cowsense
Well-known member
Sean......You nailed it! At least that's my opinion too & I'll stick to it!
Maternal genetics
- Thread starter leanin' H
- Start date
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
something our Dads had figured out 40 years agho we just had to reinvent the wheel every generation lol
andybob
Well-known member
When I made my breed choice in 1970, I went for what had been proven to make a profit in my very challenging environment. A medium framed easy keeper with exeptional fertility and mothering as proven in government research over several years, filled all my requirements, especially as I later had an exhausting military deployment schedule.
Despite being selected on maternal merit, the carcases were graded in our higher range, straight off native grass. I provided some F1 heifers for another larger ranch who then produced a terminal generation for their feedlo/butchery business. Neighbours added heterosis and muscle by crossing with British genetics, Sussex being the best in our environment, black cattle of any breed didn't cope, and most exotics struggled with the parasites and diseases, requiring dipping for tick controll, wide spectrum vaccination, and winter feeding, all adding to cost of production per weaned calf. Maternal breeds and F1 cattle adapted to the local environment are the most profitable, with the option of using a terminal on the poorer producers to achieve the required carcase weight or colour for CAB premium.
Despite being selected on maternal merit, the carcases were graded in our higher range, straight off native grass. I provided some F1 heifers for another larger ranch who then produced a terminal generation for their feedlo/butchery business. Neighbours added heterosis and muscle by crossing with British genetics, Sussex being the best in our environment, black cattle of any breed didn't cope, and most exotics struggled with the parasites and diseases, requiring dipping for tick controll, wide spectrum vaccination, and winter feeding, all adding to cost of production per weaned calf. Maternal breeds and F1 cattle adapted to the local environment are the most profitable, with the option of using a terminal on the poorer producers to achieve the required carcase weight or colour for CAB premium.
Grassfarmer
Well-known member
Don't think I've really discovered anything RSL - well other than maybe discovering that there are some smarter people out there I can learn from because they have it figured out already. As NR says it's nothing our fathers and grandfathers didn't know.RSL said:
I think we are living in a genetic dark age with the dumbing down that goes on so that anyone that can read EPD numbers and multiply them to come up with a bigger total is a cattle breeding genius. Take away the props, the better nutrition management and medicines and I doubt most of today's cattle are any better than those of 100 years ago. I have a real admiration for the guys that created and refined types of cattle into the breeds we know today - now they had a genius.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
In the Angus breed were kind of l;oising the middle-we have the big corn fed racehorses and the teeny weenies that are supposed to be the grass type. The middle that made the breed what it is aren't that popular it seems.
Mind you what I call middle of the road m ight be the ditch to some lol.
Mind you what I call middle of the road m ight be the ditch to some lol.
leanin' H
Well-known member
A nice balanced Angus will always be a good bet. While some do chase extremes, some stay the course. :wink: Ask Soap! And lots of commercial outfits i know of that build around balance.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Balanced in what context?leanin' H said:
I think Soapweed has it exactly right!
I think it is fair to say that back when I was smart my dad got pretty dumb, but as I have dumbed down, he has gotten pretty smart. It's amazing how much stuff he learned from the time I was a teen until I hit my 20's.Northern Rancher said:
leanin' H
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
I agree. My definition of balance is a moderate framed cow with a good bag that sticks around for 12 years or better and carries that uniformity through a set of cows. I don't like WW EPD's over 50, YW over 90 or Milk over 25. What some folks seem to forget is that during the 80's when they were crossing Angus with everything from Belgian plow horses to elephants, there were still some guys who stayed with balanced middle of the road cattle. They still exist in pretty fair numbers today. Not everyone chases numbers, especially carcass, and disregards everything else. Soap is doing it right in my eyes, which means that Soap ought'a change stuff in a hurry as what I like usually doesnt work! :wink:
andybob
Well-known member
Northern Rancher said:
The traditional native Aberdeen Angus still hold their own as a grazing breed, the herd here gets no supplimentary feed, only minerals, and have outwintered on native pasture, when this and other breeds were selected for non traditional traits, and other genetics added we lost the traditional breed characteristics, the demand for the few remaining unadulterated native Angus and Hereford has increased with the need for easy keeping cattle for the temperate climate herds. I,ll get some pictures of some of the herd here for the weekend.
Soapweed
Well-known member
leanin' H said:
I'm not doing things too right, or I wouldn't be calving today, in this weather. :roll: :wink:
I remembered why I don't try to calve in April and May. It's because I'd rather calve in snow than rain. We got a cold wet spring rain during the night, and it is chilly on the new babies. Oh well, the good start to the grass before too long will make it all worthwhile.As far as our cattle program, I just try to stay in the middle of the road. Our cows aren't really good and they are not really bad, but they are all about the same. As far as buying someone's "best" bulls, like it or not, that usually means buying their biggest bulls. I don't want that. Numbers don't mean anything to me, and the bulls I buy don't have any numbers. What does mean something to me is how a bull looks, how he travels, and his disposition. We have quite a bunch of cows that are eleven years old this spring, and they are still going strong and having great calves. They have stood the test of time, and I expect their younger sisters to do likewise.
Badlands
Well-known member
Several people have referred to "middle of the road". What is that?
Middle of the road cattle in the 60's, 70's or 80's are not middle of the road now.
NR, not to pick on you directly, but to use your example to discuss-
I believe that the "middle that made the breed" was actually lower performing than some of the low-input cattle that are available today. How does that work? Are we really talking about what makes a breed work today, or are we just reminiscing? Are we just using "middle of the road" as term that makes us feel good and helps us sell a bull, or does it really mean something?
Badlands
Middle of the road cattle in the 60's, 70's or 80's are not middle of the road now.
NR, not to pick on you directly, but to use your example to discuss-
I believe that the "middle that made the breed" was actually lower performing than some of the low-input cattle that are available today. How does that work? Are we really talking about what makes a breed work today, or are we just reminiscing? Are we just using "middle of the road" as term that makes us feel good and helps us sell a bull, or does it really mean something?
Badlands
A
Anonymous
Guest
Everyone has a little differing middle of the road...When I think middle of the road I look for no extremes anywhere- and use the EPD's mainly to see that there are no real "outlier" characteristics...
After deciding I like the phenotype and pedigree- I use the EPD's to give me a further idea of what they will do...
My target angus animal to raise is middle of the road on EPD's too-
BW- -1 to +3
WW- 20 to 40
YW- 40 to 70
Milk- 15 to 20
$EN 10+
$W 20+ (like to see a combination of the $EN + $W be over 40)
with a positive scrotal- marb.- and RE-- that will mature in a 4-6 frame....
Unlike many high performance cattle- I also like to see a + fat, because I think in these colder temps that is needed and better for efficiency....
After deciding I like the phenotype and pedigree- I use the EPD's to give me a further idea of what they will do...
My target angus animal to raise is middle of the road on EPD's too-
BW- -1 to +3
WW- 20 to 40
YW- 40 to 70
Milk- 15 to 20
$EN 10+
$W 20+ (like to see a combination of the $EN + $W be over 40)
with a positive scrotal- marb.- and RE-- that will mature in a 4-6 frame....
Unlike many high performance cattle- I also like to see a + fat, because I think in these colder temps that is needed and better for efficiency....
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
It means something to me and the people I do business with and that is really all that matters. We've pretty much run the same type of cattle for a long time here and never chasaed the fads and figures. I guess I'm reminscing about the good old days because inn alot of ways genetically they were.
leanin' H
Well-known member
Do cattle in all breed evolve? Sure. But middle of the road cattle stay in style long after the fads have burnt out. And don't blame the flavor of the month bulls on purebred outfits because they just sell them. SOMEBODY must be buying the bulls and the semen or they wouldnt be popular! All these crazy EPD numbers that combine everything into one is what I stay away from. I want to keep heifers and sell a few as replacements. I direct market the steers and cull heifers as fat beef. While providing a great piece of meat is important, since I am not looking for grid premiums, I am not forced to follow the carcass parade that you see with lots of bulls today. My middle of the road cow isnt a two foot tall rectangle from 1940 or a 17 hand high 1800 pound finish weight from 1984. Middle, bottom and top means different things to us all I am sure. But they sure work swell in this desert country.
I guess my question on this thread is, when did we actually get off track as a whole? Were the cattle of yesterday so much better across the board? I know operations where they breed good cattle and their grandparents bred good cattle, etc., but I have also seen pictures of what to my eye appear relatively useless cattle in the 1980's, 1950's, 1930's. 1880's, etc. I know the economics at our place are different today than they were when my great great grandfather started, and when my dad took over, and they will change again before my kids want to farm. I guess what I am asking is this...
If we are going off the rails, is it a current or ongoing tragedy, and if so what year/era were we on the rails?
Hindsight is always 20:20 and I am sure we have screwed lots of things up today that we will realize tomorrow, but as a whole I think we must have been 50% or more right over time.
If we are going off the rails, is it a current or ongoing tragedy, and if so what year/era were we on the rails?
Hindsight is always 20:20 and I am sure we have screwed lots of things up today that we will realize tomorrow, but as a whole I think we must have been 50% or more right over time.
RobertMac
Well-known member
H, you're absolutely right..."middle of the road" depends on where your road is!!!!
The thing I like about Soapweed's operation is that he runs cattle that work for him on his ranch without a lot of extras, but enough to take good care of his cattle. Keeps his own replacements. If I remember right, he buys bulls from someone that raises his cattle under commercial conditions and, as Soapweed said,"Numbers don't mean anything to me..." and I agree...sorry, Badlands. :wink: Calving season could be debatable, but, given his reason, it would be hard to argue.
To me, middle of the road is the type cattle your environment will support.
The thing I like about Soapweed's operation is that he runs cattle that work for him on his ranch without a lot of extras, but enough to take good care of his cattle. Keeps his own replacements. If I remember right, he buys bulls from someone that raises his cattle under commercial conditions and, as Soapweed said,"Numbers don't mean anything to me..." and I agree...sorry, Badlands. :wink: Calving season could be debatable, but, given his reason, it would be hard to argue.
To me, middle of the road is the type cattle your environment will support.
Soapweed
Well-known member
RSL said:I guess my question on this thread is, when did we actually get off track as a whole? Were the cattle of yesterday so much better across the board? I know operations where they breed good cattle and their grandparents bred good cattle, etc., but I have also seen pictures of what to my eye appear relatively useless cattle in the 1980's, 1950's, 1930's. 1880's, etc. I know the economics at our place are different today than they were when my great great grandfather started, and when my dad took over, and they will change again before my kids want to farm. I guess what I am asking is this...
If we are going off the rails, is it a current or ongoing tragedy, and if so what year/era were we on the rails?
Hindsight is always 20:20 and I am sure we have screwed lots of things up today that we will realize tomorrow, but as a whole I think we must have been 50% or more right over time.
Those little belt-buckle tall Herefords and Angus of the 1950's really look quite insignificant, inefficient, and slightly disgusting to my eye, and yet some of the seedstock sold for oodles of money. Fads are so fashionable and frivilous, no matter if it is pants with the crotch at the knee, ostriches, Vietnamese pot-bellied pigs, or cattle that are either cutsie or racehorse look-a-likes. Give me the middle of the road any day.
It is interesting how the odds compile when you throw a pair of dice. Here is the webpage:
http://www.nextshooter.com/trueodds
You will see that there is only one way to make the numbers two (1 and 1) and twelve (6 and 6). There are two ways to make the number three: (2 and 1) and (1 and 2). If it helps you to understand the combinations, picture a blue and a red die. You could have number one on the red and two on the blue, or number two on the red and number one on the blue.
There are two ways to make the three and eleven.
There are three ways to make the four and ten.
There are four ways to make the five and nine.
There are five ways to make the six and eight.
There are six ways to make the seven.
Anyway, my point with the dice is that betting middle of the road is easier to stay on course there, too. :wink:
Big Swede
Well-known member
When I was younger we had so much more variation in our cowherd. Most of the reason was that we were using a couple different breeds for crossbreeding purposes. We were also using different types due to using more than one breed. So you go to one place and buy a couple bulls and somewhere else and buy a couple bulls and so on and so forth. I was also on a very tight budget at the time so the bulls that I would pick out would usually be out of my price range. Do this for a few years and you can imagine the variations of dispositions, udder qualities, sizes, types, growth, etc. Speaking of middle of the road cattle didn't mean much at that time because it was a very wide road. For the last 25 years we have been straightbreeding Angus and for the past 13 years we have been buying commercial 1/2 brother Angus bulls from one operation. Now the middle of a narrow road has resulted in a much more uniform herd of cattle. Udder quality and disposition problems are now nonexistent.
I agree with Oldtimers EPD ranges for maternal Angus cattle. All those are probably below herd average for the breed I would guess. Just because they are below herd average doesn't mean you will be giving up a lot of performance, but it should mean that they should be more sustainable in most if not all environments.
One thing I will disagree with Soapweed on is that his bulls do have numbers even though they are not officially written down on a registration paper. If you are satisfied with the bulls your supplier is using to produce your seedstock, it must mean that his eye for cattle must be similar to your own otherwise Soap wouldn't be buying them. One great thing about using commercial bulls is that you can buy your picks of the herd out of their proven cows and you can save tens of thousands of dollars per year.
I agree with Oldtimers EPD ranges for maternal Angus cattle. All those are probably below herd average for the breed I would guess. Just because they are below herd average doesn't mean you will be giving up a lot of performance, but it should mean that they should be more sustainable in most if not all environments.
One thing I will disagree with Soapweed on is that his bulls do have numbers even though they are not officially written down on a registration paper. If you are satisfied with the bulls your supplier is using to produce your seedstock, it must mean that his eye for cattle must be similar to your own otherwise Soap wouldn't be buying them. One great thing about using commercial bulls is that you can buy your picks of the herd out of their proven cows and you can save tens of thousands of dollars per year.
gcreekrch
Well-known member
Hey Soap.
You wouldn't have the words to "The Cow Commitee" by Baxter Black would you? This and a couple of other threads bring me in mind of that poem. :wink:
Once upon a time,
angels stood upon a cloud,
they were, The Cow Commitee...................................
You wouldn't have the words to "The Cow Commitee" by Baxter Black would you? This and a couple of other threads bring me in mind of that poem. :wink:
Once upon a time,
angels stood upon a cloud,
they were, The Cow Commitee...................................
