Kit shows the way ahead

[BRG]

Again, I feel ya'll need to look for different seed stock producers then! :roll: There are lots of outfits who run commercial cows also and sell dandy bulls. And if the ones doing it "WRONG" didnt have lots of butts sitting in seats raising thier hands during sales, they wouldnt be in buisness! So who's fault is it? The guys selling the bulls or the guys buying them? :???: Buy your bulls the way you like them, talk with your checkbook and it will all sort itself out.

I agree. If the seedstock producer wants to survive with all the tough competition their is out there, they will raise and do what the commercial cattlemen will pay for.

 

[Big Swede]

The market has a way of weeding out the producers of any product that is not in demand. If a man's product doesn't sell he either makes his product better or goes out of business. Bulls are no different, right BRG?

 

[Justin]

Dylan hit the nail right on the head. How many seedstock herds could sell their cattle by the pound and survive? I know of no successful commercial men calving 1800 pound cows in January.

well if you know which breeders those are, i wouldn't buy bulls from them.

 

[Justin]

Several seedstock providers run Kit down, but the fact is that Kit wouldn't be having the success he has if seedstock providers were supplying bulls that were working for the commercial cattleman...and if Kit's bulls weren't working for the commercial cattleman, he wouldn't be having the success.

On the same token, Kit does alot of running down of seedstock producers himself. He may not name them in his newlsetters, but he does as a group. Take his last newsletter for example. Talking about an Angus breeder who sold 500 bull and averaged over $7000. We all know who he is talking about, but then he goes on and says I am sure their was some "Funny Money" involved. If I was that breeder I would confront good old Kit. Why does one think he has to bad mouth another breeder to be successful. I dispise that type of business!

while i'm not here to defend Kit, he only said what probably thousands of others are thinking. and yes, we know who he is talking about, but should he have said that in his newsletter?......maybe not, maybe he should have saved it for the coffee shop. regardless, he has a long list of customers...good for him.

 

[BRG]

Several seedstock providers run Kit down, but the fact is that Kit wouldn't be having the success he has if seedstock providers were supplying bulls that were working for the commercial cattleman...and if Kit's bulls weren't working for the commercial cattleman, he wouldn't be having the success.

On the same token, Kit does alot of running down of seedstock producers himself. He may not name them in his newlsetters, but he does as a group. Take his last newsletter for example. Talking about an Angus breeder who sold 500 bull and averaged over $7000. We all know who he is talking about, but then he goes on and says I am sure their was some "Funny Money" involved. If I was that breeder I would confront good old Kit. Why does one think he has to bad mouth another breeder to be successful. I dispise that type of business!

while i'm not here to defend Kit, he only said what probably thousands of others are thinking. and yes, we know who he is talking about, but should he have said that in his newsletter?......maybe not, maybe he should have saved it for the coffee shop. regardless, he has a long list of customers...good for him.

I agree, he has a product that lots of guys want, and he does good selling them and I am happy for his success. I just don't think he needs to stab all seedstock breeders with the same fork and I don't think a guy should badmouth anyone.

 

[BRG]

The market has a way of weeding out the producers of any product that is not in demand. If a man's product doesn't sell he either makes his product better or goes out of business. Bulls are no different, right BRG?

I would say they should make the product what their customers want, as I don't like to see anyone go out of business, but you are correct.

 

[Justin]

On the same token, Kit does alot of running down of seedstock producers himself. He may not name them in his newlsetters, but he does as a group. Take his last newsletter for example. Talking about an Angus breeder who sold 500 bull and averaged over $7000. We all know who he is talking about, but then he goes on and says I am sure their was some "Funny Money" involved. If I was that breeder I would confront good old Kit. Why does one think he has to bad mouth another breeder to be successful. I dispise that type of business!

while i'm not here to defend Kit, he only said what probably thousands of others are thinking. and yes, we know who he is talking about, but should he have said that in his newsletter?......maybe not, maybe he should have saved it for the coffee shop. regardless, he has a long list of customers...good for him.

I agree, he has a product that lots of guys want, and he does good selling them and I am happy for his success. I just don't think he needs to stab all seedstock breeders with the same fork and I don't think a guy should badmouth anyone.

agree 100%

 

[Yanuck]

Dylan hit the nail right on the head. How many seedstock herds could sell their cattle by the pound and survive? I know of no successful commercial men calving 1800 pound cows in January.

well if you know which breeders those are, i wouldn't buy bulls from them.

We run both purebred and commercial, and as I've said we have some fairly large sisters. Just because its purebred doesn't mean it stays or stays intact, the purebreds are culled just as hard as the commercial and ran exactly the same way...side by side. We haven't starved yet...if either of you are ever out this way, stop in and have a look...might clear up some of the smoke for you

 

[Justin]

Dylan hit the nail right on the head. How many seedstock herds could sell their cattle by the pound and survive? I know of no successful commercial men calving 1800 pound cows in January.

well if you know which breeders those are, i wouldn't buy bulls from them.

We run both purebred and commercial, and as I've said we have some fairly large sisters. Just because its purebred doesn't mean it stays or stays intact, the purebreds are culled just as hard as the commercial and ran exactly the same way...side by side. We haven't starved yet...if either of you are ever out this way, stop in and have a look...might clear up some of the smoke for you

:? what smoke?

 

[Northern Rancher]

I think there might be some fire too lol.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

I take from that Kit is saying your calving & breeding seasons should match your feed resources. That makes perfect sense especially with his non-supplemented year around grazing management. Maybe that heifer was just a late bloomer or maybe old Kit needed to cake his heifers.:wink: :shock:

Dylan, that is a valid point; however in Kit's situation, I think he actually practices what he preaches.

If you look back at my post you will notice I was not referring to Kit or his program.

Tri Bar I think he practices what he preaches also. I have known Kit personally since the mid 90,s when Kit was interested in learning more about our forage raised grass tested bull program. I encouraged him to give it a go, initially he was a bit nervous to try it himself. It took a few years before he started with the forage raised grass tested bulls, his first offering being in 1999. Kit has done a fantastic job of marketing the idea and legitimizing this approach to developing and selecting bulls. I started with our program in 1994 and which I continue to practice and believe in to this day. I would be the last person to knock Kits program. In fact we need more programs like his IMHO.

FYI In Kits Red Angus semen line up are two bulls I have had input into the "Dylan" bull I bred from a flush from one of my first cows I purchased form Six Mile Red Six Mile Lana 762T that half the embryos went to David Hall and the Arapahoe bull that Kit use to refer to as a result of a fire and ice mating. He phoned me and asked me what bull I would use on that cow and I suggested he use a bull I was using at the time Bieber Chiefton 3080 because I had noticed that when you bred him to the right cow he would give you a light BW calf that grew. He took my suggestion and Arapahoe was the result. NR bought a bull from me TK Chiefton 179D that is from the 3080 bull that did the same thing light BW good growth. To see what two bulls I am referring to go to the link below.

http://www.pharocattle.com/Semen-Source-2009/redangus.htm

 

[Silver]

Anyone who's motto is "Buy your bulls from someone who raises cattle the way you ought to" falls off my list of outfits I'm interested in learning about immediately.

 

[Justin]

I think there might be some fire too lol.

the wind is out of the SE today, but i still think it's comin' from Idaho :? :lol:

 

[leanin' H]

I think there might be some fire too lol.

the wind is out of the SE today, but i still think it's comin' from Idaho :? :lol:

Can you blame Yanuck? :???: The way know it alls on this site badmouth purebred outfits all the time I'm suprised her and BRG havent just said to hell with us all! There's a bunch of folks anymore who are all hat and no cattle!

And Justin, this isnt directed at you.

 

[RSL]

I think these are all good points, but I think that the seedstock industry is different and needs to be different than the commercial industry.
For one, not every customer has the same cows or same needs, so a seedstock supplier probably needs a bit of variety in the bulls they have for sale. For another, a later calving commercial producer often prefers a bull with a little more age, thereby hopefully reducing problems. This leads to either selling two year olds, long yearlings(fall born) or calving early. I think a lot of seedstock guys that calve early know that the cost is lower for them than the cost of keeping bulls and extra year. Once you are in that system, it is tough to change, as you may have a year with no cash flow.
I know there are smoke and mirrors out there, and that many commercial producers have better herds than the folks trying to sell them bulls, but there are also a lot of good people and good herds of functional seedstock cattle out there in many breeds.
If a seedstock producer is still in business after an extended period of time despite all their obvious flaws, and are still as terrible as many here seem to think, then it is obviously the fault of the commercial guy who keeps buying bulls.
For the record I am not a seedstock producer, but I know quite a few that I respect a lot (and some I don't
)...

 

[hillsdown]

Dylan hit the nail right on the head. How many seedstock herds could sell their cattle by the pound and survive? I know of no successful commercial men calving 1800 pound cows in January.

well if you know which breeders those are, i wouldn't buy bulls from them.

We run both purebred and commercial, and as I've said we have some fairly large sisters. Just because its purebred doesn't mean it stays or stays intact, the purebreds are culled just as hard as the commercial and ran exactly the same way...side by side. We haven't starved yet...if either of you are ever out this way, stop in and have a look...might clear up some of the smoke for you

Probably even harder and need to meet even higher standards to cut it as seedstock ,especially if you expect to sell and have repeat customers..

 

[Big Swede]

BRG the point I was trying to make is that if a purebred breeder isn't breeding the cattle that people like to buy and use he will eventually run out of customers. As long as he has customers in the seats at his sale he must be doing something right. Those that run out of customers are the ones who will either change or be out of business. By the way if I raised red cattle I would probably be one of your customers. I like your cattle.

 

[leanin' H]

I agree with Big Swede! We need to run a simple test on the Black is best attitude that seems to work against red cattle at the sale barn. We need to dye some soggy, pretty red calves with a dye that will last. Then do an undercover camera documentary on how they do in a feedlot all the way to the plate. Color has absolutely nothing to do with good cattle to me! Anyone that has been to BRG's place or veiwed his cattle in a catalog or online knows it is as good as it gets. Don't be getting a big head now! :wink:

 

[Blkbuckaroo]

I think there might be some fire too lol.

the wind is out of the SE today, but i still think it's comin' from Idaho :? :lol:

Don't inhale(Bill Clinton) :lol: :wink:By the way,we love Yanuck :heart:

 

[BRG]

BRG the point I was trying to make is that if a purebred breeder isn't breeding the cattle that people like to buy and use he will eventually run out of customers. As long as he has customers in the seats at his sale he must be doing something right. Those that run out of customers are the ones who will either change or be out of business. By the way if I raised red cattle I would probably be one of your customers. I like your cattle.

We are on the same page. Thanks for the compliment!!!