Mandatory Age Reporting In Canada
- Thread starter DiamondSCattleCo
- Start date
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Actually OCM, thats me that has high hopes of selling to China. And yes, I'm aware of how big the Chinese herd is. I'm also aware of how underdeveloped it is, and how it can't feed its own people. China has sent numerous trade delegations to Canada in the hopes of opening up a beef trade with our country. Since they took over Hong Kong, China has begun to change from the inside out. They now have some resorts and some 5 star restaurants catering to a high end crowd and diplomats. And they have no way of servicing those outlets in-country. Its a huge, promising marketplace for the next 10 - 20 years. After that, they may end up being an export competitor, so Canada needs to be on the ball right now and captilize while we can.
Rod
Rod
1: We use dentition now for the 30 month and under and Japan agreed on the tenderous test for the under twenty months. They may both be time consuming but both work and neither of them will put the integrity of our system into question like forcing producers to do something they don't want to just to satifiy you.DiamondSCattleCo said:
2: could you provide some proof from the Chinese that says they will only take our beef if it is age verified by birthdate. as I don't recall that I have heard that before.
3. I believe the SSGA is trying to protect the industry for all producers. I have to ask though do you really believe it is in the best interest to all producers to take away all the options they have to market their cattle the way they see fit. I DON"T. I also don't see a need to force producers into something that is NOT A HEALTH ISSUE. M'AGE' is not a Health issue it is a marketing OPTION, and should not be forced on those that don't choose to comply.
I don't want this to sound mean but Why do people always leave it up to others to protect their interests. What kind of Market power does it take to pay a $100 membership and attend a few meeting so you can have you say on the issues we are all facing together. The Policies the SSGA stand on are voted on by the general membership if you want your say buy a membership and VOTE. Just like BMR and I did. Our vote as large producers has not more power than yours as a small producer.
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Tam said:
1) Time consuming, and not able to handle the volume thats required. And this has nothing to do with satisfying me. I'm not the only one who feels this way. I understand the Alberta government feels strongly enough that they may bypass producer wishes and make it mandatory in Alberta. The past president of the CCA told me that, and I haven't had an opportunity to verify it yet.
2) Tam, talk to some people in the industry. I'm sorry, marketing reps and people who meet with delegates don't post their conversation verbatim on the internet for people to read. No official resolutions have ever been passed by the Chinese if thats what you mean, or at least that I'm aware of, but only a blind man can't see that age verification is going to be a necessary component of exporting beef in the future.
3) The SSGA asks for $100 from its members. Whats that for? To protect them and stand up for their rights. I'm sure that at least SOME of the SSGA members are average producers who have found the same problem with access to age verified premiums as I have. I wasn't asking the SSGA to protect me, as I'm not a member. Perhaps none of the SSGA are average sized producers? And if there are, has anyone bothered to explain to them that not having sufficient quantities of age verified beef could very well hurt them in the future? Perhaps in the interests of full disclosure, someone in the SSGA should.
Rod
blackjack
Well-known member
... tam ... rod is correct in saying the alberta govt wanted to make age verification mandatory ... the cattle assoc told ag minister horner to wait until the producers could adjust to yet another request of them... in saying that maybe it should have become mandatory cause there was a lack of cattle aged verified to process at the packers and still are... so that is one of the reasons there was no premium for the calves last fall...
DiamondSCattleCo said:
1.What required volume are you talking about Rod? and will our slaughter capacity handle the required volume? The problem with you argument about dentition time factor is that it is not the only factor when you look at the big picture. You have slaughter capacity and if we are to test for these markets like you seem to think we will then the time factor of the testing will play a bigger roll on our capacity than the time it takes for an inspector to look at the animals teeth.
2. "but only a blind man can't see that age verification is going to be a necessary component of exporting beef in the future" True but only a blind man can't see that we have other option that will not put the integity of the system we do have at risk. I agree age verification by birthdate is great but by forcing it on producers that don't want it, you are risky they will not have the records to back up the dates they were FORCED to file. If our trading partner see us fining producer for providing false un verifiable information will they trust the system to be what we say it is?
If China has not made any request for birthdate verification then Dentition should work on those cattle that come from producers that don't care to take advantage of the system that is provided to them free of charge.
By the way Rod first you say
and then you are telling OCM about the 5 star restaurants catering to high end crowd. I heard that the Chinese market could open to cull cow meat and that fits your hamburger story so the only factor I see there in the slaughter capacity factor as we don't need to age verify cull cattle only the under 30 and 20 month old animals.
3. first you say
now it is
do you not belong in the everyone catagory you mentioned? or the medium size producer who doesn't even have the market power of the large producer catagory?
Rod the SSGA doesn't pick and choose who the protect. They protect ALL PRODUCERS even those that don't pay membership dues. If you are so worried about what others, that are at these meetings, are being told why not become a member and come educate the rest of us on the real issues. I doubt you will because it is cheaper and eazier to sit back and complain than it is to get involved and have your say on how this industry works. Topics are discussed and voted on, not all issues go the way all would like but if you don't take advantage of your option to be a member and have a say you shouldn't complain about how other look after your business.
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Tam said:
1) If the Chinese market opens up, they'll be trying to rob some of the supply currently heading into the US, plus looking for live animal shipments. With a tighter supply, its going to drive prices up. Then either the US and local markets have to pony up to the table, or else go without. And this is GOOD FOR PRODUCERS. And your point about BSE testing is valid, however China is not asking for BSE testing on all animals. That will also come soon I'm sure, but Age Verification appears to be the forefront of it.
Even without the Chinese market open, the packers can't get enough age verified cattle for export. So it makes no sense to enact another, more expensive, time consuming process for age verification, just to protect the premiums of a few large producers.
2) There is ZERO risk to our current system. How is an incorrectly entered birthdate going to compromise the traceback system? And how is the current voluntary system any safer? People are every bit as likelt to enter incorrect data to get a premium as they would be to enter incorrect data when forced to enter data. And I like I said, the only way to ensure accuracy is by inspecting every single animal. Not going to happen and still maintain the volume that the market is going to ask for.
3) People see us handing out fines for speeding. Does this mean they don't trust our roads? Sorry, your logic doesn't work here.
4) Chinese delegates are telling marketers they will want age verified beef. Just because I haven't seen a resolution passed down, doesn't mean that its not there. They definitely won't lift the requirement for live animal shipments when they begin taking those. This is NOT guesswork or supposition on my part. These are real conversations taking place with real people, and if you actually spoke to some of the packers and marketers who are attempting to open the overseas market, you'd understand that.
5) And again, I grow weary of your insults. I have a sick wife at home and a 19 month old baby boy to look after. I do NOT have the time nor the money to travel to southern Saskatchewan and sit in on your SSGA meetings. So I do the next best thing I can do, and use the internet and telephone to contact those people who can speak for me. The CCA rep in Calgary suggested that I try to get an SSGA region started in this area, and I think its a heck of an idea. I'll be attempting that as well when time and energy permits. Perhaps maybe then we'll have a true voice from up here, as the SSGA certainly did NOT represent my area on the age verification issue.
So quite frankly, Tam, I see myself doing more than you are when it comes to protecting this industry. I'll happily debate your non-offensive points all day long, however accurate or inaccurate I feel they are. But can the insults or I'm simply going to start ignoring your responses. You have NO IDEA what I'm doing from my home right now to further producer interests.
Rod
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Tam said:
I missed this earlier. During the initial producer meetings with the CCIA, it repeatedly mentioned that M-ID was going to be a requirement to ensure EXPORT markets remained open. More than once, CCIA reps said that our trading partners were going to require traceback ability to ensure the safety of our beef. Certainly M-ID had a great local health impact as well, but the export component was always mentioned, and was near the top of the list. As it should be. Its pointless to have a healthy herd if you have no place to sell them. Remember, again, that 60% of our calves leave our borders.
M-Age is the IDENTICAL issue. There is absolutely no difference, except that it has less of a local impact. Its a food safety issue that affects our EXPORT markets. Again, whats the point in a healthy herd if we have no place to sell them?
Rod
Enact what we already have another process.
The trace back system is not the system I.m talking about it is our voluntary Age verification system I'm talking about. You claim the only way to ensure the accuracy is by inspecting every animal. BUT we were personally audited by the CFIA to see if we had records to back up what we had entered so checking every animal is not the only way to find out if the information is WRONG. If the CFIA finds the producer records don't verify the given date they flag the cattle. But if those cattle were to have already gone through the system and were exported our AGE VERIFICATION SYSTEM would come into question. And we would be going back to the expensive process of Dentition on ALL CATTLE.
And this is your opinion People are every bit as likelt to enter incorrect data to get a premium as they would be to enter incorrect data when forced to enter data most don't happen to agree with you including the CCIA on this and that is why those that oppose making it manditory voted the way they did.
Did a person getting a speeding ticket in the US have anything to do with the Japanese closing the US down again? NO but sending them something they didn't OK sure did. I don't care if our export markets think our roads are safe but I do care that they trust we are sending them what we say we are.
If they are not telling the marketers they want age verify beef by BIRTHDATE then why can't we use the other option open to us? You make it sound as if they will only take Age verified by BIRTHDATE
Sorry to hear about your wife I hope she feels better soon.
I agree with the CCA rep I think you should activate your zone but that would take becoming a MEMBER Rod. And if you choose to take that option I truly believe you will get the support of the full membership . And when and if you can attend a meeting whether it be in your local area or in Regina or the many other places we hold meetings you can have a say in how the SSGA handles all issues.including Age verification. But Please remember what I said about we vote and the vote doesn't always go the way we would like so if your stand on Age is not backed by the MAJORITY it's not going to be backed by the Association.
I find it funny that you of all people would be telling anyone to can the insults go back and read this whole thread Rod you started it with an insult and you continued the insults all the way through including this post with Perhaps maybe then we'll have a true voice from up here, as the SSGA certainly did NOT represent my area on the age verification issue. You don't seem to mind tossing the old insults do you Rod. You need to can the insults and answer the questions asked of you.
By the way Are you prepared to provided the infrastructure that would be neccessary to implement Manditory Age vertification? what this means is are you going to provide ALL producer big and small, old and young internet access and in some cases train the producers how to use that computer so they can enter the information needed? All these demands that some producers want to put on our industry like M'AGE and 100% testing have to have a infrastructure that will support them and as of yet we are lacking the components neccessary to carry out either of these demands. So unless you are willing to provide it we can't implement it!!!!!!
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Tam said:
1) Age verification by RFID is cheap, fast and easy. If the forecast number of livestock leaving for overseas markets is even remotely close to predictions, dentition checking will not be fast enough nor cheap enough.
2) I haven't insulted you. I said the SSGA, an association, was not looking out for producers in my area on the age verification issue. This is not an insult. It may an attack on the stance of an association that you have said represents ALL stockgrowers within Saskatchewan and I simply assured you that they were in no way, shape or form representing producers in my area. And as far as having voice in the SSGA up here, we DON'T have one. Whose the SSGA region rep for north-east Saskatchewan?
I have attacked your stance on certain issues and I have questioned your knowledge of certain parts of the cattle industry. You on the other hand have called me lazy, whiny, and unwilling to work to gain benefits within the current system. Madam, I am most certainly not lazy. If bringing to light a failure in the system is whining, then so be it. I guess good old George Washington and a thousand others who fought for change in a variety of systems were whiners too? And you are totally unaware of what I work on daily, only what I post here.
3) Age verification is not all done by internet access. Mail in age forms and telephone systems are all in place right now. All it would take is more manpower to handle it. Thats part of the 2 yr systems roll-out that I spoke of at the beginning of this thread. For all the livestock born in Saskatchewan, it would take all of 10 incompetent data entry clerks to make the necessary entries. At the most. And if the forms were designed properly, many fewer. A good data entry clerk can easily make 2000 birthdate entries in a day. With ease.
Rod
greg
Well-known member
In my humble opinion,it is a good idea.New times,but should be compensated for the extra work is only right
Maple Leaf Angus
Well-known member
Guys, I could be wrong, but here is my opinion - it will come to be mandatory. And when it does, we as the producers will receive no reimbursement for it.
My reasoning is based on the historical perspective that shows that whenever an improvement has been been undertaken by the rancher or farmer, it is only the first guys in that benefit financially and eventually the market demands or accepts the "improvement" as the standard practice with prices returning to the previous level. Time and again, the things that we do to try to gain a little leverage in the marketplace simply end up providing a better product to the processer and consumer with no return to the primary producer.
But I'm not bitter.
Don't worry, I'll get over it. But I'm having a bad time right now because I just got off the phone after spending the better part of an hour trying to listen to a CAIS employee explain to me why they will be asking me to repay the CAIS check they sent me in January.
My reasoning is based on the historical perspective that shows that whenever an improvement has been been undertaken by the rancher or farmer, it is only the first guys in that benefit financially and eventually the market demands or accepts the "improvement" as the standard practice with prices returning to the previous level. Time and again, the things that we do to try to gain a little leverage in the marketplace simply end up providing a better product to the processer and consumer with no return to the primary producer.
But I'm not bitter.
Don't worry, I'll get over it. But I'm having a bad time right now because I just got off the phone after spending the better part of an hour trying to listen to a CAIS employee explain to me why they will be asking me to repay the CAIS check they sent me in January.
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Maple Leaf Angus said:
Maple Leaf, you are most certainly correct in this. Its just the way the marketplace works, and as beef producers we always have to be constantly looking for ways to improve. Unfortunately, it also means that eventually our improvments become the norm, but its also no different in the computer industry or other industries.
But this is why I feel we need to be enacting age verification right now. On the world stage right now, beef doesn't have to be age verified to be accepted by many countries. This is changing, and if Canada is the first to the market with ready volumes of age verified beef, then we will reap the benefits first. Then, when the prices start to slide down and age verified beef is the norm, we've already made the money.
Then we need to find another marketting tool.
Canada can't afford to be an "also ran" in the world market. We have way too much competition from other countries whose beef is, in my opinion, ALMOST as good. As I said, I think we have the best beef in the world, now we need to have the best marketting. If that means not protecting a select few's premiums, so be it.
Rod
blackjack said:
blackjack do you know how long it takes age vertified cattle to reach the packers? and do you know how many have been age verified since July 2005 that will be hitting the markets soon? Last fall saw low numbers because very few producers age verified their cattle the year before as they didn't really know what it took. As the knowledge grows so will the system we didn't tag every animal in Canada the first year when we implemented the ID program but as producers got on board those number rose and so will the Birthdate verified numbers just give it a chance. We went M"ID" because it was a health issue but the M'AGE is not a health issue and therefore most feel it should be left as a marketing option just like other marketing options.I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across. Sorry it took so long to reply to you but I was doing a bit more research on the topic.
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Tam said:
You keep saying this, but our customers consider aging to be a HEALTH issue, otherwise they wouldn't consider restricting imports to age verified beef only. Why else would the countries doing the imports want to restrict the beef based on age? Just because of some arbitrary age limit?
Tam said:
Very bad wording on my part:
Age verification DOES NOT HAVE TO all be done by internet access.
You asked me if I was willing to foot the bill to ensure that every man, woman, and child who wanted to age verify had internet access. What I'm saying is that every man, woman, and child does not need it. We already have in place data entry clerks who do the entry of the tag IDs, adding birthdates to their workload would be inconsequential. The forms that I filled out at the Co-op with the tag IDs on them had birthdate entry spots there already.
The CCIA already has a phone system, and all it would take is adding some lines and an automated system for birthdate entry. Automated phone data entry systems are available off-the-shelf, easily customized, and put into place.
Not to mention that the number of ranch households without internet access in Saskatchewan are SLIM. Of the 50 or so producers that I am friends with or deal with, I can actually only think of ONE who does not have a computer.
Overall cost would be neglible in comparison to falling behind our competition. The more I think about it, there are specialized data entry companies who could be enlisted to do the entry of all manually submitted forms. These companies work cheap, and guarantee their results. Companies that I've worked for in the past have used them to reduce peak workloads so they didn't have to hire more fulltime staff.
All this would take approximately 2 years to get moving. All I'm suggesting is that we quit worrying about protecting the margins of a few producers who have access to them, and start worrying about the margins of every single producer.
Especially since this is a HEALTH issue and no matter how times its stated that its not a HEALTH issue doesn't change the fact that our customers feel it is a HEALTH issue. I know I'm certainly not going to stand in front of the Japanese, Chinese or Europeans and tell them they're WRONG to want age verified cattle. We can't count on a US market anymore. We NEED those other markets.
<chuckle> SOrry If I've rambled a bit. I was up until 4:30am calving, and my son was wide awake and rolling at 6am. :lol:
Rod
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Well Rod you might be surprized to know this, but I spoke to the CCIA yesterday and again today. While I was on the phone yesterday I told them about our little conversation. They went on line and read some of our comments while we were talking. seem by our conversation they agree with the information I posted and IT WAS THEM that asked me to ask you the infrastructure question. As according to them there is not system in place to handle the sheer volume of cattle you are talking about if this thing is forced into Manditory. And in the conversation I asked them about the mail in and telephone and they said there is no system in place to handle it. There is how ever ONE lady in all of Sask that has Third party user status that can enter data for producers that don't want to do it themselves but she has the right to charge for her service so that kind of takes away the idea of FREE OF CHARGE doesn't it. They also told me about the Alberta and Manitoba Government were playing with the Idea of doing it through their Ag offices but have already run into problem with the volume of producers that are volunteering to age verifing by birthdate that can't access or just don't care to do it themselves and not being able to handle the work load and handle all the other issues that they have on their plates. And we are still in the booting up stages what do you think will get done in those offices it this thing is forced on ALL PRODUCERS?
Why do you keep saying Age verified as if the only way we can possibably age verify is by BIRTHDATE. I don't want to stop the trade either Rod I just happen to think like the CCIA if we open those markets we are more likely to keep them open if we use age verifiable by birthdate cattle and Dentition age vertified to fill in where we have to. :x
Are you going to stand in front of those trading partners and tell them that we forced the producers into M'AGE' and some of the producers can't verify the age of their cattle so we may have sent them meat from over aged cattle? Are you going to stand in front of the Canadian cattle producers and tell them that the integrity of our system was called into question because some producers couldn't vertify the ages of their cattle so Japan and China slammed their border closed to us again? We need those markets Rob but we need them to stay open too. Just ask the US Producers what happens when you send the Japanese something they said they wouldn't except.
DiamondSCattleCo
Well-known member
Tam said:
1) So the CCIA doesn't receive mail? Or the CCIA doesn't have telephones? Did you speak to someone with the necessary qualifications, IE) a business analyst, who could actually speak intelligently about designing a business process to handle something along these lines?
The reason I ask, is because I'm not just speaking out my butt when it comes to systems such as these that we're talking about. I'm intimately familiar with monthly manual data entry from budgetary forms, and designed a system 7 years ago for data entry. This system is far more complex than a simple entry system like the one we're speaking of. With it, 2 untrained data entry clerks can enter 1300 users information in 2 days, each month.
As of last year, the company was charging $5000.00 for it.
2) Hence the 2 year roll out. And if there is no-one in place right now to do entry of tag IDs, how do the tag IDs get into the system from the Co-op?
3) I disagree with the CCIA that this will require hundreds of people. This sounds considerably more like resistance to change than anyone qualified sitting down and thinking this through. I have been made aware of the sheer volume of calls that went through their offices, and provincial ones, when people were asking about age verificiation and how to use the current on-line system. This would be a near-term issue, part of the 2 year roll out I'm speaking of. Surely they noticed a short-term increase in calls during M-ID?
I think someone from the CCIA should call the company in the US who has that on-line system in place that Porker was telling me about in another thread. The charge for the use of that system is nominal (I'm sorry, I don't have the link anymore, Porker are you reading this?), and at that rate, the company must be making money or else they wouldn't be doing it.
4) All producers can age verify. There is nothing to prevent them from writing down birthdates. When M-ID was introduced, hundreds of producers complained that to put tags in was going to be too hard, and too expensive, and too time consuming. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to have been much of a hardship after all. So now its going to be more of a hardship to write down the birthdate of an animal on a form, especially since the hard part truly is the tagging?
I'm sorry, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic. The CCA was probably right that we simply need to give people time to get used to age verification, and perhaps I'm asking for something that needs to be introduced more gradually, but Porker really opened my eyes in the other thread.
Rod
1. Yes they recieve mail but recieveing mail in data and having the manpower to enter that data is two different things.DiamondSCattleCo said:
Yes they have telephones but having a telephone and having the manpower to enter data into the data bases are again two different things.
Am I to believe you about the abilities of a system over someone that works with the system knows it capabilities and knows how many people work in an office that you seem to think could just do the work with little to no problems. I DON"T THINK SO.
As of right now the Age verification system is charging NOTHING to enter the information. How long do you thing that will be if the CCIA is forced to hire a bunch new data base people to handle the work load you think they should just do no questions asked?
2. The time it takes your Coop to enter the tag numbers you buy when you buy them is far different than the time it would take to get the information back from the producer go back into the data base and enter birthdates the way each producer chooses to have his birthdates enter. That is time they will want to be compensated for. So not only will there be no premuims being paid for age verified by BIRTHDATE cattle, M'AGE' will be putting the expense of age verifing on those producers that can't or don't want to do it themselves. So much for being free of charge
3. You third comment about the resistance on behalf of the CCIA is a JOKE. The CCIA has lead the way against great resistance in making changes to the way our beef is looked at and now you are claiming they the CCIA are resistant to change. when it comes to M"AGE" :roll:
There is a big difference in Porkers system and the CCIA system That big difference is Porker's system is VOLUNTARILY BEING TO SOLD to those producers that WANT it and can Afford it. The CCIA system is free of charge to every producer in Canada if they choose to take advantage. Porker can afford to hire all the data base operators he need to do his work. The CCIA can't afford to and still keep this a free of charge system. So again not only will there be no premiums there will be a CHARGE for something that you want forced on all producers in Canada. :roll:
I don't think you will get people to believe it is as easy as writing down a birthdate Rod. or putting a tag in a ear. When in fact it is not that simple. Not only do you have to write it down, you have to enter it into a data base via internet access, then you have to keep auditable records to prove that birthdate you wrote down matchs the tags you put in the ear of the animals so if the CFIA comes around you can prove it to them. And if you do all this now while it is still VOLUNTARY you should recieve a nice premium for your hard work. But if this goes Manditory not only will you have to do the work but the premium with disappear and the once free of charge system could have charges implemented to cover the sheer volume of data that has to be entered by someone for those that can't access the internet for themselves or just doesn't want to. Anyone that believes all it will take is to write down a birthdate is Naive. and if they are that naive do you really want to risk the integrity of a system that we including you are counting on to open markets and keep them open.
This is the smartest thing you have posted yet.
