Is the devil in the details?

[wdcook]

Now that NAIS is scrapped and the gov't is saying they will only regulate interstate movement of livestock, will they develop very restrictive rules on interstate movement? I think it is something to watch out for.

BTW, you guys pushing branding as a solution, in the midwest we do not brand and WE ARE NOT GOING TO.

 

[nenmrancher]

Does kinda make you wonder what USDA is hiding behind their back or is fixing to do to us.

 

[Anonymous]

wdcook- I think you are right in the fact that we can't let up our guard or drop on the oversight of this government/multinational packer backed program-- but this so far is a win for the grassroots producers and got about everything some of the true cattle producer organizations (R-CALF, USCA, Montana Cattlemans Association, etal) have fought a long battle against the Packers/USDA/AMI/NCBA to achieve...

Now we need to assure these same groups (R-CALF, USCA, Montana Cattlemans Association, etal) have a loud voice in the future discussions and proposals....

 

[gcreekrch]

My guess is that this is one of the budget cuts made so more $ could go to Obama's bailout buddies.

 

[HAY MAKER]

Now that NAIS is scrapped and the gov't is saying they will only regulate interstate movement of livestock, will they develop very restrictive rules on interstate movement? I think it is something to watch out for.

BTW, you guys pushing branding as a solution, in the midwest we do not brand and WE ARE NOT GOING TO.

Why ?
good luck

 

[Triangle Bar]

Now that NAIS is scrapped and the gov't is saying they will only regulate interstate movement of livestock, will they develop very restrictive rules on interstate movement? I think it is something to watch out for.

BTW, you guys pushing branding as a solution, in the midwest we do not brand and WE ARE NOT GOING TO.

Good point wdcook, the only thing being scraped maybe the name and the same thing is still being pushed. We and the groups that represent our interests, need to remain vigilant.

Let me echo Haymaker, WHY? Branding is a permanent ID, regardless of lost paper work

 

[mwj]

Now that NAIS is scrapped and the gov't is saying they will only regulate interstate movement of livestock, will they develop very restrictive rules on interstate movement? I think it is something to watch out for.

BTW, you guys pushing branding as a solution, in the midwest we do not brand and WE ARE NOT GOING TO.

Good point wdcook, the only thing being scraped maybe the name and the same thing is still being pushed. We and the groups that represent our interests, need to remain vigilant.

Let me echo Haymaker, WHY? Branding is a permanent ID, regardless of lost paper work

Let me pick a rockinh brand in a pen of Midwest cattle on an 800 lb steer. You are telling me that this steer can be traced by brand alone with no supporting paperwork :shock:

 

[per]

Now that NAIS is scrapped and the gov't is saying they will only regulate interstate movement of livestock, will they develop very restrictive rules on interstate movement? I think it is something to watch out for.

BTW, you guys pushing branding as a solution, in the midwest we do not brand and WE ARE NOT GOING TO.

Good point wdcook, the only thing being scraped maybe the name and the same thing is still being pushed. We and the groups that represent our interests, need to remain vigilant.

Let me echo Haymaker, WHY? Branding is a permanent ID, regardless of lost paper work

Let me pick a rockinh brand in a pen of Midwest cattle on an 800 lb steer. You are telling me that this steer can be traced by brand alone with no supporting paperwork :shock:

Sure gives some clues at least. You know where it is and where the brand was put on and the approximate age the calf was when it was applied. So you have 2 starting places in which to do an investigation. That is a whole bunch closer than if it was slick.

 

[Broke Cowboy]

Anyone who thinks branding is positive ID does not have a clear grasp on the situation as it is today in both Canada and the US of A.

And that is part of the problem - ranchers think they know - but in fact I often see that they do not know.

I have branded a lot of cows in my more than 50 years on this planet - but I will repost something I wrote a while back and ask anyone here to prove me wrong. I am open to an education - so I am willing to hear it all - however the following scenario takes place on a regular basis.

So read it and then tell me what you think - because in the end the votes get the gold - and the ag community does not have many votes any more.

BC


----------------------------------------------Here goes:

Actually branding has some serious flaws.

Even if the brand is registered - it is only in a state and not national registry - at least that is what I understand. If that is true and this scenario comes into play:

So Charlie Bumpkin has a heifer that he brands as "X" in Montana - it has one heifer calf that becomes a breeder and stays on the home place.

Charlie sells the original animal to some guy in Utah who brands it "Y", It stays there long enough to have two calves - both become breeders - one is branded and kept on the place and the other is not branded and sold to a kid down the road to show.

Who knows what happens to the show animal one as it is not a decent show animal but goes into the hobbyist field as a breeder - raising calves for the hobbyist who sells all his heifers to other hobbyists and sells the remainder as bulls and steers to the local hobby guys and gals.

"Some guy in Utah" then sells the original cow to some gal and then it goes to Alabama where it has three or four calves that are not branded.

The owner puts an unregistered brand on the animal - she is not branding because she has to - she is branding because she wants to know her cattle when they are in the community pasture. Calves are not branded and go to two or three places in the local area but one actually goes back to Montana as an unbranded heifer.

Then the cow goes to Tennessee where it has a couple calves that are not branded but used as breeding stock on other farms in the local area.

It then it ends up in Iowa as a slaughter cow.

I believe this to be an untraceable animal using the brand method - and for damned sure the offspring are untraceable - and today there are a lot of animals that travel this much AND more

So - unless I misunderstand the branding system you folks have - IT IS NOT INFALLABLE. In fact it has terrible flaws that most refuse to recognize.

I wish you folks would stop acting like it is. To think regionally is very parochial - when in fact your cows travel all over the country and live in non-brand states as well.

As for mandatory - not so sure I like being told how to operate either.

But - someone come up with a system that works. Otherwise one will be imposed - and that my friends is a fact - especially with todays government.

To further complicate the issue - that brand "X" and "Y" can be registered in other states to other owners - making it all the more complex. And then to look for that unregistered brand - that makes it even more difficult.

To complicate it even further - the same brand can be registered to more than one person if I remember correctly - the brand location being the definitive. Now you can have several people using that brand and where they place it is the only separator in the registry.

If all brand states have someone registered to "X" and "Y" you are well and truly screwed with the trace back.

If a non brand state does not have a registry - or a person brands using a non registered brand - it further complicates the issue.

Lets make it even tougher - some COUNTIES have their own brand registry - Texas I believe is one of them - it does not even get to the state level.

Now it is close to impossible.

Especially if they raise the panacea cow - Black Angus and all the varieties of Black Angus.

So stop telling me branding works. In many cases it does - in many cases it does not. To think otherwise is what is getting you all into this pickle in the first place.

What bothers me when I see all this writing is I see people that are thinking about their own little area - it is bigger than you - it is national and it is international - so - come up with a system that works - or someone else will - it is that simple.

To make it even more unpalatable - it will be imposed - no matter what you think or want - governments move slowly but they do move - and therefore it will come.

It also tells me there are a lot of people out there that do not understand how animals travel today.

So - if I am wrong and there is a national brand registry - I have been sitting up over here all night and into the sun rise - writing like I know something and in fact I know nothing!

Hmmmm...... Please do not confuse me with that person - I actually do give a damn - I am just tired

Cheers

BC

 

[MO STOCKER]

In MO , the third largest cow-calf state, there are around 65000 cow owners.I am assuming in the brand states that each owner has a brand registered to his name. If that be the case, in MO alone it would be nearly impossible to register a distinctive brand for every producer.

The complexity of this issue is probably what caused the opposition to it. We are ,by nature, an independent lot.

 

[Triangle Bar]

Let me pick a rockinh brand in a pen of Midwest cattle on an 800 lb steer. You are telling me that this steer can be traced by brand alone with no supporting paperwork :shock:

Yes it is possible in a state that brands & has active brand inspection for sale & transport of intrastate & interstate livestock.

Here a case in point story. A semi load of cattle arrived at one of La Junta, CO sale barns. The load wasn't consigned by the owner. The load arrived pre-dawn when the attendant was sound asleep in his bunk and wasn't notified. No bill of lading was left to indicate who the owner was or any other note or paper trail.

The cattle were moved to a separate pen when discovered and the usual brand & vet inspection commenced. The vet quickly noticed some of the cows were obviously sick; drooling, vesicles on the nose. He diagnosed VS a highly contagious disease. Through brand inspection the owner was contacted to come pickup his animals and other than having to disinfect the load chute and pen the cows were in and alley way in between, there was no other contamination to other livestock or the facilities. The whole process took about 6 hours.

Is it a perfect system, No. It a system that works, you bet.

 

[HAY MAKER]

Anyone who thinks branding is positive ID does not have a clear grasp on the situation as it is today in both Canada and the US of A.

And that is part of the problem - ranchers think they know - but in fact I often see that they do not know.

I have branded a lot of cows in my more than 50 years on this planet - but I will repost something I wrote a while back and ask anyone here to prove me wrong. I am open to an education - so I am willing to hear it all - however the following scenario takes place on a regular basis.

So read it and then tell me what you think - because in the end the votes get the gold - and the ag community does not have many votes any more.

BC


----------------------------------------------Here goes:

Actually branding has some serious flaws.

Even if the brand is registered - it is only in a state and not national registry - at least that is what I understand. If that is true and this scenario comes into play:

So Charlie Bumpkin has a heifer that he brands as "X" in Montana - it has one heifer calf that becomes a breeder and stays on the home place.

Charlie sells the original animal to some guy in Utah who brands it "Y", It stays there long enough to have two calves - both become breeders - one is branded and kept on the place and the other is not branded and sold to a kid down the road to show.

Who knows what happens to the show animal one as it is not a decent show animal but goes into the hobbyist field as a breeder - raising calves for the hobbyist who sells all his heifers to other hobbyists and sells the remainder as bulls and steers to the local hobby guys and gals.

"Some guy in Utah" then sells the original cow to some gal and then it goes to Alabama where it has three or four calves that are not branded.

The owner puts an unregistered brand on the animal - she is not branding because she has to - she is branding because she wants to know her cattle when they are in the community pasture. Calves are not branded and go to two or three places in the local area but one actually goes back to Montana as an unbranded heifer.

Then the cow goes to Tennessee where it has a couple calves that are not branded but used as breeding stock on other farms in the local area.

It then it ends up in Iowa as a slaughter cow.

I believe this to be an untraceable animal using the brand method - and for damned sure the offspring are untraceable - and today there are a lot of animals that travel this much AND more

So - unless I misunderstand the branding system you folks have - IT IS NOT INFALLABLE. In fact it has terrible flaws that most refuse to recognize.

I wish you folks would stop acting like it is. To think regionally is very parochial - when in fact your cows travel all over the country and live in non-brand states as well.

As for mandatory - not so sure I like being told how to operate either.

But - someone come up with a system that works. Otherwise one will be imposed - and that my friends is a fact - especially with todays government.

To further complicate the issue - that brand "X" and "Y" can be registered in other states to other owners - making it all the more complex. And then to look for that unregistered brand - that makes it even more difficult.

To complicate it even further - the same brand can be registered to more than one person if I remember correctly - the brand location being the definitive. Now you can have several people using that brand and where they place it is the only separator in the registry.

If all brand states have someone registered to "X" and "Y" you are well and truly screwed with the trace back.

If a non brand state does not have a registry - or a person brands using a non registered brand - it further complicates the issue.

Lets make it even tougher - some COUNTIES have their own brand registry - Texas I believe is one of them - it does not even get to the state level.

Now it is close to impossible.

Especially if they raise the panacea cow - Black Angus and all the varieties of Black Angus.

So stop telling me branding works. In many cases it does - in many cases it does not. To think otherwise is what is getting you all into this pickle in the first place.

What bothers me when I see all this writing is I see people that are thinking about their own little area - it is bigger than you - it is national and it is international - so - come up with a system that works - or someone else will - it is that simple.

To make it even more unpalatable - it will be imposed - no matter what you think or want - governments move slowly but they do move - and therefore it will come.

It also tells me there are a lot of people out there that do not understand how animals travel today.

So - if I am wrong and there is a national brand registry - I have been sitting up over here all night and into the sun rise - writing like I know something and in fact I know nothing!

Hmmmm...... Please do not confuse me with that person - I actually do give a damn - I am just tired

Cheers

BC

BrokeCowboy,I geta kick outa readin about this well traveled heifer,and your story does have some merit,but in reality by the time that heifer made that many miles changed owners that many times as you described she would be so old no one would give a damn about tracing her,unless she had BSE then it would be a simple matter of tracing her back to Canada.
So lets stick with the facts and that is the technology for readin tags/chips dont exist, its been proven they can not keep up with the speed of commerce.
Branding can and does work,we just have to keep the fairy tales about well traveled heifers to a minimum and accept the fact that a good brand accompanied by paper work mandated and enforced is simple and necessary.
good luck

 

[Broke Cowboy]

I am sure you are a guy I could sit a share a drink with - but your business knowledge is sadly lacking in todays markets at the national and international levels.

This is in fact a very probable example of a cows movement and certainly of her off spring - which shows why branding does not work.

Cross one state line and get sold one more time and she disappears into the dust on the horizon.

When your clients start demanding positive ID and full traceability we will see what happens.

No fairy tale here other than the isolated world you and many others are living in.

As I said - do not shoot the messenger

Sooner or later it will come - and that means you need to be proactive rather than live in denial.

BC

 

[Juan]

Well said Haymaker.
Want some snow?

 

[HAY MAKER]

I am sure you are a guy I could sit a share a drink with - but your business knowledge is sadly lacking in todays markets at the national and international levels.

This is in fact a very probable example of a cows movement and certainly of her off spring - which shows why branding does not work.

Cross one state line and get sold one more time and she disappears into the dust on the horizon.

When your clients start demanding positive ID and full traceability we will see what happens.

No fairy tale here other than the isolated world you and many others are living in.

As I said - do not shoot the messenger

Sooner or later it will come - and that means you need to be proactive rather than live in denial.

BC

When and 'if' it comes and its advantageous to the cattleman,I will support it,thanks for your input and fairy tale
good luck

 

[HAY MAKER]

Well said Haymaker.
Want some snow?

I dont need moisture in any form around here,as bad as I hate to say it,damn drought worked me over for 4 straight years,now we slop thru mud all winter,soon as its warm enough to grow grass probably start droughtin again,I must not be livin right,but we plant this spring.........like an old man said once.......you do what you are suppose to do when you are supposed to do it,I would hate to not plant and have it rain all summer..................good luck

PS You been pickin your Martin

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Let me pick a rockinh brand in a pen of Midwest cattle on an 800 lb steer. You are telling me that this steer can be traced by brand alone with no supporting paperwork :shock:

Yes it is possible in a state that brands & has active brand inspection for sale & transport of intrastate & interstate livestock.

Here a case in point story. A semi load of cattle arrived at one of La Junta, CO sale barns. The load wasn't consigned by the owner. The load arrived pre-dawn when the attendant was sound asleep in his bunk and wasn't notified. No bill of lading was left to indicate who the owner was or any other note or paper trail.

The cattle were moved to a separate pen when discovered and the usual brand & vet inspection commenced. The vet quickly noticed some of the cows were obviously sick; drooling, vesicles on the nose. He diagnosed VS a highly contagious disease. Through brand inspection the owner was contacted to come pickup his animals and other than having to disinfect the load chute and pen the cows were in and alley way in between, there was no other contamination to other livestock or the facilities. The whole process took about 6 hours.

Is it a perfect system, No. It a system that works, you bet.

That worked probably because CO. has brand laws. What if those cows came out of MO. with a brand that someone used for their own ID and not registered or out of Texas where Haymaker says brands aren't registered even at county level or Montana where I don't think they have their brands on line. Where to start looking?
I have nothing against branding. We brand our own cattle. I got paid for one that showed up at the auction this fall with some other cattle. The NAIS is not just for determining ownership but in the case of disease outbreak to speedily contain it.

 

[HAY MAKER]

Let me pick a rockinh brand in a pen of Midwest cattle on an 800 lb steer. You are telling me that this steer can be traced by brand alone with no supporting paperwork :shock:

Yes it is possible in a state that brands & has active brand inspection for sale & transport of intrastate & interstate livestock.

Here a case in point story. A semi load of cattle arrived at one of La Junta, CO sale barns. The load wasn't consigned by the owner. The load arrived pre-dawn when the attendant was sound asleep in his bunk and wasn't notified. No bill of lading was left to indicate who the owner was or any other note or paper trail.

The cattle were moved to a separate pen when discovered and the usual brand & vet inspection commenced. The vet quickly noticed some of the cows were obviously sick; drooling, vesicles on the nose. He diagnosed VS a highly contagious disease. Through brand inspection the owner was contacted to come pickup his animals and other than having to disinfect the load chute and pen the cows were in and alley way in between, there was no other contamination to other livestock or the facilities. The whole process took about 6 hours.

Is it a perfect system, No. It a system that works, you bet.

That worked probably because CO. has brand laws. What if those cows came out of MO. with a brand that someone used for their own ID and not registered or out of Texas where Haymaker says brands aren't registered even at county level or Montana where I don't think they have their brands on line. Where to start looking?
I have nothing against branding. We brand our own cattle. I got paid for one that showed up at the auction this fall with some other cattle. The NAIS is not just for determining ownership but in the case of disease outbreak to speedily contain it.

Again............we need the brand laws fine tuned mandated and enforced,thats one of the biggest problems folks dont like goverment mandates..........but sometimes they are necessary,if I can brand my Texas pickup and drive it to Montana without problems of identification,I can do the same thing to my cattle.
good luck

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Yes it is possible in a state that brands & has active brand inspection for sale & transport of intrastate & interstate livestock.

Here a case in point story. A semi load of cattle arrived at one of La Junta, CO sale barns. The load wasn't consigned by the owner. The load arrived pre-dawn when the attendant was sound asleep in his bunk and wasn't notified. No bill of lading was left to indicate who the owner was or any other note or paper trail.

The cattle were moved to a separate pen when discovered and the usual brand & vet inspection commenced. The vet quickly noticed some of the cows were obviously sick; drooling, vesicles on the nose. He diagnosed VS a highly contagious disease. Through brand inspection the owner was contacted to come pickup his animals and other than having to disinfect the load chute and pen the cows were in and alley way in between, there was no other contamination to other livestock or the facilities. The whole process took about 6 hours.

Is it a perfect system, No. It a system that works, you bet.

That worked probably because CO. has brand laws. What if those cows came out of MO. with a brand that someone used for their own ID and not registered or out of Texas where Haymaker says brands aren't registered even at county level or Montana where I don't think they have their brands on line. Where to start looking?
I have nothing against branding. We brand our own cattle. I got paid for one that showed up at the auction this fall with some other cattle. The NAIS is not just for determining ownership but in the case of disease outbreak to speedily contain it.

Again............we need the brand laws fine tuned mandated and enforced,thats one of the biggest problems folks dont like goverment mandates..........but sometimes they are necessary,if I can brand my Texas pickup and drive it to Montana without problems of identification,I can do the same thing to my cattle.
good luck

The best argument for NAIS that I have ever heard. Thanks Haymaker,

Your pickup and everyone you own has it's own ID number mandated by the government of TEXAS and it is in a online database so if your truck is stolen and found in Montana they would look at the plates or VIN number and Know who's truck it was. I think your catching on. It's took awhile but I knew you'd come around.

 

[burnt]

Only because he kinda stumbled on it . . . . :lol: :lol: :lol: