Larry Leonhardt/Feb. Western Farmer Stockman

[Mike]

For one, I don't want to back to the "good old days" when calves only weaned a couple of hundred lbs. and took 3 years to finish with a terrible feed to gain ratio.

There will opponents of progress no matter what industry you talk about.

 

[PPRM]

Hmmmmm...I have been mulling this over...

I am a commercial guy....I don't need to find flaws, so why not crossbreed to get the extra pounds and keep on keeping the moderate hiefers that look classy?

THe linebreeding is really inbreeding. Lets call a spade a spade....That is where the Dwarfism came from years ago and is the source of my hesitation against it....If the guy that does this has producers, he has culled pretty hard....Not a bad thing...And, breeding a good bull to my unrelated females should work.

I have some commercial nieghbors I would not hesitate to pick a better calf from one of his great cows to use for a bull....

Maybe the problem is more the extremes and also the guys wanting to sell Bulls rather than steers, greed...


Just a few quick thoughts, wife says i need to hit the shower for church, so....maybe I'll finish them later, LOL,

PPRM

 

[Badlands]

Jason,

It strikes me that you must be about "more is better".

What trait was so bad in the foundation bull that you can't use him anymore?


As Jim Lents would say, "Motion, Commotion, Promotion".


If your cattle were in need of what the bull brought, how can that be so bad now?

If they were so right then, how can they be so wrong now?

Sure, it is true that times change, and 99% of us don't need 50's and 60's genetics anymore, but what was so wrong about the performance level of the 80's? I find most of those cattle just about right.

To imply that they are so wrong now begs the question, "How did we ever stay in business with these cattle that were so wrong?"



Badlands

 

[RobertMac]

As Jim Lents would say, "Motion, Commotion, Promotion".

I thought Larry said that? :???:

A cows job has not changed...to be profitable, she has to produce a calf that is worth more than her maintenance cost every year...good market or bad. The way to minimize maintenance cost is to have a herd of cows that are adapted to the natural resources that occur naturally on the ranch. That herd is built with the daughters out of the good doing cows through proper selection.

Now, if you are using some AI stud that has had a feed bunk in front of him his entire life(so he can express his full genetic potential), you are going to have to put a feed bunk in front of his calves to achieve the same level of performance...no free lunches.

If you use a bull out of that cow in your herd that you have kept every heifer out of and every one of those heifers have made good cows, won't he be more likely to produce you the type of cattle you need to be profitable?

Like Jim Lents told me, every time you bring in an outside bull, you re-shuffle your genetic deck.

 

[PPRM]

As Jim Lents would say, "Motion, Commotion, Promotion".

I thought Larry said that? :???:

A cows job has not changed...to be profitable, she has to produce a calf that is worth more than her maintenance cost every year...good market or bad. The way to minimize maintenance cost is to have a herd of cows that are adapted to the natural resources that occur naturally on the ranch. That herd is built with the daughters out of the good doing cows through proper selection.

Now, if you are using some AI stud that has had a feed bunk in front of him his entire life(so he can express his full genetic potential), you are going to have to put a feed bunk in front of his calves to achieve the same level of performance...no free lunches.

If you use a bull out of that cow in your herd that you have kept every heifer out of and every one of those heifers have made good cows, won't he be more likely to produce you the type of cattle you need to be profitable?

Like Jim Lents told me, every time you bring in an outside bull, you re-shuffle your genetic deck.

I get paid on Carcass performance...Not many did in the 80's.......

I am talking outside my farmers market deal now...The most profitable cattle I ever raised had over 850 pound carcasses and graded Choice 1....THings like yield, yield grade and quality grade are very important....

I still keep a eye on udders, breeding and calving ease.

Another thing is what cows are you breeding to? The ones to make replacement hiefers or the ones that could work as a terminal cross?

As far as Hybrid vigor, you still have to match things up. Just because a Brahma and a Charlais are very different genetically, does not make for a good cross. The best cattle I have are AngusxSimmental crosses. Not only the vigor, but compliment each other....I just have to choose the moderate females from tis group. THat is good as it allows me to sell the big females...

Wife is yelling at me agian as we are going to friends for lunch, so, later, LOL,


PPRM

 

[RobertMac]

PPRM, you post on here that you can't get good grass carcasses...I tell you how I get the carcasses I have(by following the ideas of Larry Leonhardt, Jim Lents, Tom Lasater, Kit Pharo, Jan Bonsma)...now you are going to tell me I'm wrong! :roll:

 

[PPRM]

Robertmac......Compare apples to apples...

I was refering to a cows job description not changing...Carcass data is more important than ever. In my area, all payments are grid based. Igmore that and you ca easily end up with Select 4's that will be discounted heavily...

The Grass Carcass wieght is a very common comment I have read from those that have tried....I also take my cattle to the same USDA plant as some of the more well known Grass fat guys around here. I see better scrubs at the saleyard.....So my comments on grass fat was an attempt to do better....

I will get over 800 pound carcasses on my corn fed program in 16-18 months. I sort and feed my own and generally get over 80% Choice...Others that have done the Grass fat deal relate to me that they need over 24 months to get that size....This is anywhere that you have winter...


Kit Pharo's bulls resulting in that size carcasses? That is so opposite of everything I have ever read him talk about....And talk about the king of promotion! You really wiill never have to worry about me bidding up your Bull Source.....

PPRM

 

[handydandy]

Linebreeding didn't cause drawfism. Did not, cannot, will not!

Hmmmmm...I have been mulling this over...



THe linebreeding is really inbreeding. Lets call a spade a spade....That is where the Dwarfism came from years ago and is the source of my hesitation against it....If the guy that does this has producers, he has culled pretty hard....Not a bad thing...And, breeding a good bull to my unrelated females should work.


PPRM

 

[PPRM]

Handy,

Show the Proof...Other than yelling it cannot, willnot.....ect.......

And where I come from, we call breeding relatives inbreeding.....

Horse folks love to call it "Double Bred" Giving the connotation of twice the power, yet the reality is the increase in the chance of recessives lining up..........


PPRM

 

[Anonymous]

Most the "experts" agree that linebreeding does not cause dwarfism-- but just like linebreeding will cause the positive traits in a bloodline to show up faster, it will also cause the negative traits to show up faster too...

Dwarfism is caused by the dwarf gene- that both the cow and bull have to have-- and even "some" of the top fad stud bull lines carry it... How many is not really known yet--They just developed a test to test for it ...

I've seen inbred herds that were nothing more than a bunch of mongrels- and I've seen linebred cattle that were top of the line...Closed herd Linebreeding was done by some of the college experiment stations for years...Linebreeding takes a lot of making right choices for the desired traits and heavy culling on "any" mistakes....

 

[handydandy]

Handy,

Show the Proof...Other than yelling it cannot, willnot.....ect.......

And where I come from, we call breeding relatives inbreeding.....

Horse folks love to call it "Double Bred" Giving the connotation of twice the power, yet the reality is the increase in the chance of recessives lining up..........


PPRM

Heck, You show the proof! I have done the research, get off you but and research it

All cattle are somewhat related, so are you saying all are inbred?

 

[handydandy]

Handy,

Show the Proof...Other than yelling it cannot, willnot.....ect.......

And where I come from, we call breeding relatives inbreeding.....

Horse folks love to call it "Double Bred" Giving the connotation of twice the power, yet the reality is the increase in the chance of recessives lining up..........


PPRM

Heck, You show the proof! I have done the research, get off you but and research it

All cattle are somewhat related, so are you saying all are inbred?

 

[PPRM]

Handy,

How did you ever come up with that?

Ok, the Dwarf gene comes from an ancestor...Most likely, relatives will carry that. Breeding relatives will most likely result in two dwarf genes pairing up and the result being a dwarf...

And hell no, I don' believe all cattle are inbred..there is genetic variation between breeds and within a breed......However, I do know guys that use 5 year old Bulls....You can pretty well tell when one of those bred his own daughter....

Handy, you seem to want something to be so true that you will jump on the first sound good statement...

Like I said, I waited a few days to mull it over before I posted. I knew I had a definite opinion, so wanted to be open to something different....I stated my reluctance and rather than anything concrete, I get a "Cannot, willnot reply" I ask for proof and you say, "You prove it"...Ummm....Yeah you are standing on really firm ground there.....



I hear most breeding myths in the Horse world...Look at Impressive....Talk about inbred...Ummmm...Excuse me, "Line Bred or Triple Bred" LOL....Yet, the things I hear about HYPP that are so untrue..I linked a facts page....


http://www.foundationhorses.com/impressive_syndrom.htm

Yet, we have a lot of Impressives Duece foals around this area that are great cowhorses....All it took was something else in the geneticss and you get some horses with no HYPP gene...Great thing about them is you can get a great horse cheap because of the "Hype" and misinformation about the disease....

PPRM

 

[handydandy]

Handy, you seem to want something to be so true that you will jump on the first sound good statement...

PPRM

I'm glad to know you have me figured out in a couple of sentences, You must have an unbelievable ability to read people!~ :roll:

You are the one that stated linebreeding/inbreeding caused drawfism. Give me some proof that is true. Just because someone says it is, doesn't make it so. I simply stated that linebreeding doesn't cause drawfism. That is a fact.

Also you stated:" That is where the Dwarfism came from years ago and is the source of my hesitation against it"

If linebreeding doesn't cause a dwarf, will you now consider linebreeding?

I would also like to say that linebreeding is not the act of breeding to two related animals. Linebreeding should be looked at as a process. To accomplish the goals a breeder has when using linebreeding takes generations of matings. You have to be consistent and cull like crazy expecially in the early generations.


Best of luck

 

[PPRM]

Handy, you seem to want something to be so true that you will jump on the first sound good statement...

PPRM

I'm glad to know you have me figured out in a couple of sentences, You must have an unbelievable ability to read people!~ :roll:

You are the one that stated linebreeding/inbreeding caused drawfism. Give me some proof that is true. Just because someone says it is, doesn't make it so. I simply stated that linebreeding doesn't cause drawfism. That is a fact.

Also you stated:" That is where the Dwarfism came from years ago and is the source of my hesitation against it"

If linebreeding doesn't cause a dwarf, will you now consider linebreeding?

I would also like to say that linebreeding is not the act of breeding to two related animals. Linebreeding should be looked at as a process. To accomplish the goals a breeder has when using linebreeding takes generations of matings. You have to be consistent and cull like crazy expecially in the early generations.


Best of luck

Kewl...you go your way and I'll go mine,

PPRM

 

[Badlands]

However, I do know guys that use 5 year old Bulls....You can pretty well tell when one of those bred his own daughter

The reason you can tell is because the bulls are carrying genetic garbage. They very garbage that the inbreeding revealed. If the breeder of the bull had been inbreeding, the genes would have shown themselves earlier allowing for culling. In other words, your neighbors would have never bought the bull in the first place, as he wouldn't have ever been born.

As we understand it, inbreeding does not cause defects, it only allows us to see them.

The most profitable cattle I ever raised had over 850 pound carcasses

That's a no-brainer. Carcass weight is the single largest contributor to INDIVIDUAL animal income. However, maximizing carcass weight of the individual animal ignores the cost of the larger cow. A deeper level of pencil pushing will reveal that increasing cow numbers and numbers of live calves will contribute to more TOTAL carcass weight FROM THE RANCH, than will maximizing INDIVIDUAL carcass weight FROM THE FEEDLOT.

RobertMac, I heard Jim say it first, doesn't mean he did. If you got improvement in carcass using Pharo and Bonsma, you got lucky. I would sure attribute it to the others.

Badlands

 

[AX-]

Dwarfism is not because of linebreeding. Linebreeding is the way to lock in both good and bad traits. If it was used more in the past, the wrecks caused by dwarfism would not have happened. Linebreeding would have shown the problems earlier before the genetics were so widespread. Linebreeding isn't for everyone, but it will sure find the garbage before it is spread throughout the country. EXT was a linebred bull, last I checked he was a decent bull. Linebreeding may have locked in an attitude problem, but also locked in some very favorable genes.

 

[badroute]

I for one believe that the majority of the good, solid sires of yesterday were replaced more often than not by fads rather than genetic flaws.

It seems that most purebred breeders are continually trying to hit a home run rather than staying on a course for continued long term improvement. I beleive this type of thinking has started to get the Angus industry into trouble and some of the major players have started to realize this. Luckily we still have guys like Leonhardt, Ohlde, and DeBoo who have stayed on course to help bail us out of the mess alot of the "big dogs" have gotten us into.

I for one am tired of being the registered breeders gineau pig and i dont think I am alone in thinking this.

 

[Jason]

Times have changed. Mike was right about not wanting to go back to 2-300 pound weaning weights.

The economy won't let you do that anyway. Costs are too high for that kind of slack production.

The best progress I ever made was by using high accuracy EPD's.

To get a new bull to add to my genetic base, using the similar range of EPD's has made it so I am not adding in as many "different" genes used to happen.

For any old enough to have been raising cattle when all we had was in herd performance data, and you would buy the top gainer, and you got the smallest calf crop.... his performance was a fluke. The next time you would buy a middle performer and he turned out to be the best bull you ever had. Then you would lose it in the next middle of the road bull. You were at the mercy of feeding ability rather than the genetics.

The overall cow herd has been improved vastly in the last 30 years. Nutrition has improved. However there are still those who raise anything that has 4 legs and a tail. True genetic improvement is based on many factors.

I do know using a bull and ignoring his lack of EPD's can be a mistake. When you can lose 50 pounds at weaning in one generation by using a "carcass" bull it gets pretty obvious.

This industry needs carcass qualities, but we need to keep the efficiency of decent weaning weights at the same time.

I agree many purebred breeders should be culled, but when you find one that can shows he/she is concerned with multiple traits you should work with that one to achieve a better herd.

 

[PureCountry]

Not to pick a fight, but I don't mind a good debate, by your reasoning here Jason, I get the impression that you would consider me and Kaiser poor seedstock producers. We don't use EPD's, there are none to use with Galloways and Welsh anyway, we don't pay any attention to weaning weights, and let Mother Nature guide our culling. Those who come in empty for whatever reason are shipped, that way, her infertile line is not carried on in a herd bull to some poor commercial man. Poor feet and udders are culled so as to not be passed on either. The same goes for attitudes.

What I'm getting at here, is we put our focus solely on traits that equate directly into profit, NOT PRODUCTION. Keep in mind before your reply that I'm not really comparing apples to apples, since you seem to be talking about programs that feed their cattle set rations to winter them, and track performance data and such. Ours is a grass-based operation, no grain for cows or breeding bulls/females, and with calving in May/June/July, we have no use for weaning weights. Either they bring in a healthy calf unassisted, or they become beef instead of producing it. So, does that make me a poor seedstock producer? Will this system not improve our genetic base, and ultimately the base of our customer's herds? Share your thoughts with me, because I believe that putting more pressure on our cows to produce with fewer inputs, will make for better stock for our customers.