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High Fat tubs

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We don't use tubs of any sort, just hay and mineral and we consistently get 85% bred first cycle. Our bulls are only in for 45 days max and we run about 5% open.

Our cows are straightbred angus bred to angus bulls. We have a good friend who is on exactly the same feed program as we are, has just a touch of black Simmental in his cows and he gets 90% in the first cycle.

We both breed our yearling heifers for 30 days. Don't know if that eliminates the low fertility ones, but we have a short, quick calving season. Many of our customers see the same results and they don't use tubs either.
 
We both breed our yearling heifers for 30 days. Don't know if that eliminates the low fertility ones, but we have a short, quick calving season.
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I think it does help cause I do the same. Istarted doing this the same year I started with mix 30 and haven't had a open 2yr old since. Run about 85% first cycle 3% open. so i can't say for sure, but I sure think it helps eliminate the less fertile ones.
Our bulls are only in for 45 days max
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I use this same practice too and see that the calves are more even come fall
 
Have you done a nutrient analysis on your hay at all? I'd be interested in your results, as 90% catching on first cycle is pretty much unheard of up here. Our big problem up here is the alfalfa, while being very high protein, high energy, is that its lacking vitually every mineral and nutrient required for good breeding (phosphorus, selenium, copper and zinc are all low in the soils up here). The loose mineral available locally simply doesn't have enough TMs in it to make up for the lack in the hay and grass.

I've been considering a custom mix in molasses, but I really don't think the liquid molasses tanks provide proper control of intake, and the mineral pack quickly settles out in the molasses mixes I've seen.

Rod
 
Forman

How late into the spring do feed Mix-30? My cows tend to quit eating it by late April the first of May. Some of these guys are feeding it year round, I can't figure out why or how they get them to consume any.
 
RRoss Ileave mix 30 out until I move to summer pasture. They usaully quit it when green grass gets good around the first part of May, but have access until first of June. 2 years ago pastures got awful short danm near plum outta grass put mix 30 out in august it sure helped get thru to winter grass i noticed that the cows started milking heavier then too
 
We run forage analysis as a courtesy for any customer that requests it, so I have access to the reports for several ranchers.

We don't feed alot of high protein alfalfa hay. As I have mentioned on here many times, protein is easily overfed. We feed crested wheat grass, cwg alfalfa mix, pubescent, pubescent alfalfa mix, or some barley or grain hays. Lots of people in this area don't care for brome grass for hay, but when we test it, we find it to be good.

We have found if you can mix hays, it works the best. You are right about alfalfa. It has many good qualities, it is just that range cows don't need a lot of real high protein hay. We sure like to feed some if we can, but usually not over 10# per head per day. Hay that is a grass alfalfa mix is hard to beat.

One thing that gets missed when looking at a hay or forage analysis is the ADF. That indicates the digestibility of the feed and is real important. The later the hay is harvested, the higher the ADF, the harder it is to digest. 9 times out of 10 when producers put hay out and they say their cows won't clean it up, it is due to high ADF. They simply can't digest it.

We are short of trace minerals in this country too, namely copper and zinc. That is why when we supplement a good mineral it works so well. Fills in the holes that is missed in the forage. I mention this to show you are correct in your thinking, IMO. If you add liquid feed or tubs, you are going to be adding protein and I think that could be detrimental, especially in your case where you are probably exceeding the protein requirements with what you are feeding now. No need to make this complicated or expensive when it can be dealt with simply and easily.

I will pm you and perhaps we can figure out where you are protein wise. Your feed might be way out of balance protein to energy and dry matter.

Anyway, we realize 85-90% conception rate in the first cycle is exceptionally good, but we have many customers who achieve this and have for many years.

We are in a harsh area, cows get fed a lot of 'stuff', but when we add what is missing~the whole feeding program comes together with super results.
 
The only feed I raise or harvest is grass. My supplemental feed of choice is alfalfa cubes, 2nd. or 3rd cutting [they are harder]. They tend to run 20% plus on the protein. Cows are fed about 3-4 lbs. per day. They winter very well.
So I guess my question is; what negative effects will one see from feeding too much protein? What is too much?
 
For one thing it is very expensive to overfeed protein. Why do it, when it is not necessary? It also can put the ration out of balance. When we encounter excess protein we often times see odd things happen such as overeating mineral.

Another thing, excess protein at breeding time can cause ph imbalance in the uterus and keep the egg from attaching to the uterine wall. I posted an article on this right on this site; you might find it doing a search. It was written by Dr. Dennis Price.
 
FH,

Yep, I am WELL out of whack with protein, but I don't have alot of choice in the matter right now. I haven't gotten a hay analysis done as of late, however I'm likely feeding twice as much protein as I need to. I like a grass/alfalfa mix, but I'm not willing to take the hit in yield on my hay land (we can produce 5 ton/acre alfalfa, but adding grass to the mix, even 30% grass, will half that yield). I should be grinding and blending with straw, however with working full time off the ranch, its pretty much impossible to get the time to do it.

<chuckle> I'm one of the few guys who you will find wanting a rain on their freshly cut hay, just to knock down protein content. :) I'll also cut a little later (but not too late, like you say ADF is important) to help reduce protein.

I do stay away from protein rich mineral supplements (MLS has a nutrient lick with little protein in it), and carefully pick when to feed my hottest hay vs poorer quality stuff.
 
So you are trying to tell me, that to much protein at breeding can create problems. Do I need to quit grazing my crested wheat grass meadows while breeding, :? Hell, I thought it was a good way to flush those cows. :wink:
 
RRoss said:
So you are trying to tell me, that to much protein at breeding can create problems. Do I need to quit grazing my crested wheat grass meadows while breeding, :? Hell, I thought it was a good way to flush those cows. :wink:
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Unless you have lots of Alflfa in the mix I doubt that cested wheat is that high in protien.
 
No, crested wheat is not a problem at breeding time. We are talking about any feed over 20% protein, the way I understand it. Sorry if I mislead anyone. Breeding on cereal or legume forages, for instance, is often too high in protein. Also breeding in a pasture with yellow clover most often will result in lower conception rates.

Dr. Prices advice is to get off the high protein forage during breeding season. Another thing that helps in spring, is to put out a bale or bales (depending on the amount of cattle you have) of any type of grass hay or straw. Doesn't even have to be good. Just stand the bale out there on end. The cows will eat it (maybe just a couple of bites at a time) and it will help satisfy their dry matter needs at that time of year when the grass is so full of moisture. It also helps cut the protein of the forage as well. It keeps the cattle satisfied and more content and can result in better conception rates. Pretty simple and inexpensive to do and the results are amazing.

Diamond S Cattle Co, we have analyzed rained on hay. Guess what we found? Doesn't make any difference on protein, but it does decrease vitamins and minerals. When it turns yellow from rain, that's what leaches out. Interesting, huh?

I always advocate using what you raise on your ranch. In your case, that's what you have and that is what fits your program, so use what you have. It just isn't necessary to go buy extra protein from a feed store. That is the point I am trying to make. Supplement ONLY what you know to be lacking; which is most likely vitamins and minerals.
 
The protein content of crested wheatgrass changes as it matures. We have tested crested in early spring and it is 17-18%. Have you tested it there?

We cut crested wheat grass the third week of June and it is more like 10-14%.

Anyway, I have not known of crested to cause conception problems. Maybe because we don't put the bulls in until mid-June. However, we have neighbors that put bulls in June first and they have excellent conception rates.
 
I was considering the use of one of the CRYSTALYX® Beef Products. A rancher's net advertiser, in my bull-raising program. They have so many types of tubs and none of them are labeled "For Alabama's Bull Calves"
Have any of you used them. What will work best to ad weight to my yearling bulls over the winter on tub and hay alone?
 
Do yourself a big favor and get your hay tested. Then, and really only then, can you decide on what minerals you need.

As an aside, there used to be a website around that gave approximate nutrient recommendations based on what animal (bull, calf,c ow etc etc) you were feeding, their weight, time of year (summer, winter, after calving, before breeding, etc etc.) Anyone happen to know what I'm talking about?

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Do yourself a big favor and get your hay tested. Then, and really only then, can you decide on what minerals you need.

As an aside, there used to be a website around that gave approximate nutrient recommendations based on what animal (bull, calf,c ow etc etc) you were feeding, their weight, time of year (summer, winter, after calving, before breeding, etc etc.) Anyone happen to know what I'm talking about?

Rod
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I agree feed tests are quite cheap and can save you a lot of money on feed costs. Best yet your local Ag Rep can take those test results and make a feed ration for your livestock :)
 

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