knife cut vs banded - premium or discount

[Soapweed]

I guess I need to look into this more as well as all the other stuff I'm doing. I know I'll never band. I liked knife cutting them at birth on some of them this year because they seemed to show way less stress over the ordeal than the ones that got cut at a older age. .....but if they aren't going to gain as much, whats a guy to do? My calves are way bigger this year than last, so I am not noticing any down side to how I am cutting, maybe. More stuff to think about.

Little green cheerios cost about a buck a hundred.

No sharp knives.

No open wounds, flys, infection.

And your Never gonna try it?!

I've knife cut all the calves born on our operation for the past 35 years, and haven't lost one yet. This summer during fly season we knife cut four yearling bulls, and they came through in fine shape. It's kind of like pulling a band-aid off a hairy arm. Which hurts worse, jerking it off in one quick motion, or slowly dragging it off hair by hairy hair? I think it's easier on a bull to transform into a steer with a swift "get it over with in a hurry" operation.

Back about thirty years ago, some animal drug company came out with an injection that could be applied into the scrotum. This was supposed to efficiently and effectively make a bull into a steer, and it only cost about a dollar per injection. A neighboring ranch fell for the pitch, and gave the testicle terminator shot at branding time. The whole experiment turned into a train wreck, and I never saw that particular method advertised again.

 

[LazyWP]

I guess I need to look into this more as well as all the other stuff I'm doing. I know I'll never band. I liked knife cutting them at birth on some of them this year because they seemed to show way less stress over the ordeal than the ones that got cut at a older age. .....but if they aren't going to gain as much, whats a guy to do? My calves are way bigger this year than last, so I am not noticing any down side to how I am cutting, maybe. More stuff to think about.

Little green cheerios cost about a buck a hundred.

No sharp knives.

No open wounds, flys, infection.

And your Never gonna try it?!

I have seen a lot more infection with band not properly put on then I ever have caused by a knife. I worked at a back grounding lot in Kansas, where they used the Calicrate bander on a bunch of 6 weight bulls. Evidently they never pulled the bands tight enough, for we had lots of animals walking around with their testicles hanging out.

 

[per]

Comparing Chemcast to banding at birth and banding 6 weights to banding at birth is the kind of strategy that belongs on Political bull.

 

[gcreekrch]

I guess I need to look into this more as well as all the other stuff I'm doing. I know I'll never band. I liked knife cutting them at birth on some of them this year because they seemed to show way less stress over the ordeal than the ones that got cut at a older age. .....but if they aren't going to gain as much, whats a guy to do? My calves are way bigger this year than last, so I am not noticing any down side to how I am cutting, maybe. More stuff to think about.

Little green cheerios cost about a buck a hundred.

No sharp knives.

No open wounds, flys, infection.

And your Never gonna try it?!

I have seen a lot more infection with band not properly put on then I ever have caused by a knife. I worked at a back grounding lot in Kansas, where they used the Calicrate bander on a bunch of 6 weight bulls. Evidently they never pulled the bands tight enough, for we had lots of animals walking around with their testicles hanging out.

I've seen the results of knives in inexperienced hands also. :wink:

In a different area than this springtime mudbog I castrated calves at birth with a knife the same as my Dad did with no undesirable results.
Have not had any deaths or complaints from buyers since we went to banding at birth. Regardless of method it is far more humane to castrate as early in a calf's life as is possible.

 

[4Diamond]

I've heard the new wave is to keep the bull intact and staple the scrotum up into the stomach and let the bull remain in tact. The heat from the body will make them sterile and the nuts won't be down swinging. I don't know a thing about this but a neighbor boy had this topic presented to him in a ag class at college. Anyone know about this?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I've heard the new wave is to keep the bull intact and staple the scrotum up into the stomach and let the bull remain in tact. The heat from the body will make them sterile and the nuts won't be down swinging. I don't know a thing about this but a neighbor boy had this topic presented to him in a ag class at college. Anyone know about this?

I was in ag college in the 70's and it was "presented" to us then as well.

How many big commercial operations do you know of doing this? :?

 

[gcreekrch]

I've heard the new wave is to keep the bull intact and staple the scrotum up into the stomach and let the bull remain in tact. The heat from the body will make them sterile and the nuts won't be down swinging. I don't know a thing about this but a neighbor boy had this topic presented to him in a ag class at college. Anyone know about this?

I was in ag college in the 70's and it was "presented" to us then as well.

How many big commercial operations do you know of doing this? :?

The "presenter" should have that procedure performed on himself. :roll:

 

[4Diamond]

I know of none that do this.

 

[Hanta Yo]

have to weigh in on this. We band at birth. No open wound, no problem with flies. If you have a problem getting two, we leave them until branding and then if you cannot get two in the band, you knife cut them. That might be one calf a year. On a different ranch we used Chemcast and ended up coming back and knife cutting about 200 head, with the testicles adhered to the scrotum, one of the worst jobs ever. We also have had an experience with leaving them until weaning. Beartooth Beef wanted all natural, non castrated bulls for their meat program. We went along with it only to have the thing fold in the second year. So we had 200 head of bulls to castrate at weaning. Used the EZ castrater, worked my butt off for a whole day doing them. Sure they weighed more than steers but then the next two months in the feedlot they gained a pound a day, rather than the 3 that steers gained. Net gain zero. band them at birth and the animal rights people cannot get on you for cutting an animal without anesthetic and traumatizing animals in our care. I actually got this question put to me at a beef symposium and I will stick to my answer then, band at birth. There is research that has proven that banding at birth is the way to go, I do not remember where it was done but they compared weaning weights of banded at birth to knife cut to banded at branding. band at birth

 

[littlejoe]

have to weigh in on this. We band at birth. No open wound, no problem with flies. If you have a problem getting two, we leave them until branding and then if you cannot get two in the band, you knife cut them. That might be one calf a year. On a different ranch we used Chemcast and ended up coming back and knife cutting about 200 head, with the testicles adhered to the scrotum, one of the worst jobs ever. We also have had an experience with leaving them until weaning. Beartooth Beef wanted all natural, non castrated bulls for their meat program. We went along with it only to have the thing fold in the second year. So we had 200 head of bulls to castrate at weaning. Used the EZ castrater, worked my butt off for a whole day doing them. Sure they weighed more than steers but then the next two months in the feedlot they gained a pound a day, rather than the 3 that steers gained. Net gain zero. band them at birth and the animal rights people cannot get on you for cutting an animal without anesthetic and traumatizing animals in our care. I actually got this question put to me at a beef symposium and I will stick to my answer then, band at birth. There is research that has proven that banding at birth is the way to go, I do not remember where it was done but they compared weaning weights of banded at birth to knife cut to banded at branding. band at birth

I agree with you---I band at birth, unless they get ahead of me. Never had any trouble doing it at branding either. And I usually gotta cut one or two when both nuts ain't down. One yr I wanted a couple of AI bulls, I left about a dozen intact and figured I'd use the wonder product wadsworth manufacturing makes with surgical tubing. The guy I borrowed it from told me to practice on a broomstick, suck it up till it broke, then put it on bulls just a 'tad' looser. What a wreck! If you do try this, give a tetanus shot. And maybe trim the hair around the sheath--just for looks. If you get a chance, put one on that wadsworth guy.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

have to weigh in on this. We band at birth. No open wound, no problem with flies. If you have a problem getting two, we leave them until branding and then if you cannot get two in the band, you knife cut them. That might be one calf a year. On a different ranch we used Chemcast and ended up coming back and knife cutting about 200 head, with the testicles adhered to the scrotum, one of the worst jobs ever. We also have had an experience with leaving them until weaning. Beartooth Beef wanted all natural, non castrated bulls for their meat program. We went along with it only to have the thing fold in the second year. So we had 200 head of bulls to castrate at weaning. Used the EZ castrater, worked my butt off for a whole day doing them. Sure they weighed more than steers but then the next two months in the feedlot they gained a pound a day, rather than the 3 that steers gained. Net gain zero. band them at birth and the animal rights people cannot get on you for cutting an animal without anesthetic and traumatizing animals in our care. I actually got this question put to me at a beef symposium and I will stick to my answer then, band at birth. There is research that has proven that banding at birth is the way to go, I do not remember where it was done but they compared weaning weights of banded at birth to knife cut to banded at branding. band at birth

I agree with you---I band at birth, unless they get ahead of me. Never had any trouble doing it at branding either. And I usually gotta cut one or two when both nuts ain't down. One yr I wanted a couple of AI bulls, I left about a dozen intact and figured I'd use the wonder product wadsworth manufacturing makes with surgical tubing. The guy I borrowed it from told me to practice on a broomstick, suck it up till it broke, then put it on bulls just a 'tad' looser. What a wreck! If you do try this, give a tetanus shot. And maybe trim the hair around the sheath--just for looks. If you get a chance, put one on that wadsworth guy.

Gee the Wadsworth bander has worked fine for me. :?


Are you left handed? :wink:

 

[hillsdown]

have to weigh in on this. We band at birth. No open wound, no problem with flies. If you have a problem getting two, we leave them until branding and then if you cannot get two in the band, you knife cut them. That might be one calf a year. On a different ranch we used Chemcast and ended up coming back and knife cutting about 200 head, with the testicles adhered to the scrotum, one of the worst jobs ever. We also have had an experience with leaving them until weaning. Beartooth Beef wanted all natural, non castrated bulls for their meat program. We went along with it only to have the thing fold in the second year. So we had 200 head of bulls to castrate at weaning. Used the EZ castrater, worked my butt off for a whole day doing them. Sure they weighed more than steers but then the next two months in the feedlot they gained a pound a day, rather than the 3 that steers gained. Net gain zero. band them at birth and the animal rights people cannot get on you for cutting an animal without anesthetic and traumatizing animals in our care. I actually got this question put to me at a beef symposium and I will stick to my answer then, band at birth. There is research that has proven that banding at birth is the way to go, I do not remember where it was done but they compared weaning weights of banded at birth to knife cut to banded at branding. band at birth

I agree with you---I band at birth, unless they get ahead of me. Never had any trouble doing it at branding either. And I usually gotta cut one or two when both nuts ain't down. One yr I wanted a couple of AI bulls, I left about a dozen intact and figured I'd use the wonder product wadsworth manufacturing makes with surgical tubing. The guy I borrowed it from told me to practice on a broomstick, suck it up till it broke, then put it on bulls just a 'tad' looser. What a wreck! If you do try this, give a tetanus shot. And maybe trim the hair around the sheath--just for looks. If you get a chance, put one on that wadsworth guy.

Gee the Wadsworth bander has worked fine for me. :?


Are you left handed? :wink:

Do you mean the callicrate bander ?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I agree with you---I band at birth, unless they get ahead of me. Never had any trouble doing it at branding either. And I usually gotta cut one or two when both nuts ain't down. One yr I wanted a couple of AI bulls, I left about a dozen intact and figured I'd use the wonder product wadsworth manufacturing makes with surgical tubing. The guy I borrowed it from told me to practice on a broomstick, suck it up till it broke, then put it on bulls just a 'tad' looser. What a wreck! If you do try this, give a tetanus shot. And maybe trim the hair around the sheath--just for looks. If you get a chance, put one on that wadsworth guy.

Gee the Wadsworth bander has worked fine for me. :?


Are you left handed? :wink:

Do you mean the callicrate bander ?

Very similar but not the same one.

 

[bgc]

Ok so I just read this entire post, and I have to weigh in. First of all I band my bull calves at less than 30 days of age. We used to knife until I read the research on the pros and cons. Banding calves has many more benefits than the knife cut calves. The banded calves will both look better and act better than a bull calf. There is a lot of research to back up the fact that banded calves will both gain and grade better than knife cut calves. The difference is very small when either one is done before 30 days of age, but enough to make a difference at the feedlot with todays grain prices. If you are consistently selling good calves people will take notice and they will come looking for your cattle. The only true advantage to knife cutting is that you know its a steer when it leaves the chute. We did have an issue one fall with some bands that were a little dry rotted and I used them anyway. That was a bad idea. We had to get the calves back up and reband about half of the bulls.

Random Tips that I found useful and true.
1. The sooner you change the calves mind from a** to grass the better he will do.
2. Feeders and packers will always come back for good consistent cattle.
3. Banded calves will do better in the long run than a knife cut calf, which helps improve your reputation.
4. Bulls do horribly in the feedlot, so get them castrated!
5. Just because something worked out well the first time doesnt mean it will the next time.

If you really want to see the differences take 25 bull calves and band 5 less than 30 days old cut 5 at the same age. Then wait till branding or weaning and band 5 more and cut 5 more. Keep 5 as bulls and take weights as often as possible and see how they do. Then compare prices. When its all said and done you will see what works best in your area, and that is what you need to use.

Try that three different times and you will really have it nailed down.

 

[Gomez]

Thank you to all

 

[Big Swede]

A little bit off the topic but still on the castration area. I have knife cut thousands of calves in my life and have always cut the scrotum off. That's just how we do it around here. This last weekend I helped a neighbor brand that slits the scrotum. Man, you wouldn't think it would be that much different in the technique category, but it felt like I was working left handed all day. I was a little slower than the other guy cutting, and it was definately different but I did just fine. Like they always say, practice make perfect.