Is there anyone left who can reason???

[TimH]

I gotta hand it to Ron(is that short for Veronica?), she's done a fine job of rallying the troops.....usually the first thing people like her do when they are wrong.

Here's a little scenario for you "folks" to think about......

Randy Kaiser has some young bred cows for sale. Oldtimer is interested.

OT-"I like them cows Kaiser, but why are you asking so much for them"?
Kaiser-" They were all tested with Ron's test. We slaughtered the 7 that were persumptive-positive and only 2 head came up positive with the post-mortem confirmatory test.The rest are pretty much guaranteed clean,Oldtimer".

OT- "What do you mean "Pretty much"?????

Kaiser-" Well they'll have to be tested again to confirm, when they go to slaughter.No big deal".

OT- "Ya, no big deal I suppose. So these are herdmates of several BSE positive animals?

Kaiser- "Yep".

OT- "And we can't be sure they are BSE free until the post-mortem confirmation??"

Kaiser- "Nope".

OT- "Sold. I'll gladly pay extra for your cattle Kaiser.....and to hell with R-calf. These are good cows and I'm bringing them home to Montana today!!

The End.

I gotta go feed my cattle some brains and spinal cords now. I'll be back later for some more fun and games.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

It isn't the test thats at question here,its the fact BSEtester hints that the WHOLE Canadian cattle herd is infected with BSE. Then if anyone disagrees with him and his theories they are stupid.

And NO you are NOT in it for the same reason the cattleman is ,how can you even 'CLAIM" that????????

It isn't so much what you and I think about the odds of a cow having BSE, it's what customers think. How many countries in this world won't take your beef, MG? Don't you think that if you can say that every animal has been tested and the positives weeded out that you might have a better arguement than "The OIE says..." to opening those borders?

Also, shouldn't the eradication of the disease altoghether be a priority? Do you have a better idea than a live test to accomplish that?

Sandhusker tell us how many countries won't take our beef but will take yours.

 

[HAY MAKER]

It isn't the test thats at question here,its the fact BSEtester hints that the WHOLE Canadian cattle herd is infected with BSE. Then if anyone disagrees with him and his theories they are stupid.

And NO you are NOT in it for the same reason the cattleman is ,how can you even 'CLAIM" that????????

It isn't so much what you and I think about the odds of a cow having BSE, it's what customers think. How many countries in this world won't take your beef, MG? Don't you think that if you can say that every animal has been tested and the positives weeded out that you might have a better arguement than "The OIE says..." to opening those borders?

Also, shouldn't the eradication of the disease altoghether be a priority? Do you have a better idea than a live test to accomplish that?

Sandhusker tell us how many countries won't take our beef but will take yours.

Big dummie,you know better'n ask a question like that..............you are just stirring the pot..................good luck

 

[Mrs.Greg]

MR, "Sandhusker...the YES was to your first line."

OK, then I'll ask you again, do you have a better idea on how to accomplish that than a live test?

:???: You really don't read posts do you? I have no problam AT ALL with the tests hell as a matter of fact I probably support it BUT I do NOT believe our herd is rampant with BSE infection,well no more then your is thats for sure. Our cases are being found and identified,doesn't it bother you your kids may be eating an American born and raised hamburger BSE infected at the local fair :?

 

[Sandhusker]

It isn't the test thats at question here,its the fact BSEtester hints that the WHOLE Canadian cattle herd is infected with BSE. Then if anyone disagrees with him and his theories they are stupid.

And NO you are NOT in it for the same reason the cattleman is ,how can you even 'CLAIM" that????????

It isn't so much what you and I think about the odds of a cow having BSE, it's what customers think. How many countries in this world won't take your beef, MG? Don't you think that if you can say that every animal has been tested and the positives weeded out that you might have a better arguement than "The OIE says..." to opening those borders?

Also, shouldn't the eradication of the disease altoghether be a priority? Do you have a better idea than a live test to accomplish that?

Sandhusker tell us how many countries won't take our beef but will take yours.

Stay on the topic, BMR. Some will take yours and not ours, some will take ours and not yours, whatever. Start a new thread if you want to take about that. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a potential tool that could address a lot of issues on both sides of the border.

 

[Sandhusker]

MR, "Sandhusker...the YES was to your first line."

OK, then I'll ask you again, do you have a better idea on how to accomplish that than a live test?

:???: You really don't read posts do you? I have no problam AT ALL with the tests hell as a matter of fact I probably support it BUT I do NOT believe our herd is rampant with BSE infection,well no more then your is thats for sure. Our cases are being found and identified,doesn't it bother you your kids may be eating an American born and raised hamburger BSE infected at the local fair :?

Yes, it does bother me that US citizens might be eating infected meat. That's why I'm against the final rule. That's why I've bent the ear of my senators about our feed ban. That's why I'm wishing Ron the best and full speed ahead.

However, claiming that all your cases are being found is a statement that you can't prove. You're not testing all of them, so how are you finding those cases where the animal is positive but not yet showing clinical signs?

 

[Mrs.Greg]

MR, "Sandhusker...the YES was to your first line."

OK, then I'll ask you again, do you have a better idea on how to accomplish that than a live test?

:???: You really don't read posts do you? I have no problam AT ALL with the tests hell as a matter of fact I probably support it BUT I do NOT believe our herd is rampant with BSE infection,well no more then your is thats for sure. Our cases are being found and identified,doesn't it bother you your kids may be eating an American born and raised hamburger BSE infected at the local fair :?

Yes, it does bother me that US citizens might be eating infected meat. That's why I'm against the final rule. That's why I've bent the ear of my senators about our feed ban. That's why I'm wishing Ron the best and full speed ahead.

However, claiming that all your cases are being found is a statement that you can't prove. You're not testing all of them, so how are you finding those cases where the animal is positive but not yet showing clinical signs?

Same old same old with you Sandhusker,if we have it YOu have it...TOOO damn many cattle crossed the border,its time some of you took them darn rose coloured glasses off and faced some facts.

 

[Sandhusker]

:???: You really don't read posts do you? I have no problam AT ALL with the tests hell as a matter of fact I probably support it BUT I do NOT believe our herd is rampant with BSE infection,well no more then your is thats for sure. Our cases are being found and identified,doesn't it bother you your kids may be eating an American born and raised hamburger BSE infected at the local fair :?

Yes, it does bother me that US citizens might be eating infected meat. That's why I'm against the final rule. That's why I've bent the ear of my senators about our feed ban. That's why I'm wishing Ron the best and full speed ahead.

However, claiming that all your cases are being found is a statement that you can't prove. You're not testing all of them, so how are you finding those cases where the animal is positive but not yet showing clinical signs?

Same old same old with you Sandhusker,if we have it YOu have it...TOOO damn many cattle crossed the border,its time some of you took them darn rose coloured glasses off and faced some facts.

IF I was in denial, why would I be upset about our feed ban? When have I ever denied having BSE? We've got it, I don't deny it. Satisfied?

If you're truly concerned about consumers eating infected beef, which I believe you are, what about the beef that comes from untested positives which don't get tested simply because they don't look sick yet?

 

[bse-tester]

Mrs. Greg wrote:

For one thing OT,BSE isn't infectious from what I gather,I don't believe WHOLE herds have BSE,its like anything,what causes Alzhiemers and why only one person in a household gets it,and Alziemers isn't really typical in all cases as a matter of fact its been different in EVERY case I've ever dealt with and the brain damage is never the same...Pet Scans can now prove that.

Let me simply say this:

If BSE or in other words, the Bovine form of Prion Disease (PrPsc) is, as you state, NOT INFECTIOUS - why is that all testing facilities for the disease and for all other TSE's must be done in a lab that has at least a "Level 3 Containment" ranking????

Prion Disease is still obvioulsy misunderstood by some on this board. As for Alzheimer's Disease, I would sure like to know why you state that there is no difference between each and every case??

Would you agree that some cases of vCJD or CJD have been misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's Disease??


Look Mrs. Greg, I am not saying at all that the entire Canadian Herd is full of or rampant with BSE. I am however saying loudly and very clearly that the current testing protocol is not enough and that the risk of some animals slipping through the system is extremely possible - and has likely happened.

Do the math - if one apple in the barrel that is full of apples has a worm in it, how many apples will you bite into without checking for a worm???

Common sense is not a game - it is manadatory when we sell product for human consumption and to evade complete and absolute safety is indeed a crime in my opinion.

Would you want a woman to use a pregnancy test that would suggest that she is only a little bit pregnant?? I think not - but you do advocate testing only a handfull of animals and you do advocate accepting those results as being a sure sign and garantee that the entire national herd is safe. Now do you understand what I am trying to get through to you Mrs. Greg. It is not about your herd or about TimH's herd - it is about food safety - period!!! I do applaud the things you do to raise strong and healthy product, really, I do!! But why not test them for the sake of the consumer??

The arguments against testing are for the most part - THE COST!! This is why the Packers do not want testing - it cuts into their bottom-line!! Producers are concerned about the costs added to the producing the beef or beef products? Five years ago we heard the cost of testing was around CAN$300.00 per head. Today, we can do it for less than CAN$20.00 per head. By the time our test is validated, we know that cost will fall even more.

The arguments for testing are many - but they include:

Food Safety
Human Health
Risk Management of the National Herds
Enhanced Markets Acceptance
Better Price per pound of beef to the producer
Competetive Marketing Strategies
International Acceptance for the tested product
Low cost testing

What producer would not want these things if all it took was to simply test their product with a test that could make all of the above possible without costing more than good meal at a local restaurant?????

 

[Mrs.Greg]

BSEtester you skimmed my post..I said Alzhiemers HAS been different in EVERY case I've ever dealt with. To be honest with you until you brought it up I truly didn't think of the possibility of the misdiagnosis.Now you have me thinking about that,I DO know we've had cases of people being diagnosed with Alziemers then finding out that that the brain damage was because of spray chemicals that were used in open tractors.As a matter of fact we strongly believe a friend of ours may be suffering from this same thing.

The CJD death I watched came up FAST and the death was fast and horrible,not like any of the Alzhiemer cases I've dealt with.They seem to be slower deaths and regression happened whereas the CJD wasn't as regressive.

As far as infectious explain to me why not every animal will get BSE and not every human will get Alzhiemers althoug in the same circumstances...I understand immunity but even with a strong immunity infections that are supposed to be as bad as BSE is why is in not more prevelant?????

 

[rkaiser]

Sandhusker has an excellent question for the USDA ------

If you're truly concerned about consumers eating infected beef, which I believe you are, what about the beef that comes from untested positives which don't get tested simply because they don't look sick yet?

And Ron throws one up that can not go unchallenged -----

If BSE or in other words, the Bovine form of Prion Disease (PrPsc) is, as you state, NOT INFECTIOUS - why is that all testing facilities for the disease and for all other TSE's must be done in a lab that has at least a "Level 3 Containment" ranking????

I would have to say that the reason for security is the fact that the answer to the cause of BSE is still unknown and may even be avoided intentionally due to the the lawsuits that would break out should the Purdey theory of metal contamination be proven correct. Don't forget Ron, that Purdey did not say that feed transmission was not a possible means of transmitting. Only not an infectious means. Contaminated SRM could certainly contain enough rouge metal to start the BSE process in the next unfortunate host.

 

[Sandhusker]

Sandhusker has an excellent question for the USDA ------

If you're truly concerned about consumers eating infected beef, which I believe you are, what about the beef that comes from untested positives which don't get tested simply because they don't look sick yet?

And Ron throws one up that can not go unchallenged -----

If BSE or in other words, the Bovine form of Prion Disease (PrPsc) is, as you state, NOT INFECTIOUS - why is that all testing facilities for the disease and for all other TSE's must be done in a lab that has at least a "Level 3 Containment" ranking????

I would have to say that the reason for security is the fact that the answer to the cause of BSE is still unknown and may even be avoided intentionally due to the the lawsuits that would break out should the Purdey theory of metal contamination be proven correct. Don't forget Ron, that Purdey did not say that feed transmission was not a possible means of transmitting. Only not an infectious means. Contaminated SRM could certainly contain enough rouge metal to start the BSE process in the next unfortunate host.

I think that is also an excellent question for ANYBODY that supports the USDA's final rule. However, I expect the same answer that I got from the USDA...... silence.

 

[bse-tester]

Randy, you make a great point. I have never discounted metal contamination as being a potential cause for misfolding normal PrP. There is evidence that copper actually does block the fired impusle in the brain whereas in other circumstances, it allows the conductiveness of the electron to pass through after the trigger has fired to the receptor.

Metal contamination as far as Mark Purdey is concerned was and remains a very good hypothesis and may well be part of the cause. There is enough evidence to suggest that further studies are warranted. I do however, take exception to his one disciple on this board who tries desperately to imply that all TSE's are the result of nation-wide or world-wide deployment of DU or other military residues. Whereas they may play a part in some health issues I am quite certain that they are not the sole cause.

Copper and other base metals do play a roles in this equation but I must admit that is not my area whereas the development and validation of a specific protocol desighed to identify the presence of PrPsc is. I leave the cause issue to those in that specific field of science. But enough studies have been conducted Randy to identify the risk of transmission of PrPsc from one individual to another, whether they are human or otherwise. Hence the name "Transmissible Spon......"

At what point to we call a disease infectious? When it enters the body by some perhaps unknown means or when it manifests itself clinically? We commonly call the process wherein a common scratch is being attacked by the body's own internal defense mechanisms as "....I think it is getting infected!!!" we say this routinely simply because the area around the scratch is reddened and swollen and then we term this as being infected. So please, do not take my use of the term out of context.

I do believe however that when an animal or a human has the PrPsc introduced in one manner or another into their system that they have in fact, been or have become infected!! It is a simple diagnostic term to describe in plain English the fact the disease has entered into the host. Enough said. Ron.

 

[rkaiser]

Wasn't talking about the final rule Sandman. Just pose the question period. You know damn well that the USA would be finding as many as Canada if they were actually testing the same as Canada.

If you're truly concerned about consumers eating infected beef, what about the beef that comes from untested positives which don't get tested simply because they don't look sick yet?

Ask the USDA the question about American cattle Sandman.

 

[rkaiser]

Randy, you make a great point. I have never discounted metal contamination as being a potential cause for misfolding normal PrP. There is evidence that copper actually does block the fired impusle in the brain whereas in other circumstances, it allows the conductiveness of the electron to pass through after the trigger has fired to the receptor.

Metal contamination as far as Mark Purdey is concerned was and remains a very good hypothesis and may well be part of the cause. There is enough evidence to suggest that further studies are warranted. I do however, take exception to his one disciple on this board who tries desperately to imply that all TSE's are the result of nation-wide or world-wide deployment of DU or other military residues. Whereas they may play a part in some health issues I am quite certain that they are not the sole cause.

Copper and other base metals do play a roles in this equation but I must admit that is not my area whereas the development and validation of a specific protocol desighed to identify the presence of PrPsc is. I leave the cause issue to those in that specific field of science. But enough studies have been conducted Randy to identify the risk of transmission of PrPsc from one individual to another, whether they are human or otherwise. Hence the name "Transmissible Spon......"

At what point to we call a disease infectious? When it enters the body by some perhaps unknown means or when it manifests itself clinically? We commonly call the process wherein a common scratch is being attacked by the body's own internal defense mechanisms as "....I think it is getting infected!!!" we say this routinely simply because the area around the scratch is reddened and swollen and then we term this as being infected. So please, do not take my use of the term out of context.

I do believe however that when an animal or a human has the PrPsc introduced in one manner or another into their system that they have in fact, been or have become infected!! It is a simple diagnostic term to describe in plain English the fact the disease has entered into the host. Enough said. Ron.

Fair enough Ron, I am not going to get in to an argument over the word infectious --- or even the word disease. I appreciate your allowing the metal contamination theory to be viable and like you say --- enough said.

 

[Sandhusker]

Wasn't talking about the final rule Sandman. Just pose the question period. You know damn well that the USA would be finding as many as Canada if they were actually testing the same as Canada.

If you're truly concerned about consumers eating infected beef, what about the beef that comes from untested positives which don't get tested simply because they don't look sick yet?

Ask the USDA the question about American cattle Sandman.

I DID.... didn't get a reply.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

It isn't so much what you and I think about the odds of a cow having BSE, it's what customers think. How many countries in this world won't take your beef, MG? Don't you think that if you can say that every animal has been tested and the positives weeded out that you might have a better arguement than "The OIE says..." to opening those borders?

Also, shouldn't the eradication of the disease altoghether be a priority? Do you have a better idea than a live test to accomplish that?

Sandhusker tell us how many countries won't take our beef but will take yours.

Stay on the topic, BMR. Some will take yours and not ours, some will take ours and not yours, whatever. Start a new thread if you want to take about that. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a potential tool that could address a lot of issues on both sides of the border.

Your the one that asked the question of Mrs Greg. Why don't you become informed as check out for yourself how many countries take our beef.

 

[TimH]

What's wrong Ron and disciples???? Didn't like my little scenario? Where's the comments? Where's the insults and rhetoric??

Here's another little story. I hope you like it.

Sandhusker has a pen of choice steers that are ready to go.He's phoning around for bids.He knows that Cargill,Tyson and Swifts will only screw him so he calls a smaller independant packing plant that he knows has a contract to supply the Asian market with born,raised and slaughtered in the USA UTM beef.......let's listen in on his call.....

"Hi Mr.Buyer. I have a set of fat steers here ready to go.What's your bid on them"??

Buyer- " Ninetysix".
Sandy-"I forgot to mention these are tested for BSE using Ron's live test.I was thinking more in the range of $105 since I know you have an Asian contract."

Buyer-" I can ship all the $96 beef I can buy to Asia.Their protocol says SRM removed, not BSE tested.I'm not giving you $105."

Sandhusker-" But the guy that sold me the live tests says that SRM removal is a joke and untested beef is unsafe and my cattle would be worth more if they were tested and.....

Buyer-"Hang on a minute Sandy, I gotta get the other line"......(30 seconds pass)......."Ya Sandy, the bid just went down to $77. It seems that there is some Ron-guy, from Edmonton Canada, on CNN yapping off about how dangerous it is to eat beef.Do you want to let them steers go at $77 then?? They could get even lower if the media decides to run with this..."

Sandhusker-" Did you say Ron?? From Edmonton??? I'll have to call you back".

The end.

 

[Sandhusker]

Or, a more believable version;

Hi Mr.Buyer. I have a set of fat steers here ready to go.What's your bid on them"??

Buyer- " Ninetysix".

Sandy-"I forgot to mention these are tested for BSE using Ron's live test.I was thinking more in the range of $105 since I know you have an Asian contract."

Buyer-" Oh, that does make a differnce. It's about time they come up with a way to quit farting around with SRM removal. That is expensive to do and expensive to dispose those SRMS. Now that they're using that same test themselves, their protocol is SRM removal or BSE tested. As soon as all live cattle are tested and we will know BSE has been eradicated, we won't have to mess with any of this and this BSE will all be behind us. But, back to our deal, since I don't have that SRM nonsense with your cattle, I can offer 104.

Sandy, "Close enough, I'll call the wagons. By the way, have you heard from TimH lately?"

Buyer, "Last I knew, he was the peanut roaster for some Ukranian Circus. He just couldn't comprehend basic business."

 

[rkaiser]

Your first story made no sense from the beginning Tim. Why would anyone test bred cows for marketing purposes? Oldtimer might like the option of testing them for slaughter after they had a dozen or so calves for him ---- but he would likely want to Shoot and Shovel them like a true Rcalfer by then.

Ukrainian Circus Hey ----- 8)