is going to throw smaller calves but not calves that are so measly that they can't pick up and grow after they are out of the confinement of the womb.
Having been pregnant 3 times myself, I maybe give the cows a little extra pampering, too. Why couldn't your heifer bull be the bull to use on your older cows, too? Just because my first baby was 6 lb 8 oz doesn't mean that I was okay having a 10 pounder the next time around! (which I didn't but just sayin'...)
There have been a lot of good points brought up in this thread. Now here's my kick for the nest....heifer and cow bull - "old" Lowline genetics.
andybob
Well-known member
Millarmlar;We have the largest herd of pure native or heritage Aberdeen Angus and Hereford cattle in the world where I manage at present. For temprate climates they are ideal low maintenace cattle that need no subsidised feeding, calf outside (the larger framed cattle are wintered indoors in winter, often untill after calving), and need little attention outside of moving them between paddocks. The downside is their size, but we market them at a premium (grass fed/organic) through the on farm plant which covers the extra labour in cutting and packing.
With my own herd in Africa, I aimed for hest tolerance, fertility and adapation to environment, the harsh environment dictated the size of the herd, so they remained "middle of the road", too big couldn't maintain breeding condition in a drought, so were culled as non breeders (never supplimented) too small coudn't cover the ground to forage. All the bulls were "heifer bulls" as small calves are an important feature of all Sanga breeds of cattle, and more importantly, they are up and active straight away, thousanda of years of evolving in high predator environments have fixed this and other survival traits.
With my own herd in Africa, I aimed for hest tolerance, fertility and adapation to environment, the harsh environment dictated the size of the herd, so they remained "middle of the road", too big couldn't maintain breeding condition in a drought, so were culled as non breeders (never supplimented) too small coudn't cover the ground to forage. All the bulls were "heifer bulls" as small calves are an important feature of all Sanga breeds of cattle, and more importantly, they are up and active straight away, thousanda of years of evolving in high predator environments have fixed this and other survival traits.
millermlar
Member
andybob:
Africa? And England. Wow. I've been all over the lower 48 states of the US, but never crossed a border. Have a whole list of places I want to travel to, though!
Thought it interesting about you post. Had a vet in Idaho order some semen this year from our bull, Power. She was originally from England. My saying is, "Because you don't eat the legs anyway and they are really expensive to feed." She said it was so different for her in the US because people wanted tall, lanky cattle, but in England they wanted short and stocky (we have short and stocky). I am going to check out your site!
Haven't set up a sig line yet, so our website is www.millermlar.com
Africa? And England. Wow. I've been all over the lower 48 states of the US, but never crossed a border. Have a whole list of places I want to travel to, though!
Thought it interesting about you post. Had a vet in Idaho order some semen this year from our bull, Power. She was originally from England. My saying is, "Because you don't eat the legs anyway and they are really expensive to feed." She said it was so different for her in the US because people wanted tall, lanky cattle, but in England they wanted short and stocky (we have short and stocky). I am going to check out your site!
Haven't set up a sig line yet, so our website is www.millermlar.com
andybob
Well-known member
Millermlar, just to add to the continents, I lived in North Carolina for 5 1/2 years, had a great time, and started up a new herd of my own, sorry to have had to leave, made many wonderfull friends.
Will check your site this evening.
Will check your site this evening.
