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How Many BSE Infected Cows Is Canada Sending to the US???

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
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Big Muddy rancher said:
Say OT when were you last in Canada?


Or if you haven't been where you been meeting all your Canadian friends?

Lot of them come down here- some almost weekly...Better poker and whist games for the fellas and better machines for the ladies....Several ranchers/farmers- ages 25 to 85, couple of Doctors out of Regina and some businessmen out of Assiniboia... then several others that have inlaws down here and show up for all the Holidays... My closest neighbor is married to a sweet Canuck gal, that I think is related to half of Canada.. :wink: :lol: Then some come down here to meet and do their hay trading dealing......
 
Oldtimer said:
S.S.A.P. said:
Oldtimer said:
Yet, the cow was detected with a rapid BSE test perhaps eight months before the Canadian testing program would have targeted the animal for BSE testing.

Excuse me ..... this cow WAS detected AS PART OF THE CANADIAN TESTING PROGRAM ....
You are blonde aren't you :wink: :lol: :lol: She died from complications of mastitis- CFIA says she probably would not have died from the BSE for about 8 more months- so she wouldn't have been a 4 D and targeted for testing for 8 months....

"The revelation that a rapid BSE test can detect infected animals up to eight months before the animal would fit the criteria for targeted testing is not only new news, but groundbreaking news," said R-CALF USA CEO Bill Bullard.

Again he mentions "before it would fit the criteria for the Canadian testing" ... just how to he!! does he think she was detected if not by the testing program criteria ... we've never hid the fact that we test 4-D's; dead, diseased, dying, downer

If she had not developed mastitis, became septic from that, and died the CFIA estimated she would have lived 8 more months with the BSE- then died- then became a 4 D and eligible to fit your test criteria....


Folks think about what this man just said.......


..... this cow WAS tested and detected AS PART OF THE CANADIAN TESTING PROGRAM ...
owner calls vet - vet takes sample
she became "diseased" (mastitis), was probably a "downer" while she was "dying" and was tested when "dead", sounds like she was a 4D candidate to me !!


From the report on the investigation
....The producer reported the duration of illness was two days, during which the animal displayed signs of toxic mastitis, and, despite treatment, became non-ambulatory (downer) and died. The following day, a private practitioner attended the premises to perform a post-mortem examination, which revealed the likely cause of death was toxic septicaemia attributable to the acute mastitis. Because the animal met the inclusion criteria of Canada's National BSE Surveillance Program, arrangements were made to forward appropriate samples for laboratory evaluation.......

..... This animal, along with all previous cases, was detected through the national surveillance program, which targets the highest risk animal populations.

When I wrote: "Folks think about what this man just said......."
I meant Bullard - but please include Oldtimer now.
I think he is having a hard time accepting the thoroughness of Canada's testing program !
 
S.S.A.P. said:
Oldtimer said:
S.S.A.P. said:
Excuse me ..... this cow WAS detected AS PART OF THE CANADIAN TESTING PROGRAM ....
You are blonde aren't you :wink: :lol: :lol: She died from complications of mastitis- CFIA says she probably would not have died from the BSE for about 8 more months- so she wouldn't have been a 4 D and targeted for testing for 8 months....



Again he mentions "before it would fit the criteria for the Canadian testing" ... just how to he!! does he think she was detected if not by the testing program criteria ... we've never hid the fact that we test 4-D's; dead, diseased, dying, downer

If she had not developed mastitis, became septic from that, and died the CFIA estimated she would have lived 8 more months with the BSE- then died- then became a 4 D and eligible to fit your test criteria....


Folks think about what this man just said.......


..... this cow WAS tested and detected AS PART OF THE CANADIAN TESTING PROGRAM ...
owner calls vet - vet takes sample
she became "diseased" (mastitis), was probably a "downer" while she was "dying" and was tested when "dead", sounds like she was a 4D candidate to me !!


From the report on the investigation
....The producer reported the duration of illness was two days, during which the animal displayed signs of toxic mastitis, and, despite treatment, became non-ambulatory (downer) and died. The following day, a private practitioner attended the premises to perform a post-mortem examination, which revealed the likely cause of death was toxic septicaemia attributable to the acute mastitis. Because the animal met the inclusion criteria of Canada's National BSE Surveillance Program, arrangements were made to forward appropriate samples for laboratory evaluation.......

..... This animal, along with all previous cases, was detected through the national surveillance program, which targets the highest risk animal populations.

When I wrote: "Folks think about what this man just said......."
I meant Bullard - but please include Oldtimer now.
I think he is having a hard time accepting the thoroughness of Canada's testing program !

We definitely need a beating head against stone wall emoticon :roll: As a father of two blondes I should be used to it ...Both book smart genius's- but common sense idiots :wink: :lol: :lol:
 
We definitely need a beating head against stone wall emoticon As a father of two blondes I should be used to it ...Both book smart genius's- but common sense idiots

That's where we differ .... I raised two genius's with common sense.
 
Do you honestly in your heart of hearts feel that there is any risk to the children of either country from eating beef. Or is this just more of your R-Calf the sky is falling rhetoric-S.S.A.P why not head up north and I'll buy us a pig to kick-it will get you as far as talking to OT and his cronies.
 
Tell me NR, why should we in the US take the chance? We have everything to lose, would somebody please tell me what we have to gain?
 
Isn't it quite obvious, even to a banker of your particular 'expertise', Sandhusker, that the backgrounders and feeders in the USA expect some profit from the Canadian feeders they are buying?

MRJ
 
Northern Rancher said:
Do you honestly in your heart of hearts feel that there is any risk to the children of either country from eating beef. Or is this just more of your R-Calf the sky is falling rhetoric-S.S.A.P why not head up north and I'll buy us a pig to kick-it will get you as far as talking to OT and his cronies.

Yes I do...In watching many of the decisions and theories that were put our there by USDA and CFIA fall thru the cracks- the bumblings and failure to be open and honest by both governments- and knowing that the science decisions were based largely on economics instead of true findings- coupled with CFIA and USDA's fear to go to court to prove their reasonings have left me very untrusting to the whole BSE policy....After talking with educated people that are not biased by the economic impact (Drs., Veterinarians) I have little faith in the SRM removal as being able to remove all infectivity- it may get the most serious, but definitely does not get all like portrayed by the governments Some of them also believe that many of the organ meats still being sold should have been included as SRM's....

When public health is involved you should error on the side of safety...There should not be 3-4-5 years debating on what is an SRM- or what is or isn't a hazard to feed- or giving year long feed exemptions on banned material- or arguing over if over 20 months can get BSE (when there have already been verified cases)- or whether testing is for food safety...The toughest of restrictions should be imposed and then work backwards- removing the restriction if its found they are unnecessary.....

I think this whole escapade has more illuminated the major problem involved with the USDA --they are the government agency that is out there to aid and promote the cattle and meat industry-- but they are also supposed to be the oversight agency to enforce safety regulations on these same people they are promoting and guarantee a safe product for consumers....The two get muddled together in an unhealthy muddy mess at times....

Truthfully NR- I will consider it a miracle if we don't see North American cases of vCJD....
 
MRJ said:
Isn't it quite obvious, even to a banker of your particular 'expertise', Sandhusker, that the backgrounders and feeders in the USA expect some profit from the Canadian feeders they are buying?

MRJ

So you're telling me that the short term profits of a few justify putting the entire industry at risk?
 
Oldtimer said:
Like I said- US producers and the US cattle industry stand nothing to gain from importing these apparently higher risk cattle-- but they take all the risk of a whole lot to lose....

Nothing to gain? US producers cannot produce enough beef to feed your people and STILL export to Japan and other countries. Are you willing to give up the more valuable export dollar and keep your beef at home?

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
Like I said- US producers and the US cattle industry stand nothing to gain from importing these apparently higher risk cattle-- but they take all the risk of a whole lot to lose....

Nothing to gain? US producers cannot produce enough beef to feed your people and STILL export to Japan and other countries. Are you willing to give up the more valuable export dollar and keep your beef at home?

Rod

Rod- When the borders were closed I saw no starving children in the US- never saw even a beef shortage...But I did see producers at all levels of the cattle chain getting record prices....
 
Oldtimer said:
Rod- When the borders were closed I saw no starving children in the US- never saw even a beef shortage...But I did see producers at all levels of the cattle chain getting record prices....

And you weren't exporting then either, were you? If the US doesn't export any of its production, then you can feed your population. So I ask again, are you willing to give up the far more lucrative export markets to block Canadian beef?

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
Rod- When the borders were closed I saw no starving children in the US- never saw even a beef shortage...But I did see producers at all levels of the cattle chain getting record prices....

And you weren't exporting then either, were you? If the US doesn't export any of its production, then you can feed your population. So I ask again, are you willing to give up the far more lucrative export markets to block Canadian beef?

Rod

I'd be plumb happy to give them to Canada if it meant we weren't taking the risk of importing these diseases in from all over the world....
 
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
Rod- When the borders were closed I saw no starving children in the US- never saw even a beef shortage...But I did see producers at all levels of the cattle chain getting record prices....

And you weren't exporting then either, were you? If the US doesn't export any of its production, then you can feed your population. So I ask again, are you willing to give up the far more lucrative export markets to block Canadian beef?

Rod

If we absolutely have to have imported beef,(which I can't imagine) there are sources in this world that don't have the same level of safety concerns.
 
What would hapen if we ddn't import beef or other meats to this country is it would just change the cattle cycle. Prices would regulate populaton and if the national herd had to grow than it would grow. Not recommending that this be the solution but to say we need to import beef because the US can't supply enough beef to its own country is just disingenuious. Now, if you want to say that by not exporting the cattle man will take a hit beause we don't tend to eat tongue, short ribs and variety cuts the way other markets do that is a whole other bal of wax.


Not advocating a closed border or an open border with this comment. Not an R-Calf or NCBA member. There, I am set up for getting hit by both sides now.
 
Ok, folks. Let's back off from the nationalism and look at a few facts which, unpleasant though they may be, remain facts.

1) BSE is TSE is Scrapie is vCJD. It is present in both countries and has been for some time. The US form, and probably the form in Canada, differs slightly from the British experience...

"research by Dr. Richard F. Marsh of the University of Wisconsin indicates that a U.S. version of spongiform encephalopathy already infects U.S. dairy cows.

"Marsh is an internationally-recognized expert in the study of TSEs. In 1985, he discovered an outbreak of TSE in mink in central Wisconsin. The mink had gotten the disease after being fed the remains of Wisconsin dairy cows. Over the years Marsh experimentally transferred the TSE from mink into two holstein steers through inoculation, then back from the cattle to mink, showing that it was both transmissible and fatal in both species.

"This U.S. version of TSE, however, did not produce the behavioral symptoms--staggering and drooling--that made the disease obvious in British cattle. Instead, the two steers experimentally infected by Marsh died by simply collapsing, mimicking a common cow ailment in the U.S. called "Downer Cow Syndrome." Over 20,000 "downer" cows die each year in Wisconsin alone. A U.S. BSE agent could be hidden in this large population."


2) The currently 'approved' tests in both our countries are limited to those of Prionics and Biorad. Nothing wrong with those tests except they are arguably not the best and absolutely not the safest. Both tests require infection to the point of visible symptoms before they are able to detect BSE prions. There is a better test - which works on live animals (urine) - but it has three things going against it.
  • it is not controlled by either government;
    it detects the PrPsc prion BEFORE there are symptoms; and
    it proves the entire animal is a risk, not merely "SRM"s.
3) Politics, not science, determines policy. Politics is based on money. Just as the Church in the middle ages denounced everyone who suggested the earth was not flat, so Big Money denounces anyone who endangers its position today.

4) USDA suggests on their web site that as little as one gram of bone meal from an infected animal can pass on BSE, yet that same group claims only some, commercially valueless, bits of cattle are a danger.

If the live test is used, the odds are very good infection will be found to be rampant. Compare BSE to AIDS. If most people were executed before their 25th birthday, the world would not have an AIDS epidemic. There would be tons of HIV, but very little AIDS. So it is with BSE. By slaughtering cattle when they are the tastiest, very very few have time to exhibit symptoms.

Just like hiding our heads in the sand over BSE, we ignore the possible vCJD deaths in our countrIES by labelling them Alzheimer's. From 1996
"Has a meat-borne form of Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease already spread into the U.S. human population? Despite denials from the U.S. government, at least two statistically alarming clusters of CJD have already been reported in the U.S.

"CJD has been mistaken in the past for Alzheimers, a disease that afflicts some four million Americans. The beginnings of a CJD epidemic in the U.S. could therefore be occurring already, misdiagnosed by doctors and hidden within the country's huge population of dementia patients."


There are special interests involved here, interests that the average producer doesn't usually consider.

1) Giant feedlots. If as little as 1% of a herd were infected and therefore worthless, many of the giant margin-based lots would go under.

2) Packers. Both on the herd ownership side and the liability side.

3) Government. Big Time. In both countries.

Unlike tobacco, the government not only has accepted, but also demands responsibility for meat safety. That makes them liable. Perhaps criminally liable.

So... BSE in the US does not come from Canada, nor is it the other way around. Since people can spontaneously develop kuru, a similar disease, from cannibalism there is no reason not to suspect forcing cannibalism on cattle in the form of feed made from beef by-products as an originating source for BSE.

It looks like the test of which I speak, which neither government will help in validating, will be validated in the next 12 months by the OIE istelf. After which time the truth may set us free!
 
Oldtimer said:
S.S.A.P. said:


..... this cow WAS tested and detected AS PART OF THE CANADIAN TESTING PROGRAM ...
owner calls vet - vet takes sample
she became "diseased" (mastitis), was probably a "downer" while she was "dying" and was tested when "dead", sounds like she was a 4D candidate to me !!


From the report on the investigation
....The producer reported the duration of illness was two days, during which the animal displayed signs of toxic mastitis, and, despite treatment, became non-ambulatory (downer) and died. The following day, a private practitioner attended the premises to perform a post-mortem examination, which revealed the likely cause of death was toxic septicaemia attributable to the acute mastitis. Because the animal met the inclusion criteria of Canada's National BSE Surveillance Program, arrangements were made to forward appropriate samples for laboratory evaluation.......

..... This animal, along with all previous cases, was detected through the national surveillance program, which targets the highest risk animal populations.

When I wrote: "Folks think about what this man just said......."
I meant Bullard - but please include Oldtimer now.
I think he is having a hard time accepting the thoroughness of Canada's testing program !

We definitely need a beating head against stone wall emoticon :roll: As a father of two blondes I should be used to it ...Both book smart genius's- but common sense idiots :wink: :lol: :lol:
They took after you in one way Oldtimer?
 
IL Rancher said:
What would hapen if we ddn't import beef or other meats to this country is it would just change the cattle cycle. Prices would regulate populaton and if the national herd had to grow than it would grow. Not recommending that this be the solution but to say we need to import beef because the US can't supply enough beef to its own country is just disingenuious. Now, if you want to say that by not exporting the cattle man will take a hit beause we don't tend to eat tongue, short ribs and variety cuts the way other markets do that is a whole other bal of wax.


Not advocating a closed border or an open border with this comment. Not an R-Calf or NCBA member. There, I am set up for getting hit by both sides now.

What happen to the growth in the US herd this year when the US was hit with drought? Weren't Producers culling hard as there was no grass?

If you have enough beef in the US why did the US, while you had no exports to speak of, import over 20% more beef to fill domectic demand over what you imported while you had export markets pre BSE?

Yes the US may produce enough beef, BUT AT WHAT COST??? and will the average consumer pay the price or will Beef in the US become only something the rich can afford to eat?
 
Oldtimer said:
When public health is involved you should error on the side of safety........

Since you seem to think public health is at risk, I have to ask have you asked R-CALF or your Congressmen to demand the banning of marketing of US beef until the truth is known about US BSE and the public health is assured? Or does your concern only go so far as to stopping imports? Like you say Oldtimer "When public health is involved you should error on the side of safety" :wink: If you are not demanding the banning of US beef then this will be seen as just another attempt to stop trade with a country you don't want to Compete with. :roll:
 
The country's herd is in expanding right now so heifer slaughter is down which has some impact on beef availbility... Drought has more of a regional impact, People get caught up with the west being the major cattle producing area along with Texas and the numbers support that a lot but other parts of the country have growing herds and didn't have the moisture issues that the west is continuing to go through... Lots of cows from out west are pouring into this country and lots of marginal crop ground is being turned into hay ground and pasture fences are being rebuilt.. I am not saying it would be a pretty process but when the cycle hits its low again, and we all know it will, the population of beef cattle in the US will be entirely different than it is right now.

I find the whole beef thing interesting. In 99 what were fed prices and what were feeder calf prices? Nothing like they are today right? The high end cuts at the meat market I worked at back than were similiar to what I see at the local locker now. The only real significant difference I see is in ground prices.

All that being said I am not saying that imports from Canada are a bad thing Tam. Not at all and if it came across that way it wasn't meant too.. I just believe if we were to not import or export period that the herd would pretty much fall into the same price scheme as supply/demand dictated nothing more or less than that.
 

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