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Kt Pharo Seminars, etc

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Letting the cattle do the work by no means is an excuse for neglecting them. My cattle are never out of feed, water or shelter. They, however, are expected to go out and harvest these resources for me rather than me taking it out to them. The right kind of cow for the environment is necessary in order for the cows to do the work and not the rancher. Common Sense still needs to prevail.
 
KP is driving in the ditch. I sell calves by the pound and a moderate cow that can wean a heavy calf is good but there is a limit. When you knock out the performance out of your calves you will see the reality if you feed them yourself then try and sell a bunch of 900lb fats. :roll: Oh well as long as KP can sucker enough guys in that have deep pockets at least he will be richer. :roll:
 
I couldn't comment on KP's cattle as I have not yet been through them, but some of his philosophies make lots of sense. As you drive down the road have you ever noticed where the most grass is? In the ditch. Everyone takes the extreme to make a point. 1100# fats sell well here. You can aim for whatever size you want. Your boots might not fit my feet but I might still like them and order a pair in my size.
 
Soapweed, that's what I like about you...ask a question and get a dissertation! :clap: :clap: :D
Not sure how it addresses the point on small framed calves??

As for your dissertation, I agree with per..."Letting the cattle do the work by no means is an excuse for neglecting them."

Soapweed said:
Don't forget, he is probably making much more money from peddling his "expertise" and his bulls that supposedly "fit the program" than he is from actual proceeds of running his commercial cattle under these conditions.
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Why do so many begrudge Kit for making money promoting his philosophy? If his philosophy was worthless, he wouldn't be making money...now would he?????? And from what I understand, he runs his purebreds tougher than most cattlemen run their commercials.

I agree with Kit, not because I simply like what he has to say, but because I've been down the road of buying the wrong kind of high dollar seedstock. If a seedstock producer isn't tougher on his cattle than the average commercial cattleman, how is his seedstock going to help the commercial cattleman to be more profitable?

I was into low cost philosophy before I knew about Kit. As per said earlier, these ideas aren't unique to Kit...go back a half century or more and most all cattle were raised this way...out of necessity. I based my program from reading Bonsma, Voisin, and Lasater...I'm still waiting for my herd to fall apart, but the opposite has happened...they are healthier and more fertile than before(of course, after culling the ones that didn't fit the program).

By the way, where do you buy your bulls? You buy them from a "working" ranch...right???
 
One of the hardest things to do in the cattle industry, or any industry is to do something different. What will the neighbors think? Can you imagine the first guys to experiment with no-tilling their crops? All his neighbors fields were tilled black and here he is with all this crop residue that he is planting through. How many of his neighbors drove by and snickered about what he was doing. But if you can do a better job of farming and spend less money isn't that a win win situation? Innovators are very couragous people.

As the price of grain, hay, fuel, labor, repairs, etc. keep going up every year, isn't it about time to become innovative? The price of inputs will never go down, you know that as well as I do, so one way to increase profits is to spend less. That is the whole philosophy behind what Kit Pharo is preaching. I'm sure he doesn't care one way or the other if you make money this year or next, but he is just informing people there are ways to make doing that easier. Frame 7 cows and bulls will not make a profit in this scenario without a lot more expense.

I'm not convinced you need a frame 3 or 4 bull, maybe somewhere in the middle?
 
3 and 4 frame bulls ain't small if they're the right kind...they just ain't tall!!!! When I went 100% forage, Nature culled my 6 and 7 frame cows.

Kit's philosophy is about the bottom line, not the most income dollars per head.
 
I must agree to an extent. I have culled all of my 1300 plus cows and frame 6 plus bulls and now my costs are in half. My cows average 1100 pounds or less. Nothing under 1000 but 3 and they wean 500 pound calves . My cattle only get hay when there is ice on the ground and they stay fat year round. So there is something to that size thing. But if my calves are a little smaller frame at the auction and get a little less than others who cares it cost me half to raise the cow. Do that math!!!
 
I saw a bull at Kit's sale in Harrison, Ne. I think he was called "Moderator" and Kit says he was less than a 3 frame bull. The height of the bull was right at the top button on Kit's shirt. He weighed 1900 lbs.

I think we don't know what 3-4-5-6 frame bulls are. I know I was suprised.

Not that I intend to use a 3 frame bull...
 
Faster horses said:
I saw a bull at Kit's sale in Harrison, Ne. I think he was called "Moderator" and Kit says he was less than a 3 frame bull. The height of the bull was right at the top button on Kit's shirt. He weighed 1900 lbs.

I think we don't know what 3-4-5-6 frame bulls are. I know I was suprised.

Not that I intend to use a 3 frame bull...
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I think you are right Faster Horses--Over the years I've used many good bulls that mature never stood over 54 inches high at hip height- and probably never got 2000 lbs...It wasn't til a few years back looking at the Frame Scores chart that I realized that a 54 inch mature bull is not even a 4 frame as the charts lists 4 frame at 54.8 inches at 34+ months (mature)...
And the cows sired by those bulls have consistently for years brought in March/April calves that in October will average over 600 lbs.....

When you get talking 7 frame bulls (60.5+ inches mature)-- you are talking the same as a 15+ hand tall horse.... :shock:
 
Faster Horses, that's exactly right......most of us (myself included) would be surprised to realize how tall a 4 frame animal really is.
 
A Frame 3 bull bred to Frame 3 cows will only average carcasses that weigh just over 600 lbs when finished.

To me, that's leaving a lot of money on the table come payday.

Since you've gone to all the trouble and expense in trucking, feed, etc. to finish them, you're usually better off with a carcass that weighs around 900 and usually yields better.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1043w.htm
 
Just how tall is Kit???

A 21 month old, frame 3 bull is 49 inches tall! That is one fair inch more than 4 feet! A frame 3 yearling is 44 inches. I am a scotch over 5 feet tall, and 4 feet hits me right in the boobs. Unless Kit is a midget, this can't be.

I'll argue that Kit "downsizes" (they are actually larger framed than he claims) his cattle because it fits his marketing and mantra needs.

I say raise what ever meets your fancy. I will say that if you are retaining ownership and/or marketing cattle on the grid, the factors that most affect profitability are minimizing "out" carcasses; and having carcasses that push the upper acceptable limit in size (if the upper carcass limit is 950...those most profitable are the 949 pound carcasses.)

It is also proven in efficiency trials that efficient cattle come in all breeds and sizes. There are big framed efficient cattle, small framed efficient cattle, and moderate efficient cattle, just as there are inefficient cattle of all sizes and breeds.

Sorry to question Kit, Faster Horses...I just have a tough time believing he's that short!

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
Turkey Track Bar said:
Just how tall is Kit???

A 21 month old, frame 3 bull is 49 inches tall! That is one fair inch more than 4 feet! A frame 3 yearling is 44 inches. I am a scotch over 5 feet tall, and 4 feet hits me right in the boobs. Unless Kit is a midget, this can't be.

I'll argue that Kit "downsizes" (they are actually larger framed than he claims) his cattle because it fits his marketing and mantra needs.

I say raise what ever meets your fancy. I will say that if you are retaining ownership and/or marketing cattle on the grid, the factors that most affect profitability are minimizing "out" carcasses; and having carcasses that push the upper acceptable limit in size (if the upper carcass limit is 950...those most profitable are the 949 pound carcasses.)

It is also proven in efficiency trials that efficient cattle come in all breeds and sizes. There are big framed efficient cattle, small framed efficient cattle, and moderate efficient cattle, just as there are inefficient cattle of all sizes and breeds.

Sorry to question Kit, Faster Horses...I just have a tough time believing he's that short!

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
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:lol: You're not going to be stepping over many hot wires are you TTB. I like moderate cattle but between 5 and 6 frame cows are small enough for me personally. If a 3 frame bull weighs a ton, he's pushing the calvability envelope pretty hard unless he's 2 ribs longer than his neighbor.
 
Mike said:
...usually yields better.
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Yield is where the money is made, but if I'm not doing very many, I want them big. :wink: Cuts from a 600 lb. carcass is more consumer friendly.


I'm 5'10", Kit is a few inches shorter than me...I'd say 5'6" to 5'8".
 
Turkey Track Bar said:
A 21 month old, frame 3 bull is 49 inches tall! That is one fair inch more than 4 feet! A frame 3 yearling is 44 inches. I am a scotch over 5 feet tall, and 4 feet hits me right in the boobs. Unless Kit is a midget, this can't be.
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Now I've used lots of way of measuring cattle- marks on the gate posts- height my oiler was placed at-the fancy equine measuring stick my kids got me (so they didn't have to hold the bottom of the tape measure, when I was measuring horses)--BUT I've never before heard of "the BOOB height" measuring method :wink: :lol: :p :p
 
Oldtimer said:
Turkey Track Bar said:
A 21 month old, frame 3 bull is 49 inches tall! That is one fair inch more than 4 feet! A frame 3 yearling is 44 inches. I am a scotch over 5 feet tall, and 4 feet hits me right in the boobs. Unless Kit is a midget, this can't be.
Click to expand...

Now I've used lots of way of measuring cattle- marks on the gate posts- height my oiler was placed at-the fancy equine measuring stick my kids got me (so they didn't have to hold the bottom of the tape measure, when I was measuring horses)--BUT I've never before heard of "the BOOB height" measuring method :wink: :lol: :p :p
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I'm a visionary... :lol: :lol: :lol:






At least Lazy Ace thinks so :wink: Now he's all for hip heightin' bulls :wink:

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
We have to remember that it's more than just frame score and it's more than just weight.....it's a combination of the two.

A frame score 4 cow that weighs 1200 lbs is a wide, deep, soggy rip.

She will produce a calf that will finish at 1200 lbs. or better and she will not have any trouble calving. She'll spit them calves out with no problem at all.

Kit Pharo or not, I'd much rather have moderate to "short" cows that weigh around 1200 lbs. than "tall" pencil-gutted, slab-sided, dairy-looking things that weigh the same or a 100 lbs. or so more.

Keep in mind that an "average" frame 6 cow that weighs 1200 lbs., with four inches taken off her legs and that weight redistributed to where it counts, is now a frame 4 cow that weighs 1200 lbs. with excellent rib, depth, length and capacity!
 
movin' on said:
We have to remember that it's more than just frame score and it's more than just weight.....it's a combination of the two.

A frame score 4 cow that weighs 1200 lbs is a wide, deep, soggy rip.

She will produce a calf that will finish at 1200 lbs. or better and she will not have any trouble calving. She'll spit them calves out with no problem at all.

Kit Pharo or not, I'd much rather have moderate to "short" cows that weigh around 1200 lbs. than "tall" pencil-gutted, slab-sided, dairy-looking things that weigh the same or a 100 lbs. or so more.

Keep in mind that a frame 6 cow with four inches taken off her legs is now a frame 4 cow with the exact rib, depth, length and compacity!
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Movin' on...

I don't disagree a whole lot...but I'd take a good cow, big or small, anyday over a bad one of either. And, yes, there are bad of both.

I guess the point I was making was, I don't think Kit is being all that accurate/truthful in his frame scores. I think he "downsizes" his cattle. He probably actually has more 5's and 6's but is calling them 3's and 4's.

Kit said that his bull was a frame three. FH did not indicate what age, but even if he was mature bull, that would have been 52 inches (from Kit's own website.) I am sorry, but that is 4 feet 4 inches high. FH said the bull came to the top button of Kit's shirt, and I have no doubt she was correct. By that math, with where the bull lined up on Kit, things just don't come out square.

Maybe it's intentional, but probably not. There is about 2 inches difference in each frame score, for all ages of bulls. We just got done framing ours for our sale. If a bull is leaning forward and has his feet way under him, or has his feet behind will make a huge difference. Probably the most accurate system is the one in place at Decatur Co. Feeders that takes a photo as cattle walk by.

I like deep soggy cattle too. But, deep and soggy can come in all sizes. I happen to prefer 5.5 to 6 frame cattle that weigh somewhere around 1300-1400 pounds. They fit well in our environment. Our landlords lease on an AUM basis. They could care less if we run frame 2 or 10. For our $$$, and to keep the range at it's optimum while returning the most per AUM, we can not economically run frame 3 cattle. This maybe would be a different story if we did not lease a pretty good chunk of our outfit.

This is an interesting discussion. I see lots and lots of cattle in lots and lots of environments. I will be the first to admit that what works best here does not work best everywhere.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
TTB:

You're right on. I won't cull a cow based only on her "frame score". There's so much more to it than that. I am fond of cows that maintain their condition, raise a good calf, rebreed, and flourish in very average and real world conditions. If that cow happens to be a frame score 6, so be it. If she happens to be a frame score four, so be it.

The more uniform my cow herd has got over the years, the more I like it. At the same time, there are some cows that are maybe a little bigger or smaller than I like and kind of distract from the uniformity of the herd. I guarantee you this, though, there's a reason that they're still around!

If there are two things that I really think Kit and I agree on, it's these:

1. Maximum profits vs. Maximum production

2. Calving so that when a cow's needs are at her greatest, the ranch's production is at it's greatest.

I realize that I just opened myself up for all kinds of opposition, but I think those two points are stellar and are relevant for everyone. That doesn't mean that we all reach those goals the same way, but I think those two are very crucial.
 

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