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HEY BOYS

I shouldn't get in on this discussion, but will add my 2 cents. The Canadian ID doesn't mean much after the cattle or the beef crosses the border. Van Dyke never had any Canadian cattle in their feed lot. some most may have had tags, some may have been similiar to the Canadian tag. If the number of head at the kill matched the number that crossed the border, that was all that was checked.

Someone at Swift opened a gate to soon, cattle got mixed, the wrong ones were sorted back. No matching of tag numbers with carcuses. may not be required. About that time the inspector, or whoever came back from his coffee break and found the Canadian cattle with Van Dykes. Swift tried to pass the loss on to Van Dyke, he went public with it.

Swift and the USDA quized, badgered, accused, lied to, and brainwashed the Van Dykes, eventually the were convinced that they had bought canadian cattle and had fed them all summer.
 
Clarencen said:
I shouldn't get in on this discussion, but will add my 2 cents. The Canadian ID doesn't mean much after the cattle or the beef crosses the border. Van Dyke never had any Canadian cattle in their feed lot. some most may have had tags, some may have been similiar to the Canadian tag. If the number of head at the kill matched the number that crossed the border, that was all that was checked.

Someone at Swift opened a gate to soon, cattle got mixed, the wrong ones were sorted back. No matching of tag numbers with carcuses. may not be required. About that time the inspector, or whoever came back from his coffee break and found the Canadian cattle with Van Dykes. Swift tried to pass the loss on to Van Dyke, he went public with it.

Swift and the USDA quized, badgered, accused, lied to, and brainwashed the Van Dykes, eventually the were convinced that they had bought canadian cattle and had fed them all summer.

Clarencen, without further information that is credible, your explanation is as good as another.

One of the things all of the explanations will have in common is that Swift was able to put their problem onto a producer with no real cost to them. They were able to act as the judge, jury and executioner. They took power that did not belong to them and the outrage is minimal by other producers.

It is too bad most other producers can not see this common thread and be outraged of the power that Swift grabbed.
 
Econ, you fail to admit that, even if your scenario is what Swift TRIED to do, they ultimately FAILED. Van Dykes got their money.

Most farmers would have acted faster and more firmly than did the Van Dykes, who apparently did not keep records of where purchased cattle originated. In todays world, ID and recordkeeping is an absolute necessity, for the protection of the farmer/rancher.

FACT: if Swift did attempt a "power grab", they failed miserably in the end. Adverse publicity bailed out a farmer who apparently did not have records to back his purchase and subsequent sale of cattle.

Clarence, You most likely have hit very close to the real scenario creating this mess. Congratulations in not echoing 'blame the evil packer' cheerleaders.

MRJ
 
MRJ said:
Econ, you fail to admit that, even if your scenario is what Swift TRIED to do, they ultimately FAILED. Van Dykes got their money.

Most farmers would have acted faster and more firmly than did the Van Dykes, who apparently did not keep records of where purchased cattle originated. In todays world, ID and recordkeeping is an absolute necessity, for the protection of the farmer/rancher.

FACT: if Swift did attempt a "power grab", they failed miserably in the end. Adverse publicity bailed out a farmer who apparently did not have records to back his purchase and subsequent sale of cattle.

Clarence, You most likely have hit very close to the real scenario creating this mess. Congratulations in not echoing 'blame the evil packer' cheerleaders.

MRJ

Van Dyke's success sure wasn't with the help of the likes of you, MRJ.

Van Dyke had his sale barn records. You just can't get ANY of the facts straight if it doesn't fit your bias, can you?

Like I said, the ramifications to Swift did not come without A LOT of extra effort by Van Dyke (this time costs money and effort that could have been better spent on profitable ranching activities) and not as a result of packer apologists like you.
 
Econ101 said:
MRJ said:
Econ, you fail to admit that, even if your scenario is what Swift TRIED to do, they ultimately FAILED. Van Dykes got their money.

Most farmers would have acted faster and more firmly than did the Van Dykes, who apparently did not keep records of where purchased cattle originated. In todays world, ID and recordkeeping is an absolute necessity, for the protection of the farmer/rancher.

FACT: if Swift did attempt a "power grab", they failed miserably in the end. Adverse publicity bailed out a farmer who apparently did not have records to back his purchase and subsequent sale of cattle.

Clarence, You most likely have hit very close to the real scenario creating this mess. Congratulations in not echoing 'blame the evil packer' cheerleaders.

MRJ

Van Dyke's success sure wasn't with the help of the likes of you, MRJ.

Van Dyke had his sale barn records. You just can't get ANY of the facts straight if it doesn't fit your bias, can you?

Like I said, the ramifications to Swift did not come without A LOT of extra effort by Van Dyke (this time costs money and effort that could have been better spent on profitable ranching activities) and not as a result of packer apologists like you.
1. Did you verify the ORIGINAL sale barn records eCON?
2. or are you just taking Van Dykes word they exist?
3. Did those sale barn records say anything about the Canadian tags?
4. If the sale barn records say 7 black cattle what is saying it wasn't 7 other black cattle?
5. If these cattle were exported nine months earlier to a feedlot then sold through a sale barn why weren't they branded?
6. Why did the Health and export papers still in Canada not reflect a 9 month earlier export date for those numbers?
7. Why would Swift chance all of this bad publicity for the profits on 7 HEAD of cattle? :roll:
 
Econ101 said:
MRJ said:
Econ, you fail to admit that, even if your scenario is what Swift TRIED to do, they ultimately FAILED. Van Dykes got their money.

Most farmers would have acted faster and more firmly than did the Van Dykes, who apparently did not keep records of where purchased cattle originated. In todays world, ID and recordkeeping is an absolute necessity, for the protection of the farmer/rancher.

FACT: if Swift did attempt a "power grab", they failed miserably in the end. Adverse publicity bailed out a farmer who apparently did not have records to back his purchase and subsequent sale of cattle.

Clarence, You most likely have hit very close to the real scenario creating this mess. Congratulations in not echoing 'blame the evil packer' cheerleaders.

MRJ

Van Dyke's success sure wasn't with the help of the likes of you, MRJ.

Van Dyke had his sale barn records. You just can't get ANY of the facts straight if it doesn't fit your bias, can you?

Like I said, the ramifications to Swift did not come without A LOT of extra effort by Van Dyke (this time costs money and effort that could have been better spent on profitable ranching activities) and not as a result of packer apologists like you.

Econ, attack dogs like you ignore the facts. The FACT is that IF Swift was trying to cheat the Van Dykes, they FAILED!

They could as easily have simply made a mistake, as Clarence suggested, but you will never admit that, will you?

Did Van Dyke have ACCURATE records, with the numbers and tags proving he had Canadian cattle with the brand, CAN, as required by law? I

Or did he simply have the sale barn receipt for number of calves bought?

A good guess is that the time involved in solving the problem was far more costly to Swift than to the Van Dykes! The thought of a packer losing money that way should cheer you up.

MRJ
 
Tam, "2. or are you just taking Van Dykes word they exist?"

I think they're telling the truth.

Tam , "3. Did those sale barn records say anything about the Canadian tags?"

Silly question.

Tam, "5. If these cattle were exported nine months earlier to a feedlot then sold through a sale barn why weren't they branded?"

They didn't have to be.

Tam, "6. Why did the Health and export papers still in Canada not reflect a 9 month earlier export date for those numbers?"

There is a disagreement between dates.

Tam, "7. Why would Swift chance all of this bad publicity for the profits on 7 HEAD of cattle? "

They didn't. They were telling the truth until the USDA got involved.
 
MRJ, "Econ, attack dogs like you ignore the facts. The FACT is that IF Swift was trying to cheat the Van Dykes, they FAILED!"

They succeeded for 40 some days - until SDSGA made some noise. What if Van Dykes hadn't of went to them?

MRJ, "They could as easily have simply made a mistake, as Clarence suggested, but you will never admit that, will you?"

They could of, but they went to Van Dykes at first and claimed that they had accounted for all their Canadian cattle. That would mean they messed up twice; the first being a little mix up which certainly could of happened, the second being that after they knew they had a problem and investigated by matching their paperwork with the Canadian cattle on the premesis, they mistakenly accounted for everything they should have when they should not of been able to - which is very highly unlikely.

MRJ, "Did Van Dyke have ACCURATE records, with the numbers and tags proving he had Canadian cattle with the brand, CAN, as required by law?
Or did he simply have the sale barn receipt for number of calves bought?"

Van Dyke had all the paperwork required by law.

MRJ, "A good guess is that the time involved in solving the problem was far more costly to Swift than to the Van Dykes! The thought of a packer losing money that way should cheer you up."

A good guess is that Van Dykes are telling the truth and so was Swift in their inititial contact with them. The USDA's investigation revealed serious problems with their system and they instigated a coverup.
 
I hope we can keep this thread going, I don't care which side you take a stand for. We need a better explaination as to why this happened, and if someone is trying to cover up something.

I have no actual information ot this but I do believe that the Van Dykes were innocent victims. I can't see where they did anything wrong. They had the salebarn record where they bought those cattle and gave them to the USDa inspectors. That is all they needed to do. They finnaly got there money, but were made out to be liars. Now to many just think they should shut up.

There are some corrections that need to be made, it seemd Swift is the one with poor record keeping. This sort of thing could happen to any of us, even to Tam!
 
my feeling is that clarence has it about right. cattle got mixed up at swift, nobody took responsibility and so they started looking to blame somebody else and the van dyke's were handy. they were the scapegoat for swift and then they became useful to r-calf so they got used and abused by both sides.
 
MRJ said:
Econ101 said:
MRJ said:
Econ, you fail to admit that, even if your scenario is what Swift TRIED to do, they ultimately FAILED. Van Dykes got their money.

Most farmers would have acted faster and more firmly than did the Van Dykes, who apparently did not keep records of where purchased cattle originated. In todays world, ID and recordkeeping is an absolute necessity, for the protection of the farmer/rancher.

FACT: if Swift did attempt a "power grab", they failed miserably in the end. Adverse publicity bailed out a farmer who apparently did not have records to back his purchase and subsequent sale of cattle.

Clarence, You most likely have hit very close to the real scenario creating this mess. Congratulations in not echoing 'blame the evil packer' cheerleaders.

MRJ

Van Dyke's success sure wasn't with the help of the likes of you, MRJ.

Van Dyke had his sale barn records. You just can't get ANY of the facts straight if it doesn't fit your bias, can you?

Like I said, the ramifications to Swift did not come without A LOT of extra effort by Van Dyke (this time costs money and effort that could have been better spent on profitable ranching activities) and not as a result of packer apologists like you.

Econ, attack dogs like you ignore the facts. The FACT is that IF Swift was trying to cheat the Van Dykes, they FAILED!

They could as easily have simply made a mistake, as Clarence suggested, but you will never admit that, will you?

Did Van Dyke have ACCURATE records, with the numbers and tags proving he had Canadian cattle with the brand, CAN, as required by law? I

Or did he simply have the sale barn receipt for number of calves bought?

A good guess is that the time involved in solving the problem was far more costly to Swift than to the Van Dykes! The thought of a packer losing money that way should cheer you up.

MRJ

You have yet to chastise Swift for taking product and unilaterally not paying for that product. When will you and your organization ever stand up for the producer, MRJ? Did you just lose the producer part when you banded with the Swifts of the world?

The law is carried out through a process, not through unilateral actions. You have still not addressed this concern, and yet have continually offered excuses for Swift. When was your first sell out act, MRJ? Is it just easier and easier the more you do it?
 
don said:
my feeling is that clarence has it about right. cattle got mixed up at swift, nobody took responsibility and so they started looking to blame somebody else and the van dyke's were handy. they were the scapegoat for swift and then they became useful to r-calf so they got used and abused by both sides.

So then Swift screwed up AGAIN when they told Van Dykes that they had accounted for all the Canadian cattle they needed to? I don't buy that. When the problem was first discovered, logic says that Swift did some detective work and made sure all their Canadian cattle were where they were supposed to be before calling anybody. Logic says that should of been easy for them to do - all they had to do was match tags with the papers. Swift confirmed this when they initially contacted Van Dykes. What is illogicial is that, even after they checked all their Canadian cattle, they still didn't know who had what. Folks, that doesn't fly.
 
well then i guess you'll just have to prove your theory. trace those cattle and make liars out of usda and swift. if that's the case more power to you.
 
Sandhusker said:
Tam, "2. or are you just taking Van Dykes word they exist?"

I think they're telling the truth.

Tam , "3. Did those sale barn records say anything about the Canadian tags?"

Silly question.

Tam, "5. If these cattle were exported nine months earlier to a feedlot then sold through a sale barn why weren't they branded?"

They didn't have to be.

Tam, "6. Why did the Health and export papers still in Canada not reflect a 9 month earlier export date for those numbers?"

There is a disagreement between dates.

Tam, "7. Why would Swift chance all of this bad publicity for the profits on 7 HEAD of cattle? "

They didn't. They were telling the truth until the USDA got involved.


In todays' business climate, and until 'the law' requires permanent ID and tracking from birth to consumer plate, there is little chance that "I think they are telling the truth" is going to hold up whether in commerce, or in a court of law.

For the record, I too, belieev the Van Dykes have told the truth. Without verification and via records and ID, people simply "telling the truth" are probably going to be hurt at times.

In this case, logic indicates major foul-ups by several people, IMO.

Some corporate ag bashers have other OPINIONS, withnothing more of any real substance to support their charges, though.

MRJ
 
MRJ said:
Sandhusker said:
Tam, "2. or are you just taking Van Dykes word they exist?"

I think they're telling the truth.

Tam , "3. Did those sale barn records say anything about the Canadian tags?"

Silly question.

Tam, "5. If these cattle were exported nine months earlier to a feedlot then sold through a sale barn why weren't they branded?"

They didn't have to be.

Tam, "6. Why did the Health and export papers still in Canada not reflect a 9 month earlier export date for those numbers?"

There is a disagreement between dates.

Tam, "7. Why would Swift chance all of this bad publicity for the profits on 7 HEAD of cattle? "

They didn't. They were telling the truth until the USDA got involved.


In todays' business climate, and until 'the law' requires permanent ID and tracking from birth to consumer plate, there is little chance that "I think they are telling the truth" is going to hold up whether in commerce, or in a court of law.

For the record, I too, belieev the Van Dykes have told the truth. Without verification and via records and ID, people simply "telling the truth" are probably going to be hurt at times.

In this case, logic indicates major foul-ups by several people, IMO.

Some corporate ag bashers have other OPINIONS, withnothing more of any real substance to support their charges, though.

MRJ


Geeze, MRJ, you finally start to say something that is pro-producer!!!

If you don't believe that the U.S. (or packers) can track cattle and illegal aliens from other countries do you really think this republican administration is competent on the war on terror? Seems like they have just been lucky. Why should domestic producers be burdened with tracking domestic cattle? Shouldn't the importers bear this burden? This is where you have taken the packer stand.

This whole situation brings up real questions to the competency of this administration.

Just for the record, I am more sympathetic to the plight of Mexican illegal immigrants. The "promise" of NAFTA was that more trade would bring up the Mexican economy so there would be fewer illegal aliens. My point is that when you have so much of the benefit going to the top tiers of the social ladder, you don't get that promise fulfilled.

Article from 2001:
The Lessons of NAFTA
by Marcela Valente
Inter Press Service (international news agency), Rome,Italy, April 20,2001
World Press Review, July 2001


As countries negotiate the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), analysts are looking to Mexico's ~ experience in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) as a litmus test of how a hemisphere-wide agreement could function among economies with wide variations in size and wealth.
The model on which NAFTA was created is not like the one that prevailed in the European Union, which favored the free movement of workers and transferred funds from the wealthier countries to the least-advanced nations to reduce the disparities between members. There is an enormous development gap between Mexico and the United States and Canada, its two NAFTA partners, and any assessment of the impact of the trade bloc in that Latin American nation of 100 million will depend on the lens through which it is observed.
Since NAFTA went into effect in 1994, employment, foreign investment, economic activity, and exports-especially to the United States, the leading market for Mexican products-have all grown in Mexico. According to statistics of the Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean, open unemployment in Mexico currently stands at just 2 percent of the economically active population, while Mexico's gross domestic product (GDP) grew 7 percent in 1997,4.9 percent in 1998,3.7 percent in 1999, and 7 percent last year.
Mexico's indicators on GDP growth and investment flows are enviable to Argentina, for example, whose government has failed to pull the economy out of its slump and to reduce unemployment, which has been characterized by two-digit figures for more than 10 years. The investment-grade status that credit-rating agencies assigned Mexico's debt bonds, meanwhile, remains a distant dream for Argentina and many Latin American countries that are heavily dependent on foreign capital.
However, other statistics paint the dark side of Mexico's recent development. Annual reports by United Nations agencies indicate that the number of Mexicans living in poverty climbed from 32 million to 43 million between 1990 and 1998, while the number of malnourished Mexicans- half of them under 5-rose from 4.4 million to 5.1 million.
On the employment front, not everyone who has a job is grateful to NAFTA. The informal economy, in which workers enjoy no health or pension benefits, accounts for 29 percent of employment, while 30 percent of jobs are found in the controversial maquila or export assembly sector.
"In the maquilas, there are no labor rights or health protections, workdays stretch out 12 hours or more, and if you are a woman, you could be forced to take a pregnancy test when applying for a job," Hector de la Cueva, executive secretary of the Continental Social Alliance, a Mexico-based nongovernmental organization, told Inter Press Service. The alliance is comprised of civil society groups from throughout the Americas that advocate a model of economic development alternative to the one adopted by Mexico.
"If what the FTAA wants is a NAFTA extended to the entire continent, we say 'be careful' and warn the people of the Americas against believing that this was beneficial for Mexico," De la Cueva said on a visit to Buenos Aires. "On the contrary, it was a social disaster, and we don't want any more of those precarious jobs."
Environmentalists also are on the alert. Activists point out that various rulings by NAFTA trade-dispute panels have demonstrated that the interests of business are set above the damages that investment can cause to the environment. In several cases, member governments were ordered to pay compensation to private companies whose business endeavors faced obstacles-even in cases involving exports of toxic waste-because NAFTA rules protect investment from sanctions or claims by states. Those who complain about the heavy emphasis put on business at the expense of the environment also note that the companies investing in the maquila sector are merely seeking cheap labor and low taxes, benefits that transnational corporations cannot obtain in the countries where their head offices are located.
However, political analysts like Mexican economist Luis Rubio, director of the Research Center for Development, say that blaming NAFTA for the problems facing Mexico's economy does not reflect reality. "It is a fad to accuse NAFTA of all the ills of the Mexican economy: the rise in poverty among a large part of the population, the unemployment plaguing millions of Mexicans, and the profound decline of industry in the central region of the country. But the reality is precisely the opposite," Rubio maintained.
The maquiladora factories, which import materials or parts to assemble goods for re-export, constitute a highly developed model of production that offers broad job opportunities, said Rubio, who criticized the Mexican business community for demanding subsidies that would enable it to compete. "The only thing that really works in the Mexican economy is the sector linked to NAFTA, which is the modernized, dynamic area that draws investment. Without the trade agreement, poverty, unemployment, and the crisis would be even worse," Rubio stated in Voces, a magazine published by the Autonomous University of Mexico.
But in the view of Mexican parliamentary Deputy Carlos Heredia Zubieta of the center-left opposition Party of the Democratic Revolution, it is precisely the idea of a "dual" economy characterized by growth in some areas and backwardness in so many others that provides a complete picture of the impact of NAFTA. "There are many people in Latin America who say, 'the Mexican economy is doing great, it grew 7 percent over the past year.' But I always clarify that the real question here is, 'good for whom?' " the lawmaker stated at a conference held in Washington, D.C., in February, organized by the Economic Policy Institute and The Development GAP.
"If you look at the macroeconomic figures, it's true: Inflation is under control, the deficit is manageable, there is fiscal and monetary discipline, and exports are growing," Heredia Zubieta said. "But the beneficiaries are only a small circle of corporations with ties to the international economy, to the detriment of the majority of small and medium-sized local companies and workers and citizens in general," he argued. Domestic firms have registered zero growth or worse, while only the export sector, represented by local subsidiaries of transnational corporations, has expanded. "The domestic market is not growing. On the contrary, the buying power of Mexicans has fallen steadily over the years.
"Here we have a dual economy," the legislator added, "which is growing on one side and slipping behind on the other: Exports to the United States are rising, thanks to the output of the maquilas-which account for 53 percent of Mexico's exports-while grain imports have driven Mexican farmers into a deep crisis."
Heredia Zubieta stressed that the crisis facing farmers was of such magnitude that the Mexican parliament voted unanimously this year in favor of a resolution that slapped a 30 percent tariff on imports of grains from the United States that exceeded the agreed-on quota. "NAFTA aggravated the imbalances between the export sector and the rest of the Mexican economy, as signaled by an unprecedented report released in December by the trade committee of our Congress, which for the first time criticized the executive branch's initiative," he added.
The lawmaker's warnings are particularly relevant at a time when Mexico finds itself negotiating free trade agreements with other regions-the European Union and Southeast Asia-and when the talks for the creation of an FTAA, modeled largely on NAFTA, are moving full steam ahead. Heredia Zubieta clarified that he was not calling for the hemispheric trade agreement to be abandoned, but urging that it be reformulated in such a way that it would benefit the entire economy. He proposed, for instance, incorporating the highly charged issues of migration and environmental protection standards into the FTAA talks. "Labor power is our main export product," the congressman pointed out. "Every year, hundreds of thousands of Mexicans emigrate to the United States in search of work-a factor that the trade agreement fails to contemplate."
With respect to the belief that the countries of Latin America could gain new markets for their farm products, the legislator said that may be merely an illusion, stressing that while sales of agricultural products rose substantially within NAFTA, the increase was not from Mexico to the United States, but the other way around.
Economist Uziel Nogueira of the Inter-American Development Bank commented in Buenos Aires, meanwhile, that any assessment of NAFTA's performance would depend on the school of thought to which whoever was carrying out the evaluation subscribed. But in any case, he said, there was one reality that could not be denied. "For the first time, an underdeveloped country accepted an integration agreement with more advanced economies, without receiving differentiated treatment." NAFTA "was the first time the model of economic integration and free trade proposed these days for the entire hemisphere, through an FTAA, was accepted," Nogueira observed.

Additional reading:

http://www.citizenstrade.org/nafta_mexican_econ.php
 

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