Kit Pharo in Wisconsin

[3frame]

anytime you purchase a bull you should consider your enviroment,but the way i see it kit is a marketer and a good one at that.i would never ask him to bred a cow for me though.a good friend of ours is kits largest co operator and has started using some of our bulls to try to fix some of the problems he has in his herd,he is in fescue country like we are and thats why he has chosen to use our bulls.kit has pretty good ideas but not all of them will work for everyone.so not all of the bulls will work for everyone.some of the bulls in this years sale are out of one of our bulls,look in the black angus section they are the crandell of wye calves

 

[PureCountry]

Can't keep my mouth shut on this one. When Kit was here speaking in Forestburg, I picked him up from the airport and toured him around a bit during his stay. We spent a fair bit of time looking through our purebred Galloways and of course, talking cattle. All I'll say about his theories and concepts is that I agree with Denny 100%, it's all common sense. Kit just says it in a way that's very straight-to-the-point and direct, which at times people seem to take as criticism of their own operation. I don't, and that's my business.

We've been trying to graze longer for a few years, and have made great strides in our genetics. I'm noticing more and more that our environment knows how to pick the best females far better than I do, and I'm reminded of it every calving season(June). Some females I doubted, will calve in the 1st cycle and be great Momma cows. Others I had high hopes for have fallen apart. And there is no correlation between that and their weight. There is a correlation between those results and frame score. Bigger framed cows have weeded themselves out of our place. They've come in open, had foot/leg problems, lost calves, etc. I've culled based on what Mother Nature has shown us, and what we're being left with is a herd that will average a frame 3-4, and weigh probably 1300-1350lbs.

I don't think we need to get hung up on "Well Kit Pharo said I need to have frame 3 cows that weigh 1200lbs or I'll go broke ranching." Kit Pharo never said any such thing, nor did anyone post that here. I'm saying that seems to be the label thrown on Kit, but that's his statement about what works ON HIS RANCH. It may work for others too, but as someone else stated, the deer get bigger as you go farther north. In our conversations together, Kit admitted that his heifers brought to Canada would probably turn into 1300lb cows over 2-3 generations, and maybe even bigger than that. They would become a product of their environment, end of story.

In regards to the man's credibility, after spending 3 days with him, touring him around our county, our ranch, feeding him in our home and watching my 2 and 4yr old boys give him hugs before we left for the airport, I can undoubtedly say that I have all the respect in the world for Kit Pharo. I believe him to be an honest, hard-working, confident businessman, a fine rancher, a deep-thinking philosopher, one of the most common sense cattlemen I've ever met, and a friend.

That said, I may not always agree with him, and I do my own things. But as a friend and respected fellow cattleman, I'll always listen to what he has to say and take what I can from it. To ignore is ignorance. JMO.

 

[rkaiser]

This thread is actually a lot about what makes the cattle industry strong and viable. That being freedom of choice and diversity. A phrase like "ought to" is kinda like the word "should" to me. I took "should" out of my personal dictionary a while back. Using the words "ought to" are a little strong, as are a few other words that Kit chooses to use. But hay, we also have the choice not to read those words, and choose our own path. Again, I say, that freedom and diversity is what sets our industry apart from some other agricultural products.

If every one of us followed the Kit Pharo design, it would be a fair bit easier for the multinational companies to round us all up and treat us like the chicken and pork guys. No thanks I say. I'd rather see Mike work hard on his Charolais genetics and watch my neighbor calve his Simmental cows in his already paid for, heated calving barn if that is what he chooses. What does not make sense to some of us is obviously making dollars to someone else or they wouldn't keep doing it.

Nobody is going to convince old Kaiser to start calving my cows in June. Mid April is working fine and I have seen enough of those poor little July born babies struggle through their first winter mainly due to their lack of sheer size once the cold weather hits in October. 60 days means 150 or more pounds on my calves and those 150 pounds certainly help when it hits -30 degrees.

The independence of the Cattleman is a strong and enviable trait and one that we need to continue to concentrate on propagating in our own species.

 

[WyomingRancher]

This thread is actually a lot about what makes the cattle industry strong and viable. That being freedom of choice and diversity. A phrase like "ought to" is kinda like the word "should" to me. I took "should" out of my personal dictionary a while back. Using the words "ought to" are a little strong, as are a few other words that Kit chooses to use. But hay, we also have the choice not to read those words, and choose our own path. Again, I say, that freedom and diversity is what sets our industry apart from some other agricultural products.

If every one of us followed the Kit Pharo design, it would be a fair bit easier for the multinational companies to round us all up and treat us like the chicken and pork guys. No thanks I say. I'd rather see Mike work hard on his Charolais genetics and watch my neighbor calve his Simmental cows in his already paid for, heated calving barn if that is what he chooses. What does not make sense to some of us is obviously making dollars to someone else or they wouldn't keep doing it.

The independence of the Cattleman is a strong and enviable trait and one that we need to continue to concentrate on propagating in our own species.

:agree: :clap: :tiphat:

I say lets have respect for what our neighbors choose to do. There are pros and cons to every way of operating, but unless you walk in another's shoes, you can't fully understand their justification for doing things the way they are being done.

I know Kit probably wouldn't agree with this operation calving in March, or all the feeding that occurs during the winter.

Turning my cattle out to graze is a nice idea if you have the grass in a spot where Pondersosa pine trees don't live. Unfortunately I have to manage my cows away from pine trees during their last trimester, and so therefore my grazing options are limited.

Also, as far as calving time, I like to breed my cattle before they go up to a common forest allotment. It's also a lot easier taking 3 month old calves up to the forest versus 1 month olds. Also, I have to brand my calves, and branding later, with the flies can be icky.

I've tried April/May calving, and realized it didn't work well for me. I fed the same amount of hay, worked harder calving in heavy wet blizzards, and sold 110 pound lighter calves in the fall. Also, when I was busy trying to repair fence and work meadows, I was stuck calving cows. Maybe to see the true benefit, I would need to push them farther into May, but with a forest permit, that isn't an option at this time.

 

[RobertMac]

Can't keep my mouth shut on this one. When Kit was here speaking in Forestburg, I picked him up from the airport and toured him around a bit during his stay. We spent a fair bit of time looking through our purebred Galloways and of course, talking cattle. All I'll say about his theories and concepts is that I agree with Denny 100%, it's all common sense. Kit just says it in a way that's very straight-to-the-point and direct, which at times people seem to take as criticism of their own operation. I don't, and that's my business.

We've been trying to graze longer for a few years, and have made great strides in our genetics. I'm noticing more and more that our environment knows how to pick the best females far better than I do, and I'm reminded of it every calving season(June). Some females I doubted, will calve in the 1st cycle and be great Momma cows. Others I had high hopes for have fallen apart. And there is no correlation between that and their weight. There is a correlation between those results and frame score. Bigger framed cows have weeded themselves out of our place. They've come in open, had foot/leg problems, lost calves, etc. I've culled based on what Mother Nature has shown us, and what we're being left with is a herd that will average a frame 3-4, and weigh probably 1300-1350lbs.

I don't think we need to get hung up on "Well Kit Pharo said I need to have frame 3 cows that weigh 1200lbs or I'll go broke ranching." Kit Pharo never said any such thing, nor did anyone post that here. I'm saying that seems to be the label thrown on Kit, but that's his statement about what works ON HIS RANCH. It may work for others too, but as someone else stated, the deer get bigger as you go farther north. In our conversations together, Kit admitted that his heifers brought to Canada would probably turn into 1300lb cows over 2-3 generations, and maybe even bigger than that. They would become a product of their environment, end of story.

In regards to the man's credibility, after spending 3 days with him, touring him around our county, our ranch, feeding him in our home and watching my 2 and 4yr old boys give him hugs before we left for the airport, I can undoubtedly say that I have all the respect in the world for Kit Pharo. I believe him to be an honest, hard-working, confident businessman, a fine rancher, a deep-thinking philosopher, one of the most common sense cattlemen I've ever met, and a friend.

That said, I may not always agree with him, and I do my own things. But as a friend and respected fellow cattleman, I'll always listen to what he has to say and take what I can from it. To ignore is ignorance. JMO.

:agree: :clap: :clap: :clap:
I hope Kit's critics are just as skeptical of ideas from someone with a PhD behind their name...whose livelihood has probably never depended on income from cattle!!! I think you should be more skeptical!!!!!

This is why y'all don't like Kit...

The phrase "the way you OUGHT to" rubs me the wrong way. Seems to me that that statement is a little cocky, and potential customers don't like buying from the cocky guy...

Kit just says it in a way that's very straight-to-the-point and direct, which at times people seem to take as criticism of their own operation.

Think about what he says, not how he says it.

 

[CattleArmy]

I've seen calves produced by his wonder bulls. I just keep wondering why the people bought them. :???:

My opinion and part of a goal being in this industry is to raise a product that sells itself not a product that I have to travel far and wide in order to sell while along the way telling how wonderful mine is and what others are lacking. Just my thought on it.

 

[RobertMac]

I've seen calves produced by his wonder bulls. I just keep wondering why the people bought them. :???:

My opinion and part of a goal being in this industry is to raise a product that sells itself not a product that I have to travel far and wide in order to sell while along the way telling how wonderful mine is and what others are lacking. Just my thought on it.

It's hard to argue with success. If his cattle weren't any good, he wouldn't be selling the volume he is...unless you think all the cattlemen that buy them are ignorant of what good cattle are?
I'm sorry, I just don't understand begrudging someone else's success! :? :???:

 

[movin' on]

Plus, think how hard it is to sell bulls that are totally and completely not in the "mainstream" fad catalog.

The fact that he sells as many bulls as he does and doesn't use (to my knowledge) any fad 1407, 036, etc. bulls is amazing to me.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that. I'm going out on a limb and saying that because there's no way someone can promote efficiency, longevity, and fertility and use the popular slab-sided narrow-based Angus bulls of today.

 

[PureCountry]

His fall sale was something like 400 bulls at an average of around $3900. I may be off a bit, but it was something like that. That doesn't mean 400 buyers necessarily, but around 400 BIDDERS for sure. I'd congratulate anyone having a sale like that, no matter what breed, what type or what friggin' species they're selling. Good on 'em. They're not perfect ranchers, perfect cattlemen or perfect people, but they've got a good program going that's putting smiles on the faces of alot of customers.....and their banker. That's success in any industry.

 

[Faster horses]

I sure agree with you, movin on--about the 036; 1407's and let's add
Precision cattle in here too.

 

[Big Swede]

I also agree with the sentiment about the popular Angus sires of the day. The Angus breed should quit trying to be something that it was never intended to be. Breeding Angus should about building a functional female factory not a continental breed wanna be.

 

[CattleArmy]

I've seen calves produced by his wonder bulls. I just keep wondering why the people bought them. :???:

My opinion and part of a goal being in this industry is to raise a product that sells itself not a product that I have to travel far and wide in order to sell while along the way telling how wonderful mine is and what others are lacking. Just my thought on it.

It's hard to argue with success. If his cattle weren't any good, he wouldn't be selling the volume he is...unless you think all the cattlemen that buy them are ignorant of what good cattle are?
I'm sorry, I just don't understand begrudging someone else's success! :? :???:

I don't begrudge his sucess. I just personally, notice I said personally,don't see much value in his genetics or his ego.

 

[jigs]

got room for me on that bandwagon Cattle Army??? that is the way I feel too.

 

[Anonymous]

His fall sale was something like 400 bulls at an average of around $3900. I may be off a bit, but it was something like that. That doesn't mean 400 buyers necessarily, but around 400 BIDDERS for sure. I'd congratulate anyone having a sale like that, no matter what breed, what type or what friggin' species they're selling. Good on 'em. They're not perfect ranchers, perfect cattlemen or perfect people, but they've got a good program going that's putting smiles on the faces of alot of customers.....and their banker. That's success in any industry.

Yep- and I'm always waiting for one of these "perfect" people to explain it all to me :shock: :wink: :lol:

Different areas of the countr(ies)- climates, grass, land values, land ownership, etc., etc...Different strokes for different folks...Each persons perceptions make up their "perfect" cattle.....

 

[sic 'em reds]

I don't understand why everyone gets so wound up about Pharo this time of year?

He's only one breeder in the US compared to other billion trying to sell their program to get a bull sold.

I dont believe in his program because it logistically doesn't work for us in this area. If I could calve from May until god knows when and have co-op's doing the same thing I would..it doesn't work here. It's like sellin a antelope to Florida...its not gonna pan out

A sale average is a sale average. The top ten bulls always set the average, that doesn't mean the other 390 bulls sold that well. I've watched the sale on TV and seen the auctioneer beg for a bid. It happens at alot of sales?

 

[Faster horses]

I have been to some Kit Pharo's sales, (I wasn't at this one) and I can tell you that there hasn't been much variation in price throughout the sale on ANGUS bulls. I don't recall how the others did; but he sure didn't seem to run out of buyers at the sales where I was.

We did buy a bull from him and he was one of the larger framed bulls. But he traced up pretty close to the old Rito 707 and I think Papa Durabull.
We used him for several years.

Some of our Vigortone customers use his bulls and seem very satisfied.
One rancher told me the bull does everything he wanted him to do; but he kept him hidden from view. :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[RobertMac]

I don't understand why everyone gets so wound up about Pharo this time of year?

I don't understand either...the man has an ego problem because he promotes his program and his genetics???? I understand that from other seedstock providers...he's the competition (and some may be jealous of his success).
Let me make one thing clear...I have never bought a bull from Kit and probably never will. I (as I'm sure many of you) was following the same basic philosophy before I ever knew who Kit was, but have picked up things from him that have helped me.

 

[BRG]

I am a seedstock producer and what he is doing works for him. That is great. I love to see everyone succeed.

In my program I never tell someone what they should be doing. No one likes to be told what to do. I do however tell the customer what we can do for you, how we can help you, and what our cattle will do. It just seems like he is always telling everyone what to do and how to do it and that his way is the only way or you will loose. It seems that he never quite tells the whole story about his cattle. He says that his small 3 & 4 frame bulls will make you the most money, and the popular bulls in the industry right now don't cut it for the commercial man. Well, the first few lots to sell last fall in his sale were Cherokee Canyon sons. Cherokee Canyon is not a big bull, but he is a heck of a lot bigger than a 2, 3, or 4 frame. They also sold at the high end money wise.

Also, I know by visiting with feeders, those calves that come from 3 frame, calving ease bulls just don't work for them. They are ussually to spindly made and don't gain very well and they have too many discounts to make the feeder money. I know my customers like to have repeat buyers on their calves. The guys that I have visted with that have fed these kind of calves, now say, even with the higher feed costs, they don't want anything to do with them. However with saying that, I am sure those smaller type cows work great on grass alone. But we need to look past sale day, if we want to sell well again next time.

The last part I don't like is he seems to always lump all seedstock producers together and say we are all doing it wrong for the commercial cowman. Pretty big generalization that is incorrect.

But like I said, I am glad that he is successfull and wish him luck in the future. Everyone needs to make a buck.

 

[Doug Thorson]

Well said BRG. Seedstock producers need to take care of all aspects of the cattle industry. Kit's program might work well for some but I think it is a little narrow for most producers. Some places are not big enough to graze year round and just because you have imputs does not mean that you are destined to fail. Everyone has a pencil that works differently and as long as them and their banker think it will work that is OK.

 

[CattleArmy]

Well said BRG.

Faster Horses also made a point about keeping the bull out of view. :wink: I just also know some that had a calf crop to feel that way about.