• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Kt Pharo Seminars, etc

Help Support Ranchers.net:

I don't know how many of you have attended the Ranching for Profit seminars that Stan Parsons started and Dave Pratt has continued, but I know there was never any topic that revolved around cow size during that training. I'm pretty sure Kit Pharo has attended this week long seminar which teaches cutting expenses, calving in sync with nature, grazing year round, letting the cattle do the work, thinking outside the box, changing paradigms, and many other very interesting theories about actually making a profit in ranching.

Even though we have been increasing production like crazy the past 3 decades, we are not necessarily more profitable. I don't know what the next cattle cycle will bring but if we can't find a way to cut expenses some way it won't matter what size our cows are.

We could argue cow size till the cows come home, but everyone will probably stick with the size of cow that they are most comfortable with. If they are profitable, more power to ya.
 
Big Swede: I agree with you wholeheartedly. This cow size arguement will never go away and most of us will ultimately raise what we want to anyway. In recent years our operation has been able to graze cornstalks through the fall and winter and its interesting to watch which type of cows thrive with very little supplement. I try to show my dad the fleshing ability differences to influence his bull buying decisions but it is an uphill struggle.This cow arguement reminds me of an operation close to here back in the late 70's and early 80's. It was a so called well managed commercial Simmental operation that spent a lot of time AIing and sold a few bulls I believe. They had acess to quite a little state land that was darn cheap rent. The cattle just didn't fit this evironment and they lost the whole place in the mid 80's. Rather than changing their cattle operation they just kept going until it was gone.

The bottom line is always going to rule whether we have high priced grain or not. What is interesting to me is that most commercial producers that sell feeder cattle in my area really don't know what they should be selecting for in that they never retain ownership and they never talk to the feeder that buys their calves. They ultimately know so little about their cattle that it is scary. Their bull selection is mostly just based on what sells good at the salebarn. I am a relatively young guy but my personal reccomendation is to sit down with an order buyer sometime and ask them what direction things are going. You don't have to take every thing they say to heart but keep an open mind. And whatever direction you turn don't give up cowherd efficiency. Most operations weaned calf percentage vs. cows exposed is a whole lot more important than maximum pounds of calf weaned.
 
>> The bottom line is always going to rule whether we have high priced grain or not. What is interesting to me is that most commercial producers that sell feeder cattle in my area really don't know what they should be selecting for in that they never retain ownership and they never talk to the feeder that buys their calves. They ultimately know so little about their cattle that it is scary. Their bull selection is mostly just based on what sells good at the salebarn. I am a relatively young guy but my personal reccomendation is to sit down with an order buyer sometime and ask them what direction things are going. You don't have to take every thing they say to heart but keep an open mind. And whatever direction you turn don't give up cowherd efficiency. Most operations weaned calf percentage vs. cows exposed is a whole lot more important than maximum pounds of calf weaned.<<

That is one of the best posts I've ever seen on this board. Very sage advise.
 
nortexsook said:
>> The bottom line is always going to rule whether we have high priced grain or not. What is interesting to me is that most commercial producers that sell feeder cattle in my area really don't know what they should be selecting for in that they never retain ownership and they never talk to the feeder that buys their calves. They ultimately know so little about their cattle that it is scary. Their bull selection is mostly just based on what sells good at the salebarn. I am a relatively young guy but my personal reccomendation is to sit down with an order buyer sometime and ask them what direction things are going. You don't have to take every thing they say to heart but keep an open mind. And whatever direction you turn don't give up cowherd efficiency. Most operations weaned calf percentage vs. cows exposed is a whole lot more important than maximum pounds of calf weaned.<<

That is one of the best posts I've ever seen on this board. Very sage advise.
Click to expand...





:agree: :clap:
 
Lord help you if you make genetic decisions based on the advice of an order buyer. if you constantly chase where 'things' are perceived to be going you'll never catch up-EVER. Raise the size and type of cattle that thrive in your operations enviroment-not the enviroment you try and create for them. I just went on a roadtrip with one of the best ranchers I know. I talked him into feeding his 'cutbacks'-right now they're gaining 4'52 lbs/day at a .64 COG-just good plain angus ranch cattle. His comment to me was 'Those buyers lied to me for years and I believed them.'. Salebarns and order buyers make money on the numbers they handle-they can be purple billygoats for all they care. Most are good guys but the last place I'd go for advice on what to base my genetic decisions. We building our ration around a 1200 pound cow-after a few saskatchewan winters you usua;lly end up with 1200 pound cows. On cow size the only thing worse than a big stringy slabsided cow is a little stringy slab sided cow-they winter harder than anything.
 
So what is the next step to be low cost producers?

How many of us are ready to sell our haying equipment and graze year round? What percentage of our herd would we have to reduce to reach that goal? I've finally convinced myself to calve in May and June but it took me a long time to get to this point. I don't know why it's so hard to change some traditions but it is. Extremely hard!

Some of these ideas are so far outside the box that it's hard to even consider these changes, but it's being done all over the world so don't think it can't be done. A smaller calf crop would be less income but little or no expense to winter your cow herd would pay for itself many times over. Personally I haven't gotten to that point but isn't it intriguing? My Dad would freak if he thought I would actually not put up any hay in the summer. I will probably never get to that point, right or wrong but it really makes you think what is possible in this business.

I know some of you out there are doing these things to be low cost producers. How is it going? What are the pitfalls? I'd be very interested to hear from you.
 
NR: Not trying to pick a fight but there are some cattle buyers that will talk to you honestly. You have to understand that there are a lot of cattle producers who get most of their information at the local waterin hole and really don't know what they have or what they want to have.
 
A few years back, I thought we should crossbreed because of the benefits. I visited with our order buyer about it and he discouraged it. He said we were ahead of times with our straightbred Angus. He knows where our calves wind up and they sell into a niche market (restaurant trade) and to just keep doing what we were doing. Now last year, he paid a premium for our calves.
So some order buyers are into helping with these kinds of decisions.
They know what happens AFTER the calves leave the ranch.

And just for the sake of (another) discussion, I notice that most of our customers have NOT gone the way of "natural" because they don't think they get paid enough to do it. Feeding mineral with CTC in it kicks them out of the 'natural programs'. They just won't be without feeding CTC a couple of weeks before calving until they turn the bulls out. Just makes so much less work because the calves don't get sick and the cows (especially 2 year olds) breed up better. FWIW
 
Hey some of my best friends are order buyers but when you think of it-they'd of told you to raise 700 pound buckskin calves five years ago-now it's black calves-genetically it's almost impossible to move a cowherd in unison with the whims and fancies of the marketplace-i've never had one show any interest in looking at a grid sheet or a closeout either. I just think there's better sources for info-one that's sits dusty and neglected most times is 'common sense'.
 
WB, you were correct in your previous post in that producers have to educate themselves about their business to know the difference between good information and bad information regardless of where it comes from. IMO, there is more information coming out of the university system that MISS GUIDES producers than from any other source!!!!

If you want to learn something from an order buyer, ask him what he buys for himself to feed out...I'd almost guarantee that it will be well muscled, off-colored calves that he knows gain and yield as good or better than the straight blacks or reds that he buys for his clients.

The calf that will make money throughout the system is the one that has a lean muscle yield well over 60%. Those kind of calves don't come from large framed cows that tend to resemble Holsteins.


Big Swede said:
I know some of you out there are doing these things to be low cost producers. How is it going? What are the pitfalls?
Click to expand...

The first pitfall would be to go into winter without any hay!!!! Regardless of the system you setup (and it will be different depending on where you live and the natural resources of your ranch), the bottom line has to be that your cows have something to eat every day. You need to develop the mindset that hay is insurance feed, not your primary feed source(if possible).

You have already identified the first and most important step, synchronize your cows highest nutritional needs with your ranches time of most abundant forage. This is where the rub is...you know that you can calve early and wean a 600 lb. calf or calve later and wean a 450 lb calf. Let's back-figure using Kit's logic...
If your ranch is capable of producing 100,000 lbs. of calves, which would you rather have the income from...
100,000 lbs. of 600 lb. calves or 100,000 lbs. of 450 lb. calves?

Now consider, as you rightly pointed out, the maintenance cost for those late spring/summer calving cows that produced those 450 lb calves will be less that the maintenance cost for the cows producing the 600 lb calves.

And the list goes on...

The key is to produce the maximum pounds of beef the natural resources of your ranch is capable of producing without pulling out that check book and opening a bag...not an easy thing to do.

Just my worthless opinion! :wink:
 
Northern Rancher said:
Hey some of my best friends are order buyers but when you think of it-they'd of told you to raise 700 pound buckskin calves five years ago-now it's black calves-genetically it's almost impossible to move a cowherd in unison with the whims and fancies of the marketplace-i've never had one show any interest in looking at a grid sheet or a closeout either. I just think there's better sources for info-one that's sits dusty and neglected most times is 'common sense'.
Click to expand...


But NR they would always tell you to raise a uniform group of one color. Whether that be BWF Char X,Black or Red Brockle face. I doubt one would say maybe run a Longhorn in for some color.
 
I find it interesting that everyone talks about 450 pound calves. (even Kit himself) The truth of the matter, according to Kit's website, is that his calf crop averages a 570 lb. adjusted weaning weight.

That seems like the best of both worlds.....calves born in late spring to highly efficient, low input cows that end up weighing as much as most people's calves at weaning. I know, people are going to claim that their calves are heavier than 570 at weaing, and a lot of peoples calves probably are, but by how much and at what cost?
 
In the past I have seen green 5 or 6 weight calves dollar out nearly as much as my 8 weight steers time and time again. It drives a guy nuts but it happens year after year. Back when corn was $2.50 it didn't bother me so much because we could put weight on fairly cheap. Now it's a whole different story. Aggressive backgrounding rations are not cheap.

Don't you think that green calves that hit the late spring market will always be in demand? I know you can't maintain them for free but it's cheaper than pushing them.

I have also heard though that heavier calves will be in more demand when corn is high because they won't need as much time on the finishing ration. That may be the case if you sold light calves in the fall. Timing is everything when it comes to marketing.
 
In the past I have seen green 5 or 6 weight calves dollar out nearly as much as my 8 weight steers time and time again. It drives a guy nuts but it happens year after year. Back when corn was $2.50 it didn't bother me so much because we could put weight on fairly cheap. Now it's a whole different story. Aggressive backgrounding rations are not cheap.

Don't you think that green calves that hit the late spring market will always be in demand? I know you can't maintain them for free but it's cheaper than pushing them.

I have also heard though that heavier calves will be in more demand when corn is high because they won't need as much time on the finishing ration. That may be the case if you sold light calves in the fall. Timing is everything when it comes to marketing.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Hey some of my best friends are order buyers but when you think of it-they'd of told you to raise 700 pound buckskin calves five years ago-now it's black calves-genetically it's almost impossible to move a cowherd in unison with the whims and fancies of the marketplace-i've never had one show any interest in looking at a grid sheet or a closeout either. I just think there's better sources for info-one that's sits dusty and neglected most times is 'common sense'.
Click to expand...

How many producers are trying to do just that with the latest, revolutionizing, new university silver bullet...epd, gene mapping, ultrasound, crossbreeding, AIing with bulls raised in an environment nothing like real cows live in....
 
What about using the latest technology in unison with bulls that are raised in a bit tougher enviroment than your cows run in. We have breeds being promoted where the seedstock isn't even raised on this continent-some are being promoted on pictures of one herd or one bull-production figures from very few herds or individuals. Kind of like cattle experts-the farther away from home they get-the smarter they appear lol. It doesn't matter if you are A'I'ing or natural breeding-the genetics you use have to fit your situation. Most ranchers that are still going today only need to tweak things a bit not go through some wholesale genetic overhaul.
 

Latest posts

Top