Red Bull Breeder
Member
I think er herf is saying that polled bull are apt to have a lazy prepuse novatech. I think there might be something to what he says.
hereford bulls...horned or polled
- Thread starter Justin
- Start date
scout
Well-known member
as far your red calves go this year out of 31 fall calvers we had to 2 red neck calves and thats with 12 baldies in the bunch and 1 set of horns and thats on a red neck calf one sire is horned and I know he breeds more than one cow a year. just something to put under your hat I know your numbers are proably alot more than that.Justin said:WyomingRancher said:I've got a quick question Justin, what are you specifically hoping to improve in your herd by changing sire breed? Would you want to keep heifers out of this cross?
We all know there can be big benefits to crossbreeding, and I definitely utilize those perks in this herd. Just looking at your cattle pics, they sure look like a solid bunch of cattle the way they are. Not saying improvements can't always be made in any herd, I'm just curious what you'd like to see different in your cattle.
thanks WR, but i only post pics of the good ones :wink: and i've been asking myself why fix something that isn't broke? i'm in no way saying that there aren't any improvement to be made in my herd because there are. but at the same time, i've been pretty happy with performance. trying to do to much can sometimes backfire. but to answer your question, replacement is my #1 priority as it always as been. so i guess having some of those good ol black baldy mommas would rank #1. and adding a few pounds to the steers is always welcomed
Justin
Well-known member
novatech said:What is your end goal? What is your buyer willing to pay the most for? Are you going to sell F1 replacements or terminals?Justin said:WyomingRancher said:I've got a quick question Justin, what are you specifically hoping to improve in your herd by changing sire breed? Would you want to keep heifers out of this cross?
We all know there can be big benefits to crossbreeding, and I definitely utilize those perks in this herd. Just looking at your cattle pics, they sure look like a solid bunch of cattle the way they are. Not saying improvements can't always be made in any herd, I'm just curious what you'd like to see different in your cattle
thanks WR, but i only post pics of the good ones :wink: and i've been asking myself why fix something that isn't broke? i'm in no way saying that there aren't any improvement to be made in my herd because there are. but at the same time, i've been pretty happy with performance. trying to do to much can sometimes backfire. but to answer your question, replacement is my #1 priority as it always as been. so i guess having some of those good ol black baldy mommas would rank #1. and adding a few pounds to the steers is always welcomed
Make yourself a list of questions. Answer them. Then formulate a plan on how to get there. Or you can be indecisive and just go around in circles.
As far as horned/poled I have herd more old wives tales on here than one could have ever imagined. At one time the poled cattle had a fairly small gene pool to chose from. This is no longer true. Figure out what you need that will complement your herd the most. Forget about what is growing out the top of their head and go for it.
If you decide you are going to sell replacement heifers I would lean toward the poles. It gives your buyer more assurance of no horns. If you are going to sell terminals then it really makes no difference as you already have primarily Angus so the odds of horns are limited. If you don't mind dehorning a few then who cares.
novatech..go back and read my response to WR, slower this time if you have to. replacement females to go back into my herd is the first priority
novatech
Member
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a much larger selection with the horned. I know of several people that have poled and do not have any breeding problem as far as the bull is concerned. No lazy prepuce or bad sheath. I have seen individual bulls of many breeds. I will certainly not criticize the entire breed for individual faults.Red Bull Breeder said:
The big issue around here (wives tale) was the head was to big so you will have more birthing problems. Then it was the shoulders.
I raise mainly registered Brahman. I have to listen to all the garbage about them being wild and crazy, tuff stringy meat and a whole boat load of other criticism from people.
My second line of cattle is F1 Brafords. So I have to do the research on the Hereford genetics I want to use. After all the paper study/research the most important thing is to talk to people that have used those specific genetics. After having done this I can tell you that the only thing for sure is that poled cattle don't have horns. They are individuals and should be criticized individually.
The horned Herefords around here are mostly long and buttles. The poled are thicker but lack length. So I have to go the the semen catalogs and the telephone.
novatech
Member
Justin said:
Sorry about that.roger dodger
Well-known member
Brian, very good post and well said.
BMR, I see your pc was working like mine.
But going into a F1 breeding program I don't think you are giving up any performance. I just can't see adding a trait you don't want or need into your gene pool.
Justin, Sounds like you are taking some time and putting a lot of thought into your decision. Glad to see it, just keep an open mind and look at it from all sides. Anything one can do to make a buck.
BMR, I see your pc was working like mine.
But going into a F1 breeding program I don't think you are giving up any performance. I just can't see adding a trait you don't want or need into your gene pool.
Justin, Sounds like you are taking some time and putting a lot of thought into your decision. Glad to see it, just keep an open mind and look at it from all sides. Anything one can do to make a buck.
Doug Thorson
Well-known member
Because some people will sell their soul right along with a bull. Having something for everyone means you have no plan or program. I run a set of cows that are what I honestly feel are the best type straight herefords and then I run them in a way so that the offspring are a true test to what the genetics can do. That way I can sell any bull that I have to any customer and look them in the eye and say "you got a good one" I will not change the way I operate just to sell more bulls or to broaden my customer base through the use of genetics that I don't feel will work for every customer. My feelings come from personal observation along with talking to several other ranchers who had similar expieriences, just to make sure my observations weren't wrong due to limited numbers.
Even with the weather we had last year, all my sale bulls were born outside because if I touch them for any reason other to tag and weigh, they are terminal.
nortexsook
Well-known member
>>Because some people will sell their soul right along with a bull. Having something for everyone means you have no plan or program. I run a set of cows that are what I honestly feel are the best type straight herefords and then I run them in a way so that the offspring are a true test to what the genetics can do. That way I can sell any bull that I have to any customer and look them in the eye and say "you got a good one" I will not change the way I operate just to sell more bulls or to broaden my customer base through the use of genetics that I don't feel will work for every customer. My feelings come from personal observation along with talking to several other ranchers who had similar expieriences, just to make sure my observations weren't wrong due to limited numbers.
Even with the weather we had last year, all my sale bulls were born outside because if I touch them for any reason other to tag and weigh, they are terminal.<<
We need more breeders like this!
Even with the weather we had last year, all my sale bulls were born outside because if I touch them for any reason other to tag and weigh, they are terminal.<<
We need more breeders like this!
Larrry
Well-known member
The big reason that you find breeders going to the polled is the "PETA Fear Factor"
Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered.
Penile deviation is a common cause of copulatory failure in bulls. Two types of penile deviation are described— premature spiral deviation of the penis (corkscrew penis) and ventral deviation of the penis. Both conditions are caused by insufficiency of the dorsal apical ligament of the penis. Trauma is rarely involved. Premature spiral deviation of the penis is the most common penile defect in polled beef bulls and has been reported in most beef and dairy breeds. Spiral deviation is abnormal when it occurs prematurely and prevents intromission on more than one occasion. In affected bulls, the condition can be mild to severe, and premature spiral deviations of the penis may range from <25% to >75% of all services attempted. This may occur within one mating season or over several seasons. Most affected bulls develop the defect between 3 and 6 yr of age. In ventral deviation of the penis, the free part of the penis curves downward and prevents intromission. Deviations of the penis are diagnosed by careful observation of bulls at the time of service or during test mating. Surgical correction can be done, but should not be performed if inheritance is possible.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110200.htm
Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered.
Penile deviation is a common cause of copulatory failure in bulls. Two types of penile deviation are described— premature spiral deviation of the penis (corkscrew penis) and ventral deviation of the penis. Both conditions are caused by insufficiency of the dorsal apical ligament of the penis. Trauma is rarely involved. Premature spiral deviation of the penis is the most common penile defect in polled beef bulls and has been reported in most beef and dairy breeds. Spiral deviation is abnormal when it occurs prematurely and prevents intromission on more than one occasion. In affected bulls, the condition can be mild to severe, and premature spiral deviations of the penis may range from <25% to >75% of all services attempted. This may occur within one mating season or over several seasons. Most affected bulls develop the defect between 3 and 6 yr of age. In ventral deviation of the penis, the free part of the penis curves downward and prevents intromission. Deviations of the penis are diagnosed by careful observation of bulls at the time of service or during test mating. Surgical correction can be done, but should not be performed if inheritance is possible.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110200.htm
Larrry
Well-known member
The big reason that you find breeders going to the polled is the "PETA Fear Factor"
Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered.
Penile deviation is a common cause of copulatory failure in bulls. Two types of penile deviation are described— premature spiral deviation of the penis (corkscrew penis) and ventral deviation of the penis. Both conditions are caused by insufficiency of the dorsal apical ligament of the penis. Trauma is rarely involved. Premature spiral deviation of the penis is the most common penile defect in polled beef bulls and has been reported in most beef and dairy breeds. Spiral deviation is abnormal when it occurs prematurely and prevents intromission on more than one occasion. In affected bulls, the condition can be mild to severe, and premature spiral deviations of the penis may range from <25% to >75% of all services attempted. This may occur within one mating season or over several seasons. Most affected bulls develop the defect between 3 and 6 yr of age. In ventral deviation of the penis, the free part of the penis curves downward and prevents intromission. Deviations of the penis are diagnosed by careful observation of bulls at the time of service or during test mating. Surgical correction can be done, but should not be performed if inheritance is possible.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110200.htm
Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered.
Penile deviation is a common cause of copulatory failure in bulls. Two types of penile deviation are described— premature spiral deviation of the penis (corkscrew penis) and ventral deviation of the penis. Both conditions are caused by insufficiency of the dorsal apical ligament of the penis. Trauma is rarely involved. Premature spiral deviation of the penis is the most common penile defect in polled beef bulls and has been reported in most beef and dairy breeds. Spiral deviation is abnormal when it occurs prematurely and prevents intromission on more than one occasion. In affected bulls, the condition can be mild to severe, and premature spiral deviations of the penis may range from <25% to >75% of all services attempted. This may occur within one mating season or over several seasons. Most affected bulls develop the defect between 3 and 6 yr of age. In ventral deviation of the penis, the free part of the penis curves downward and prevents intromission. Deviations of the penis are diagnosed by careful observation of bulls at the time of service or during test mating. Surgical correction can be done, but should not be performed if inheritance is possible.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110200.htm
Larrry
Well-known member
The big reason that you find breeders going to the polled is the "PETA Fear Factor"
Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered.
Penile deviation is a common cause of copulatory failure in bulls. Two types of penile deviation are described— premature spiral deviation of the penis (corkscrew penis) and ventral deviation of the penis. Both conditions are caused by insufficiency of the dorsal apical ligament of the penis. Trauma is rarely involved. Premature spiral deviation of the penis is the most common penile defect in polled beef bulls and has been reported in most beef and dairy breeds. Spiral deviation is abnormal when it occurs prematurely and prevents intromission on more than one occasion. In affected bulls, the condition can be mild to severe, and premature spiral deviations of the penis may range from <25% to >75% of all services attempted. This may occur within one mating season or over several seasons. Most affected bulls develop the defect between 3 and 6 yr of age. In ventral deviation of the penis, the free part of the penis curves downward and prevents intromission. Deviations of the penis are diagnosed by careful observation of bulls at the time of service or during test mating. Surgical correction can be done, but should not be performed if inheritance is possible.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110200.htm
Prolapse of the prepuce is a common defect in bulls, particularly in Bos indicus cattle. In B taurus cattle, it is common in polled beef breeds. A long, pendulous sheath, a large preputial orifice, and absence or poor development of the retractor prepuce muscles are predisposing inherited anatomic abnormalities. Prolapse of the prepuce predisposes the animal to injury, which can lead to abscess formation, scarring, adhesions, or phimosis. Surgical correction of the prolapse is possible, but as genetic predisposition may play a role, castration should be carefully considered.
Penile deviation is a common cause of copulatory failure in bulls. Two types of penile deviation are described— premature spiral deviation of the penis (corkscrew penis) and ventral deviation of the penis. Both conditions are caused by insufficiency of the dorsal apical ligament of the penis. Trauma is rarely involved. Premature spiral deviation of the penis is the most common penile defect in polled beef bulls and has been reported in most beef and dairy breeds. Spiral deviation is abnormal when it occurs prematurely and prevents intromission on more than one occasion. In affected bulls, the condition can be mild to severe, and premature spiral deviations of the penis may range from <25% to >75% of all services attempted. This may occur within one mating season or over several seasons. Most affected bulls develop the defect between 3 and 6 yr of age. In ventral deviation of the penis, the free part of the penis curves downward and prevents intromission. Deviations of the penis are diagnosed by careful observation of bulls at the time of service or during test mating. Surgical correction can be done, but should not be performed if inheritance is possible.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/110200.htm
Soapweed
Well-known member
If I were to ever use Hereford bulls on Angus cows, whether they were polled or horned wouldn't matter as much as whether or not they had pigment
around their eyes. Here is what can happen without pigment, even on black baldies. Often times, if the eyes have pigment so do the udders, and that is
very important after a spring snow followed by bright sunny days. It is no fun tying up cows with sunburned teats to keep their calves from getting kicked off
and starving to death.
This cow's eye is going bad. At preg checking time in mid October this wasn't an apparent problem, and it has all come on since then.
Now she is within about three months of calving so she will stay around until then.
She is ten years old, coming eleven in the spring. She has raised a calf every year since she was a two-year-old,
so she probably doesn't owe us anything. Nevertheless, I wish I'd have cashed in on her salvage value before this happened.
Note also the white teats, which have the possibility of getting sunburned.
around their eyes. Here is what can happen without pigment, even on black baldies. Often times, if the eyes have pigment so do the udders, and that is
very important after a spring snow followed by bright sunny days. It is no fun tying up cows with sunburned teats to keep their calves from getting kicked off
and starving to death.
This cow's eye is going bad. At preg checking time in mid October this wasn't an apparent problem, and it has all come on since then.
Now she is within about three months of calving so she will stay around until then.
She is ten years old, coming eleven in the spring. She has raised a calf every year since she was a two-year-old,
so she probably doesn't owe us anything. Nevertheless, I wish I'd have cashed in on her salvage value before this happened.
Note also the white teats, which have the possibility of getting sunburned.
Hereford76
Well-known member
pigment is a funny thing in herefords - I've always believed that if a hereford bull has pigment in their snout his daughters would have it in their teats. that cow has pigment in her nose and not much in her eyes or teats by the looks of her.
looks like its too late for any salvage on her?
looks like its too late for any salvage on her?
Soapweed
Well-known member
Hereford76 said:
Probably, but hopefully her calf will be worth the feed that goes into her from here on out. Proper placement of pigment is pretty important.
Big Swede
Well-known member
Justin, when I found Ranchers.net my very first post was a question much like yours was. Everything you read tells us that crossbreeding is the only free lunch in the cattle industry and not using it is a big mistake. Finding not only the right breed but also the right bulls is a risk and a task that if you screw up you have set yourself back at least 5 years. You don't know what you have until the F1's have had a few calves. I don't know the answer. The latest article I read said that feeders want at least 25% but no more than 50% Continental breeding in the calves they buy to feed. That statement right there knocks Hereford out of the equation unless you go to a 3 way cross. Breeding Hereford Angus females to a Continental bull would give you the most heterosis but then you need two different breeding programs and it begins to get complicated.
Why don't you try it and let me know how it goes. Until then I guess I'll keep breeding straight Angus. I'll let you make the mistakes. :wink:
Why don't you try it and let me know how it goes. Until then I guess I'll keep breeding straight Angus. I'll let you make the mistakes. :wink:
Grassfarmer
Well-known member
Big Swede said:
I guess it knocks out all the straight Angus breeding too then :???: :wink: :lol:
There was a very interesting article on hybrid vigor in Jim Lents recent Lamplighter newsletter.
WyomingRancher
Well-known member
Big Swede said:
That's why the Balancer is a good choice :wink:
.Doug Thorson
Well-known member
You know Swede, you can find an article that says any breed or cross is the greatest in the world. I know a feeder that will not buy anything but holstein steers, works for him and he is a very smart individual, but I doubt the beef industry wants to follow him. I also resd an article saying Char x calves were going to be discounted starting last year and in a few years there would be no more Char breeders, but the results I have seen through the local sale barn have shot that down, at least for now.
The only way I can see to make more money than your neighbor is to have cows that do more on less, and that is achieved through heterosis. If you want to raise calves that bring an extra 50$ head in the fall, how do you do it? You can calf earlier and spend 45$ more on the cow. That might net you 5$ if you don't lose any extra calves or even any ears. You can spend $$$$$$$ on genetics that might outgain what everyone else is doing, but what do you do when your cows all weigh 1800#? Or maybe you buy your replacements, but because they cost so much you make excuses to keep the poor ones around so you don't have to buy so many.
There is another way, keep cows that run themselves cheaper and raise more calf. That is achieved through crossbreeding the best to the best, the most efficient to the most efficient, and when you do that you have a cow herd that raises 20+ extra pounds on 20$ less per year. Then you have a situation where you can actually make 50$ per head over most people.
The only way I can see to make more money than your neighbor is to have cows that do more on less, and that is achieved through heterosis. If you want to raise calves that bring an extra 50$ head in the fall, how do you do it? You can calf earlier and spend 45$ more on the cow. That might net you 5$ if you don't lose any extra calves or even any ears. You can spend $$$$$$$ on genetics that might outgain what everyone else is doing, but what do you do when your cows all weigh 1800#? Or maybe you buy your replacements, but because they cost so much you make excuses to keep the poor ones around so you don't have to buy so many.
There is another way, keep cows that run themselves cheaper and raise more calf. That is achieved through crossbreeding the best to the best, the most efficient to the most efficient, and when you do that you have a cow herd that raises 20+ extra pounds on 20$ less per year. Then you have a situation where you can actually make 50$ per head over most people.
scout
Well-known member
justin what soapweed said about pigment is more important than horned or polled is absoultely true both are hereford bulls have pigment around the eyes and there scrotums are pigmented and 85% of are calves carry those traits . even though sun burnt udders aren't a issue in this country because the cows are standing in the creek in the summer due to the endofyte in the the fescue around here
Doug Thorson
Well-known member
Soapweed, what have your observations been about sunburned udders? I feel tight udder attachment basically eliminates the problem. I have never had a cow that I had to treat from sunburn, but I have been close on some big sloppy bag cows. They stood only because they knew they should so about another 1/2 day of sunshine would have caused a wreck. The cows that were tight bagged and small teats seemed to be ok.
ps I do breed for pigment on both udders and eyes.
ps I do breed for pigment on both udders and eyes.