• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Major Debate!!

Red Robin said:
Turkey Track Bar said:
Northern Rancher said:
Geez the few calves we got off him look pretty good-what was the problem there-lin gering leachmanitus lol.
Click to expand...

NR:

Are these your first calves off ML? We have our third calf crop off of him on the ground now, we used the rest of our semen this year, and likely will not buy more. In my opinion, Major League is a damn good heifer bull. His calves generally look good now, but pretty much fall apart as they age. We actually have gotten along decent with him, but for a bull that has probably sired calves out of the best cows down here, you sure don't see anything too spectacular. We had one pretty good bull out of him last year, and I've seen a really good heifer calf raised by Tim Schick, that sold in the Bet on Red Sale last fall in Reno.

After those, most are pretty plain. Have you seen the bull himself??? I have, and I'd say there is a reason Genex is still using his calf picture. Further, his feet are horrid...a general problem the Red Angus breed needs to fix, and Major League sure isn't helping the problem. Actually generally speaking, Cherokee Canyon isn't helping the feet problem.

There are better Cherokee Canyon sons out there...LCC New Chapter being one of them.

I'm glad he's worked out good for you...I hope they stay that way.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
Click to expand...
I liked Cassie Johnsons march heifer calf at denver. If my memory is correct , she's a Major League. I sure havn't seen many more I liked alot. This is a nice stout calf NR has. What kind of foot trouble does Major League have TTB? Small feet, no heel, etc.
Click to expand...

Red Robin:

We didn't stay for the show, and I guess I don't remember her having a ML heifer, but will sure take your word for it, as from what I've seen you know a good 'un when you see one!

I too like NR's calf...whether I'd use him as a herd sire, I don't know. But that isn't my decision to make either! I personally disagree with using a "composite" as a herd sire, but again that's just my personal opinion.

As for foot problems, well, it looks to me that ML's toes get long (when you see him at stud, you can tell they are continually trimming on him.) Now I'd say that is because maybe his heel is too short, or maybe being structurally incorrect. It seems that straight shouldered cattle don't get long toes, but those with too much slope to their shoulder do. This is just my general observation, I really have nothing to prove or disprove it. I have to admit, having bad feet is something new to me-since moving to the Dakotas. I was raised in the "Rocky" Mountains, and with so many rocks there were not many opporunities for a long toed anything!

What do you think causes them??? I am learning though, that there seems to be a genetic component as well. Maybe they eat too much, and founder?

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
I guess several things can contribute to long toes. Usually I would think it would be hoof wall slope . I like the hoof wall to grow more strait up and down. Lots of long toed cows hoof wall grows at too flat of an angle or more forward...does that make sense. Having said that TTB I am on rock also. We usually don't have foot troubles , especially long toes, without genetic troubles. The long toes I get or have got have been toes that curl or twist so they are off the ground . That is certainly genetic. Those go to town. I have never had a normally flat long toed cow. Too many rocks.

Here's a pic of Cassies heifer.
SLGN-Raylee-511Rsm.jpg
 
Most bad footed cattle are weak in the pasterns-a little down in the heel-Dave Nichols seems to grasp what kind of feet we need in my country as good as anybody-most cattle I've been around in Montana run on raspy enough ground that they keep worn off pretty good-not like our peatmoss meadows. We always run homeraised bulls for clean up-i'll take a composite bull opuyt of one of my old proven cows any day of the week-they feed right along with the rest. In fact were about to flush three cows-two purebred and one commercial cow-should get a good set of half brothers to run cleanup with or heaven forbid even sell lol.
 
I had three cows within a week of each other a few years back come up stifled. All three had level hooks to pin lines. They all three also were long quartered thus their stifle joint was low or far away in relation to their hooks to pins line. I wonder if it put more stress on the joint. I've been watching but havn't had any come up stifled since. Any thoughts? Could have been they were just old. :lol:
 
I think stifled cows can be caused from not enough calcium when they were weaned to 4 years of age. Adding a high calcium mineral has corrected this problem for us. We used to get quite a few stifles and no longer do.

TTB, I think you are onto something talking about sloping shoulders perhaps causing long toes. With horses, the pastern slope usually follows the slope of the shoulder, so why wouldn't that be the same with cattle? I never made the coorelation until you mentioned that on this thread. So a sloping shoulder creates a sloping pastern, which allows the toes to grow longer than a steeper shouldered, steeper pasterned critter. It makes sense to me.
 
Faster horses said:
I think stifled cows can be caused from not enough calcium when they were weaned to 4 years of age. Adding a high calcium mineral has corrected this problem for us. We used to get quite a few stifles and no longer do. .
Click to expand...
They were all on the same mineral. I don't doubt the cause but the odd thing to me is that the first stifles were the same hip structure. Anyone had a really sloping rumped cow stifle? I'm curious.
Faster horses said:
TTB, I think you are onto something talking about sloping shoulders perhaps causing long toes. With horses, the pastern slope usually follows the slope of the shoulder, so why wouldn't that be the same with cattle? I never made the coorelation until you mentioned that on this thread. So a sloping shoulder creates a sloping pastern, which allows the toes to grow longer than a steeper shouldered, steeper pasterned critter. It makes sense to me.
Click to expand...
While I don't want a coonfooted cow with real sloping pasturns ,I also want some cushion in the pasturn joint. It seems like it'd be especially important on bulls which are lunging off their back pasturns and coming down on their front pasturns breeding cows.
 
Faster horses said:
I think stifled cows can be caused from not enough calcium when they were weaned to 4 years of age. Adding a high calcium mineral has corrected this problem for us. We used to get quite a few stifles and no longer do.

TTB, I think you are onto something talking about sloping shoulders perhaps causing long toes. With horses, the pastern slope usually follows the slope of the shoulder, so why wouldn't that be the same with cattle? I never made the correlation until you mentioned that on this thread. So a sloping shoulder creates a sloping pastern, which allows the toes to grow longer than a steeper shouldered, steeper pasterned critter. It makes sense to me.
Click to expand...

Actually FH...horses are really what got me to thinking about the relationship between slope of shoulder and length of toe/hoof on especially the front feet.

I learned a ton about structure in livestock in Livestock Judging in college. And one of the things I put together is that straight shoulder of any specie walk with their head down, and their backs arched. I also learned that the angle of the shoulder impacts the angle of all of the rest of the joints in the body, with more impact obviously on the fore limbs rather than the hind limbs.

Well, after livestock judging, which I really loved, I was recruited to judge horses, which I loved even more. From that I have a couple of close friends/former teammates who trained pleasure horses pretty successfully, and in turn rode hunters too.

I finally one day asked if they selected pleasure horses to be straighter shouldered, because the "ideal" pleasure horse is to carry their head at the point of the wither (which is probably a lower than natural position for the "average horse") and have a "rounded" appearance. They really couldn't give me any answers but we started watching...and sure enough most of the good (didn't scotch, actually carried the correct gait, had rhythm, cadence, etc.) pleasure horses were straighter shouldered than say a hunter horse or reiner. So, then we started watching the angles of the leg joints, and sure enough the pleasure horses were almost always straighter on the front legs, and had more "flex" or "drive" on their hind legs. The hunters, almost to a tee were the due opposite on their front, and certainly not as pronounced with flex and drive on the rear, I suppose because hunters should have a more level appearance.

So, I started asking how they shoe the different horses...and pleasure horses are almost always shod with more heal, whereas hunter and race horses almost always have heal taken off to extend their reach, and in the case of hunters make them move "flatter" and with a longer stride. Coincidentally, Lazy Ace's family has been running races horses for over 50 years...and the vast majority of those horses have a correct slope, to maybe even too much slope to the shoulder, and I'd say carried more natural toe than horses that haven't necessarily been selected for speed. As well, because of the method of shoeing, that is take more heal, race horses and hunters seem to have more problems with their knees.

I think, that over the years we have selected cattle to have a strong, level top, and a long, level stride, and in turn, and certainly unintentially been putting pressure on the heal of cattle, and thus lengthened out the toe, because of adding more slope to the shoulder.

Now, that being said, I don't want to select for "straight" shouldered cattle, but I also think we should give some merit to the ideal 45 degree angle of the shoulder, rather than a longer, more sloping shoulder.

Any others care to chime in...

This is a long way from science, just my crazy observation, most likely formed after spending a million hours watching pleasure horses late at night!!!

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
I have often looked in the stud books at bulls offered. In the early 80's I started noticing the Angus cattle were getting a steeper shoulder. Take Pine Drive, for instance. He had a shoulder more like a Chinina, when you compared bulls. There were others as well.

As for shoeing horses with more heel, from what I have been taught, that will result in problems. We are good friends with Gene Ovnicek, who designed the world racing plate and is the founder of EDSS (equine digital support system) and Natural Balance Shoeing. When he first presented that shoe to some racing authorities, they proclaimed that at that time, only a low percentage of race horses were retiring sound. With this shoe, they predicted many more horses would retire sound. Gene doesn't believe in a lot of heel, period. He is the person that is on RFD-TV with Dennis Reis. When you attend one of Gene's clinics, he will astound you when he drives a nail through the front of the hoof. I mean clear through the toe. Starts at the bottom and drives the nail until the sharp end protrudes through the top of the hoof. And the horse just stands there. What he is showing is that horses need proper balance, not high heels and long toes.

Now how does this correlate to cattle? Guess I got off the subject. :?

Gene makes some wonderful aluminum shoes that are pre-shaped and fit very well, once a shoer understands his philosphy. He has studied the wild horses in the Pryor mountains, taking measurements each time the horses are caught for any reason, thus the Natural Balance name.

TTB, I found it interesting your comment on the pleasure horses. I'm happy that you mentioned the hind quarters. I always hated the peanut rolling and how they made those horses be so much on their front-end. And of course, that is where most of the bearing weight is.

Tell me, do your in-laws have problems with their horses staying sound
when being raced? I am merely curious because of the way you mentioned the horses are shod.

Very interesting your conclusions about the shoulder inaction with the feet of cattle. I'm going to re-read your post. Very much food for thought.
 
Faster horses said:
I have often looked in the stud books at bulls offered. In the early 80's I started noticing the Angus cattle were getting a steeper shoulder. Take Pine Drive, for instance. He had a shoulder more like a Chinina, when you compared bulls. There were others as well.

As for shoeing horses with more heel, from what I have been taught, that will result in problems. We are good friends with Gene Ovnicek, who designed the world racing plate and is the founder of EDSS (equine digital support system) and Natural Balance Shoeing. When he first presented that shoe to some racing authorities, they proclaimed that at that time, only a low percentage of race horses were retiring sound. With this shoe, they predicted many more horses would retire sound. Gene doesn't believe in a lot of heel, period. He is the person that is on RFD-TV with Dennis Reis. When you attend one of Gene's clinics, he will astound you when he drives a nail through the front of the hoof. I mean clear through the toe. Starts at the bottom and drives the nail until the sharp end protrudes through the top of the hoof. And the horse just stands there. What he is showing is that horses need proper balance, not high heels and long toes.

Now how does this correlate to cattle? Guess I got off the subject. :?

Gene makes some wonderful aluminum shoes that are pre-shaped and fit very well, once a shoer understands his philosphy. He has studied the wild horses in the Pryor mountains, taking measurements each time the horses are caught for any reason, thus the Natural Balance name.

TTB, I found it interesting your comment on the pleasure horses. I'm happy that you mentioned the hind quarters. I always hated the peanut rolling and how they made those horses be so much on their front-end. And of course, that is where most of the bearing weight is.

Tell me, do your in-laws have problems with their horses staying sound
when being raced? I am merely curious because of the way you mentioned the horses are shod.

Very interesting your conclusions about the shoulder inaction with the feet of cattle. I'm going to re-read your post. Very much food for thought.
Click to expand...

FH:

I guess I shouldn't say how they are shod...just my perception or maybe assumption (and you know what ASSUME does!) that they tend to take a lot of heal off to get them to flatten out and extend their stride. I know when you watch horses on the track run, they almost seem to over-extend or over reach with their front legs.

I am probably not the person to answer your question about whether the horses stay sound on the track. I kinda give Grandma and Grandpa a wide berth when talking about the horses running!!! But for the most part I think they stay sound. I have no idea what shoes they use, except I do think that they're aluminum. I know one filly had some bone chips in her knee a couple years ago. She's now kinda chronically lame, not because of that but because she tried to cut her hoof off in a fence, and didn't heal the best, despite Lazy Ace's best efforts. They are sure sound at home. A couple when you're trying to catch them, a little too sound :wink:

I think that our cattle today are much better structured overall than those of the 80's and even mid 90's. But then again, in general I'm a little more partial to today's more moderate cattle too. I think we've really improved (maybe even to the point, of heading toward some issues) hind leg structure in cattle. In the 80's if they weren't post legged, they weren't given a chance, in the places of "popular opinion," i.e., show ring, semen studs, etc. Today, it seems that we have more set, in some cattle, so much more so set, that issues may arise from the other standpoint.

That's one thing about the livestock industry...especially hogs and cattle...the pendulum really swings. Hogs just swing faster and more often that cattle!

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
Robin,

I hate to ask a stupid question, but what exactly do you mean by not as fancy as you like your show steers. I guess I don't really understand the term fancy. Can anyone help?
 
Means that they are too practical to be show steers, lol.... I don't know what it means but my neighbor is always talking about his fancy cattle this and fancy cattle that.. From what I cant ell is that they have a lot more bone, more hair and seem to be straighter in the legs than my not so fancy cattle, lol. I used to have Maine Bullls and AIed to a few too for a couple years and I had some fancy calves..... They fed well too but I don't think they would make good momma cows for what I was looking for.
 
Jusy finishing up an a'i' job on a herd with some full blood Maines-big old girls for sure. This guy has a set of Leachman Body Builder first calvers out of Angus cows-probably the best set of first calf heifers I've ever seen-never had a sniff of grain in their life-nice thick perfect uddered little cows-nice to see a guys breeding program working.
 
gberry said:
Robin,

I hate to ask a stupid question, but what exactly do you mean by not as fancy as you like your show steers. I guess I don't really understand the term fancy. Can anyone help?
Click to expand...

gberry...

I'm not Red Robin, and sure don't have as good of an eye for cattle either, but I'll give this my best shot...

"Fancy" refers to stylish and clean fronted...kinda like a model. You know really feminine in terms of heifers, and a similar clean front in terms of steers. I always say it takes a big engine to run a big truck and sometimes to get deep, broody cattle with muscle, you don't get a "fancy" front.

And IL Rancher, is probably right!!! Yes, too practical to be a show steer.

This fanciest or not, I still think NR has a pretty dang nice calf (above average Major League too, ha, ha, ha)...

Hope this is "clear as mud.." :)

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
If you seen Faith Hill, in person, when they are runnin around Incognito.........you'd swear you just seen white trash. nothin against the woman at all, but man she can shore dress herself down and look bad.

We seen her, Tim, and the kids along with a few of their road crew I spose is who they was, came into a Mexican Food Resturant we were at, I kid you not, none of us sittin there recognized them when they came in. They sat at the table behind us, and was one of those situations, ya know the kind, where yer sittin there and thinkin to yerself, (man I wish someone would make those kids sit down and shut up) Like lil heathens.

So..on that note...LOL on her incognito days, Faith Hill might just fall into the "Cull" group.

As for Pamela Anderson bein fancy..........would you want a cow with fake udders? LOL!!!!!!
 

Latest posts

Back
Top