Mandatory country-of-origin labeling

[Tam]

Tam- After mandatory ID goes into effect, who do you think will get stuck with responsibility/liability if anyone does--the rancher that talks to an attorney once every year or two to go over a contract or lease-or the Packer conglomerates that have herds of attorneys working for them? :???:

How many expert witnesses can you afford to buy ?

Oldtimer what did you think was going to happen when you kept insisting on the M"COOL label? That the packers would not force you to take responsibility for your cattle. :lol2:

Your biggest argument for the M"COOL law was that the Consumer have a right to know where their beef comes from. The Consumer have the right to know as long as they don't have a way of proving who in the US was responsible for the tainted meat they just ate, right? This is a case of be careful of what you ask for, as it may come back to bite you!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- After mandatory ID goes into effect, who do you think will get stuck with responsibility/liability if anyone does--the rancher that talks to an attorney once every year or two to go over a contract or lease-or the Packer conglomerates that have herds of attorneys working for them? :???:

How many expert witnesses can you afford to buy ?

Oldtimer what did you think was going to happen when you kept insisting on the M"COOL label? That the packers would not force you to take responsibility for your cattle. :lol2:

Your biggest argument for the M"COOL law was that the Consumer have a right to know where their beef comes from. The Consumer have the right to know as long as they don't have a way of proving who in the US was responsible for the tainted meat they just ate, right? This is a case of be careful of what you ask for, as it may come back to bite you!!!!!

Tam- Domestic and Imported product can be identified and segregated without knowing the ranch of origin-- we've done it for years with the school lunch program and we did it for Japan after they shut off Canadian beef......COOL is country of origin- not ranch of origin......

Altho with the new FDA rules it looks like Canadian product will have to be traceable back to ranch of origin anyway.......

 

[rancher]

Tam- After mandatory ID goes into effect, who do you think will get stuck with responsibility/liability if anyone does--the rancher that talks to an attorney once every year or two to go over a contract or lease-or the Packer conglomerates that have herds of attorneys working for them? :???:

How many expert witnesses can you afford to buy ?

Oldtimer what did you think was going to happen when you kept insisting on the M"COOL label? That the packers would not force you to take responsibility for your cattle. :lol2:

Your biggest argument for the M"COOL law was that the Consumer have a right to know where their beef comes from. The Consumer have the right to know as long as they don't have a way of proving who in the US was responsible for the tainted meat they just ate, right? This is a case of be careful of what you ask for, as it may come back to bite you!!!!!

Tam- Domestic and Imported product can be identified and segregated without knowing the ranch of origin-- we've done it for years with the school lunch program and we did it for Japan after they shut off Canadian beef......COOL is country of origin- not ranch of origin......

Altho with the new FDA rules it looks like Canadian product will have to be traceable back to ranch of origin anyway.......

Trace back to just ranch origin will do nothing unless you trace it to every place it has been inbetween. Can and does Canada do this? We are not talking paper trail as that takes to long according to some of you.

 

[PORKER]

"36 other nations already require some form of country-of-origin labeling on imported food products, and U.S. exporters of those products regularly comply with those labeling regulations." The GAO surveyed 57 U.S. trading partner countries and found that 48 require country of origin labeling for one or more of the commodities covered by the new law.

The European Union imposes country of origin labeling regulations for fruits and vegetables, fish and shellfish and beef. Japan requires country of origin labeling for all foods covered by the US law. [21]

Eight states have COOL laws.[22] Florida's program mainly covers fresh produce. It has been operating for more than 10 years as an extension of its food safety inspection regulations. Two to three times a year inspectors visit Florida grocery stores to check cleanliness, food storage temperatures, meat handling procedures and country of origin labeling. The COOL requirement takes about 15 minutes. The inspectors check the shipping boxes and packagers in the store against the display signs or labels. Florida does not require a verifiable audit trail and only requires imported products to be labeled.

 

[Tam]

Tam- After mandatory ID goes into effect, who do you think will get stuck with responsibility/liability if anyone does--the rancher that talks to an attorney once every year or two to go over a contract or lease-or the Packer conglomerates that have herds of attorneys working for them? :???:

How many expert witnesses can you afford to buy ?

Oldtimer what did you think was going to happen when you kept insisting on the M"COOL label? That the packers would not force you to take responsibility for your cattle. :lol2:

Your biggest argument for the M"COOL law was that the Consumer have a right to know where their beef comes from. The Consumer have the right to know as long as they don't have a way of proving who in the US was responsible for the tainted meat they just ate, right? This is a case of be careful of what you ask for, as it may come back to bite you!!!!!

Tam- Domestic and Imported product can be identified and segregated without knowing the ranch of origin-- we've done it for years with the school lunch program and we did it for Japan after they shut off Canadian beef......COOL is country of origin- not ranch of origin......

Altho with the new FDA rules it looks like Canadian product will have to be traceable back to ranch of origin anyway.......

So again if the consumers wants to know where the tainted meat came from within the US to bad right Oldtimer? As long as you can trace ours back to the Canadian rancher :roll: If you are so proud of the beef you produce why don't you want your name on it Oldtimer? What are you scare of that someone will hold you liable for the beef you produce?
Why is it that R-CALF spouted OIE standards left and right when in court and how the USDA is to follow them to the letter, but now that the OIE rule of

"The importing country cannot be more trade restrictive than necessary to achieve the desired national level of protection, and that it's measures must not be different from those applied to products within the domestic market"

is working against you, you spout that Homeland Sercurity overrides that. You only follow those rules that fit your agenda. All people need to know is that Canadian beef is a genuine risk of death and that the US beef is the safest in the world even though we BOTH HAVE BSE IN OUR NATIVE HERDS. You are such a hypocrite You want the consumer to know only what you can give them without putting the liability on your doorstep while you open your competition to the liability that you refuse to face yourself.

 

[Tam]

Oldtimer what did you think was going to happen when you kept insisting on the M"COOL label? That the packers would not force you to take responsibility for your cattle. :lol2:

Your biggest argument for the M"COOL law was that the Consumer have a right to know where their beef comes from. The Consumer have the right to know as long as they don't have a way of proving who in the US was responsible for the tainted meat they just ate, right? This is a case of be careful of what you ask for, as it may come back to bite you!!!!!

Tam- Domestic and Imported product can be identified and segregated without knowing the ranch of origin-- we've done it for years with the school lunch program and we did it for Japan after they shut off Canadian beef......COOL is country of origin- not ranch of origin......

Altho with the new FDA rules it looks like Canadian product will have to be traceable back to ranch of origin anyway.......

Trace back to just ranch origin will do nothing unless you trace it to every place it has been inbetween. Can and does Canada do this? We are not talking paper trail as that takes to long according to some of you.

No matter what we do here in Canada it is years ahead of what you do in the US so keep following in our foot steps, someday you will catch up Rancher. Even when a paper trail has to be used Canada has found that when you Start from both ends if an animals live and work towards the middle you can accomplish your job alot fast unlike the US that is told to stop looking.

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- call me any name you want---You still can't sell your beef without doing it on the backs of what the US producer built up- so you better keep hoping our system works.....You still need to have it marked with the USDA stamp and passed off as US beef.....And since we're the consumer (importer- buyer- whatever suits Maxine) put at risk (both physically and economically) by what you export to us, we should be able to set our rules......I'll bet when people come onto your place, you don't let them do whatever they want to- you have rules....

Most of the OIE rules were written long before 9/11--Its a new different world out there now with a whole new deck of playing cards.....Homeland Security should trump all other rules.......

And Tam from what I've been reading and from Canadians I've talked to, you are blowing smoke on how advanced your ID system is....Only a small percentage have any info with the tag- like birth or movement info...Many of the cattle of Canada have only one thing- A tag that tells you who stuck it in the day before it sold--Nothing else......Many in the US have had that or much more for years...Many areas in the US have had movement inspections for years....

 

[PORKER]

Tam , REMEMBER the BRAND inspectors,they check the brand or what you call ,the premises code. They are one in the same. The branding states have had premises traceback for years!!!

 

[katrina]

Here is my two cents worth:
Bama, what a suck up..
Porker is right. WE can and do keep track of cattle movement with brands and brand inspections. It works.

 

[STAFF]

Katrina and Porker,That is what databases are built for and why Brands are and always have been the universal premises code.Our database accepts all data needed to ID an animal whether it travels from country to country as beef or on the hoof.Even the food handlers and transporters will be required by FDA to have traceback records from field to fork. Here is the records link ; https://www.scoringag.com/Ag.cfm?sfa=main.records&section=entity_activity

 

[katrina]

Is there traceback for alabama sucking up too??? :twisted:

 

[Tam]

From Oldtimer

And since we're the consumer (importer- buyer- whatever suits Maxine) put at risk (both physically and economically) by what you export to us, we should be able to set our rules.....

R-CALF wrote in their comments to the USDA on the final ruling that:

Under no circumstances should the United States accept any cattle, beef or beef products, from countries that do not maintain identical or more stringent safeguard measures that is presently required or presently proposed in the United States which measures have been enforced for at least as long as the United States

. Again even if you don't agree the OIE says

"The importing country cannot be more trade restrictive than necessary to achieve the desired national level of protection, and that it's measures must not be different from those applied to products within the domestic market"

so lets see if the US should be exporting beef to Canada let alone Japan.

1: Canada is testing the highest risk category of cattle that were recommended by the OIE at a higher number than requested to find the prevalence of BSE in the Canadian herd. The U.S. testing has come under fire for not testing targeted cattle, testing the wrong cattle altogether and to top that they were using the wrong confirmatory test so their one positive was not found until a retest was done 7 months later.
2: The Canadian pro-active MBM feed bans came into effect at the same time as the U.S., in 1997. The CFIA has records to prove compliance and the USDA has verified this. The FDA feed ban compliance records have come under investigation by the GAO and wow what a report.
3: In 1998, Canada improved the feed bans by adding chicken litter, plate waste and salvaged pet food to the list of ban items. and the CFIA are again looking at making changes to the feed bans to close any further loopholes that may exsist in light of the presents of BSE in our herd. The USDA and FDA have not updated their feed bans yet. In one of they last press releases about the rules they were thinking about implimenting they came right out and admitted their new rules would mimic those Canada has.
4: Canada's mandatory national ID system has the capability to trace all domestic cattle back to place of birth. And it proved that if you start from both ends of an animals life you can find out alot in a short period of time. But with the lack of a system in the US the USDA was told to just stop looking for the cattle in question and clean up the whole industry.
And according to Porker and so nicely backed up by Katrina the US can use their brand system to trace, to bad not all states have BRAND SYSTEMS in place. And you brand system was in place when the OIE told the USDA to stop looking for the animals so I don't think they thought your brand system was working
5: With that same traceback system Canada has the capability of age verifing by birth date. This is what we hear in Canada about the system the US is using

Dentition can be used to determine if cattle are under 30 months of age. However it cannot be used to determine if cattle are under 20 months of age.

so they are still trying to come to a agreed upon system with Japan on the 20 month and under because the US can't age vertify by birth date at a level that can cover the Japanese export market if it opens.
6: The safeguards that Canada has in place to protect the food chain worked to keep the three BSE positive cows out of Canada's food system, the same cannot be said for the US.
7: Canada has implemented stringent processing rules including SRM removal. There are reports by plant inspectors in the US of violations of some of the new USDA rules pretaining to SRM removal.

So Oldtimer if we and the Japanese are the consumers put at risk by what you export to us, Shouldn't we beable to set the rules and insist that Under no circumstances should Canada and Japan accept any cattle, beef or beef products, from countries (IE the USA) that do not maintain identical or more stringent safeguard measures that is presently required or presently proposed in Canada and Japan which measures have been enforced for at least as long as Canada and Japan. Which means a MANDITORY NATIONAL ID system capable of traceback to place of birth and , age verification by birth date, stricter feed bans, and records to prove compliance to the stricter feed bans, compliance to OIE RECOMMENDED testing with the proper tests, and compliance to the new SRM removal rules, and in Japans case 100% testing. And by the time you can accommplish this list, the list could be longer as we are working to imrove our systems and rules beyond what we have now. So just how long do you see the US taking on convincing the like of you, Porker and Katrina that your non national brand system won't cut it in the global marketplace and catch you up so you can export again. Especially if every country stood on the statement that R-CALF put in their comments on the final rule. Or do the rest of the importing countries in the world not have to worry about Homeland Security like you do Oldtimer.

Most of the OIE rules were written long before 9/11--Its a new different world out there now with a whole new deck of playing cards.....Homeland Security should trump all other rules.......

The Security of the Japanese and Canadian consumer and any other beef importing country that you want to export to should also trump your need to export your products when you don't want or have to live by the same stringant rules you want inforced on your trading partners because of your fears of terrorism. But I guess our security doesn't matter if it should happen to cost the US producers.

And Tam from what I've been reading and from Canadians I've talked to, you are blowing smoke on how advanced your ID system is....Only a small percentage have any info with the tag- like birth or movement info...Many of the cattle of Canada have only one thing- A tag that tells you who stuck it in the day before it sold--Nothing else......Many in the US have had that or much more for years...Many areas in the US have had movement inspections for years....

Where did I say Oldtimer that we could track movement What I said is Canada at least can find where the animal has been in a short time because we work from BOTH ends if the lifespan of said animal. Now can you do that Oldtimer? We are working at implimenting the tracking. How long do you think it will take the US producers to get to the point we are now let alone tracking every animal in the US.

Many areas in the US have had movement inspections for years..

Many in Canada have also had movement inspections Oldtimer but we as a nation moved into the hi tech tagging of every animal not just those in some areas. So how long do you think it will take the US to get caught up with what is already happening in Canada, not to mention alot of other countries, while we work on getting even farther ahead of you?

 

[Anonymous]

Slow day today Tam- you decide to practice your fiction novel writing :lol:

All I gathered out of your page of mumbo jumbo is that you think Canada shouldn't have to take US beef because we aren't both equal in standards---I agree...I don't think anyone should have to take beef or any other product from someone just because of some treaty or what some foreign trade organization in Brussels says...

How about- You keep your beef- We keep ours.....Then we don't have to worry about all this paperwork, treaties or Homeland Security....Keep things simple :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Here is my two cents worth:
Bama, what a suck up..
Porker is right. WE can and do keep track of cattle movement with brands and brand inspections. It works.

Katrina- Been many times when a group of cows comes thru the salesyard when I'm setting there- and I recognize they are part of the semi load of shorterm cows Joe Blow bought from Bill Smith 3 years ago which Bill had bought as bred heifers from the Vermillion Ranch (sorry Maxine).....

I always have to chuckle when they say we have no traceback- the whole road map of their life is right there in front of you- and I don't need any $3000 RFID reader to tell me that or what year they were born....The year number is right there too....

 

[HAY MAKER]

Slow day today Tam- you decide to practice your fiction novel writing :lol:

All I gathered out of your page of mumbo jumbo is that you think Canada shouldn't have to take US beef because we aren't both equal in standards---I agree...I don't think anyone should have to take beef or any other product from someone just because of some treaty or what some foreign trade organization in Brussels says...

How about- You keep your beef- We keep ours.....Then we don't have to worry about all this paperwork, treaties or Homeland Security....Keep things simple :wink:

Miss Tam just cant understand that now that she is a canuckle head her market is right here in the good ole USA>............. ..good luck

 

[mrj]

Here is my two cents worth:
Bama, what a suck up..
Porker is right. WE can and do keep track of cattle movement with brands and brand inspections. It works.

Katrina- Been many times when a group of cows comes thru the salesyard when I'm setting there- and I recognize they are part of the semi load of shorterm cows Joe Blow bought from Bill Smith 3 years ago which Bill had bought as bred heifers from the Vermillion Ranch (sorry Maxine).....


{I have no problem with the success of Vermillion ranches, only with the success Mr. G enjoyed in convincing the "little guys" he had their best interests first in his heart, and with the tactics and lies used to convince them that the Beef checkoff was not being used in their benefit, or that ranchers were not running the checkoff......and the list could go on, but you won't find criticism simply of the fact of his ranching success, since I know nothing about how he achieved it. MRJ}




I always have to chuckle when they say we have no traceback- the whole road map of their life is right there in front of you- and I don't need any $3000 RFID reader to tell me that or what year they were born....The year number is right there too....

{So, we have SOME cattle that are "traceable"......but what percentage of the total US herd is????? MRJ}

 

[Tam]

Slow day today Tam- you decide to practice your fiction novel writing :lol:

All I gathered out of your page of mumbo jumbo is that you think Canada shouldn't have to take US beef because we aren't both equal in standards---I agree...I don't think anyone should have to take beef or any other product from someone just because of some treaty or what some foreign trade organization in Brussels says...

How about- You keep your beef- We keep ours.....Then we don't have to worry about all this paperwork, treaties or Homeland Security....Keep things simple :wink:

Oldtimer this isn't R-CALFs web site this is ranchers.net where the truth goes farther than fiction. And accusations somethings come with proof. So if you think this is fiction prove it. :wink: right back at you.

And DOES EVERY STATE IN THE USA HAVE BRAND INSPECTION. YES or NO.

Oldtimer I think that all consumers of US beef deserve to know where their beef really comes from and you know what Oldtimer Canadians are consumers of US beef and Japan and the rest of the beef importing countries that open their borders to you will be consumers of US beef. And if you cared at all about the risk you will be putting us at with your BSE tainted beef you would want tp prove where your beef really comes from and take responsiblity for it just like you expect Canadian rancher to do.

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- what percentage of your precious Canadian herd now have total traceback and birth dates? 15%- 20% or less than that.... I read the other day that it was less than 30% on ages alone this year.......

If your country does not like the way the US produces beef- don't buy it.....

I happen to agree with the Japanese- they are the consumer- the consumer should have the say on what they want to buy and what they don't.....If they want it tested- we should test if we want to sell to them....If they want to buy only those with age and feed affidavits- great- they are the consumer... I am not a backer of NCBA's "have Congress put the screws to them" point of view......

Consumers in the US would just like to know which country the beef they are buying comes from- let alone which ranch.....

And as far as your argument that we don't have enough beef to fill the Japanese and Asian market-- my feelings are that IF and WHEN we get the market back- then we should import what beef we need - But not until then......

On another subject--Where are all these packing plants you guys are building- what is the status on them? Are they going to get going?
Locally many here agree with me that strengthening the Canadian slaughter industry could be good locally---Especially if some of the Independent plants can survive and make competition for the Conglomerates and Then if the border ever truly reopened both ways and Canada dropped its 10+ years trade barriers to US cattle, we could be much closer to slaughter houses than we are now.......

 

[Sandhusker]

"36 other nations already require some form of country-of-origin labeling on imported food products, and U.S. exporters of those products regularly comply with those labeling regulations." The GAO surveyed 57 U.S. trading partner countries and found that 48 require country of origin labeling for one or more of the commodities covered by the new law.

The European Union imposes country of origin labeling regulations for fruits and vegetables, fish and shellfish and beef. Japan requires country of origin labeling for all foods covered by the US law. [21]

Eight states have COOL laws.[22] Florida's program mainly covers fresh produce. It has been operating for more than 10 years as an extension of its food safety inspection regulations. Two to three times a year inspectors visit Florida grocery stores to check cleanliness, food storage temperatures, meat handling procedures and country of origin labeling. The COOL requirement takes about 15 minutes. The inspectors check the shipping boxes and packagers in the store against the display signs or labels. Florida does not require a verifiable audit trail and only requires imported products to be labeled.

Thanks for the info, Porker.

So many others are already doing it, but the packers and USDA say it will be too expensive for us. roll: Makes as much sense as claiming the Japanese and Koreans see value in US beef, but Americans would not. And some people actually believe them... :roll:

 

[Tam]

Tam- what percentage of your precious Canadian herd now have total traceback and birth dates? 15%- 20% or less than that.... I read the other day that it was less than 30% on ages alone this year.......

I think I heard we have about 800,000 exportable cattle registered for birth date now, so percentage wise the US would have to have about 5,600,000 registered. How long do you think it will take the US to register 5.6 million head for birth date alone Oldtimer? As for the traceback since exportable cattle are all under the age of thirty months just how hard will it be to trace them if you have the birth place and the last owner known before the search ever has to get started. By asking both of the known producers one simple question the full trace could be done. ask the first producer who he sold to and the last producer who he bought from and if they match the search is done. We are only talking about a short life span here.

If your country does not like the way the US produces beef- don't buy it.....

Well Oldtimer someone in the US must like the way we produce beef as our sale barns are loaded with US buyers and our slaughter houses are working over time to process all the beef that someone in the US is buying and eating. Isn't that why R-CALF is fighting to close the border again as you don't like the fact our beef is being enjoyed in the US by US consumers. OH I know if you had M"COOL the US consumer would know it was Canadian and not US so it wouldn't sell. That argument might hold if it wasn't for the fact that US consumers even with M'COOL would still be eating our beef without knowing as not all meat in the US will be labeled.

I happen to agree with the Japanese- they are the consumer- the consumer should have the say on what they want to buy and what they don't.....If they want it tested- we should test if we want to sell to them....If they want to buy only those with age and feed affidavits- great- they are the consumer... I am not a backer of NCBA's "have Congress put the screws to them" point of view......

Gee Oldtimer you are willing to give the Japanese what they want as they are the consumers but what about the US consumers?

Consumers in the US would just like to know which country the beef they are buying comes from- let alone which ranch.....

Oh this was written by a US consumer of beef with what I think is a finger on what the US consumer wants.

The demand for source- and age-verified cattle is growing at a phenomenal rate both domestically and globally. The driver behind traceability is, and always will be, the marketplace. Being sidetracked by the food-safety and animal-health aspects, we've failed to embrace the desires of the marketplace.

If we'd focused on our customers, it's unlikely we'd find ourselves in the position of not only trailing nearly every beef-producing country in the world, but at risk of being uncompetitive in a large part of the global market.

The interminable delay in getting the Japanese and Korean borders open should have given us ample time to move forward. Instead, we essentially squandered it.

Attend meetings and you'll hear what Japan, Costco, Wal-Mart, McDonald's and our other customers are saying. It's not about a government-mandated program; it's about an industry responding to consumer demands.
The question shouldn't be whether the government timeline for ID implementation is too aggressive. It should be about how we can get a system implemented more quickly.

Canada has regained a much higher portion than the U.S. of its lost markets, but the message has been lost on U.S. cattlemen. The issue of traceability -- source, age or process verification -- isn't about governments, trade, food safety or animal health. It's about responding to the marketplace.

And as far as your argument that we don't have enough beef to fill the Japanese and Asian market-- my feelings are that IF and WHEN we get the market back- then we should import what beef we need - But not until then......

that might be OK if you didn't need imports to supply your domestic markets with beef everyone can still afford.

On another subject--Where are all these packing plants you guys are building- what is the status on them? Are they going to get going?
Locally many here agree with me that strengthening the Canadian slaughter industry could be good locally---Especially if some of the Independent plants can survive and make competition for the Conglomerates and Then if the border ever truly reopened both ways and Canada dropped its 10+ years trade barriers to US cattle, we could be much closer to slaughter houses than we are now....

Why are you worried about our slaughter capacity and why should we take your BSE tainted cattle Oldtimer you are the ones that refuse to live by the rules that you think you can force on us. What about our homeland security and the risk your cattle could cause to us. Don't we have the same right to know as the US consumers when it comes to imported product?