Oldtimer admits MCOOL is a crock

[Jason]

Mike you missed the 'he' who was refered to as being wrong. Go back and see Agman said Leo is wrong.

COOL and consumers wanting tracback are different issues. Most consumers like to know where their food comes from, just look at the success of farmer's markets. COOL is a flawed law that really does nothing but hurt producers with costs with no benefits.

 

[Mike]

Mike you missed the 'he' who was refered to as being wrong. Go back and see Agman said Leo is wrong.

COOL and consumers wanting tracback are different issues. Most consumers like to know where their food comes from, just look at the success of farmer's markets. COOL is a flawed law that really does nothing but hurt producers with costs with no benefits.

Agman:

They want full traceback right to your doorstep.

(They- meaning the customer)

SH had adamantly said many times the customer doesn't care or the branded beef (traceable) programs would be doing better.

Personally I want it "Pasture to Plate" also. The COOL LAW could have have done it if it had passed, then phased the exemptions out as planned.

An ID system that the USDA could not mandate would have been worked out by all involved by now and we would have a National ID program.

 

[Tam]

That is the comon sense method-- too simple for government work tho :wink:

Yes it is simple isn't it. It simply doesn't tell the packers or consumers where it was raised in the US. Isn't that why you don't want M"ID" as if they knew who raised the beef they could hold you accountable for the quality and safety of the meat. But if they don't you as a producer will not have to take responsibility.

Tam- I been ID'ing mine for-ever---so don't give me that Canadian holier than thou speech-- Used brands and have recorded info far back into the 30's and 40's-- Used ear tags to correspond with the recorded info starting in the 60's- along with brands for true permanent ID's......
At least I don't have illegal contraband cattle that I don't know where they came from like some, Canadian Tam....[b][/b]

You said yourself Oldtimer that there are people in the US that don't know what the CAN brand is so why would they know what yours is. Do all people use brands NO and that is why not all cattle in the US can be traced. Can a packer look at your brand and know it came from your herd without a long search?
You know Oldtimer everytime you bring up those heifers only makes me believe you have nothing else against the Canadian beef industry and you are grasping at anything to discredit. Besides are you sure that it was a Canadian that took those heifers out of the feeder program and sold them at the auction we bought them at? Or could it have been an American that did it? :shock: We bought them in good faith and we told the USDA vet about them that is how we found out what the tag was. If they were true contraband cattle don't you think the USDA would have done something about them. :roll: What happen here wasn't like what the former USDA vet and US sale barn owner were caught doing. Cutting tags out of Canadian heifers and loosing the health papers and shipping them across State lines. At least our heifer still had the tags in the ears so we could see they were from the US.

 

[Tam]

Mike you missed the 'he' who was refered to as being wrong. Go back and see Agman said Leo is wrong.

COOL and consumers wanting tracback are different issues. Most consumers like to know where their food comes from, just look at the success of farmer's markets. COOL is a flawed law that really does nothing but hurt producers with costs with no benefits.

Agman:

They want full traceback right to your doorstep.

(They- meaning the customer)

SH had adamantly said many times the customer doesn't care or the branded beef (traceable) programs would be doing better.

Personally I want it "Pasture to Plate" also. The COOL LAW could have have done it if it had passed, then phased the exemptions out as planned.

An ID system that the USDA could not mandate would have been worked out by all involved by now and we would have a National ID program.

How can you say it would have been worked out? You still have R-CALF plaining stating on TV that all the US needs to do label the imports. And guys like Oldtimer thinking his brand that has worked for the past one hundred years should still do the job even though not everyone even knows what a brand is. :roll:

 

[Mike]

How can you say it would have been worked out?

There would have been no other choice but for it to work itself out had it passed. Like I have said before, in order to prove where something AIN'T FROM, you first have to prove where it IS FROM.

All COOL demanded was an audit trail. However it happens is fine by me. But, I figure that it would have been tags. The most simple way.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike: "SH had adamantly said many times the customer doesn't care or the branded beef (traceable) programs would be doing better."

It's true that most consumers do not care about "COUNTRY of origin".

Some consumers care about traceback but "M"COOL never offered traceback. In fact, "M"COOL specifically forbid "M"ID.

Testimony to the brilliance of R-CULT!

Agman never said "EVERY BEEF CONSUMER CARES ABOUT TRACEBACK". What he's saying is those consumers who do care about origination care about SOURCE VERIFICATION (TRACEBACK), NOT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN.

There is no contradiction!

Mike: Personally I want it "Pasture to Plate" also. The COOL LAW could have have done it if it had passed, then phased the exemptions out as planned."

Oh bull!

"M"COOL specifically prohibited "M"ID so what's this talk about "pasture to plate" traceback?

"M"COOL proponent after "M"COOL proponent testified to not wanting to be burdened with source verification and that's why Leo wrote the law as currently flawed.

Phase out the exemptions as planned? R-CULT wasn't going to get "M"COOL passed the front door without the exemptions.

Where the heck is the protesters asking for the "Country of origin" of the hamburger on their Dominos Pizza?

Where the heck is the protesters asking for the "Country of origin" of the hamburger in their big macs?

SYMBOLISM OVER SUBSTANCE!

Mike: "An ID system that the USDA could not mandate would have been worked out by all involved by now and we would have a National ID program."

"M"ID was specifically prohibited from "M"COOL.

What don't you understand about that Mike?

"M"COOL proponents wanted "COUNTRY OF ORIGIN" not "FARM OF ORIGIN", remember?



~SH~

 

[Mike]

COOL DEMANDS AN AUDIT TRAIL, VERIFIABLE BY A THIRD PARTY.

HOW CAN THERE BE AN AUDIT TRAIL WITHOUT ID? The law specifically stated that the USDA could not mandate any particular ID SYSTEM.
Reasonable people know that in order to track something, it HAS to be IDENTIFIED.

 

[Anonymous]

"M"COOL DEMANDS AN AUDIT TRAIL BUT "M"COOL TRUMPED THE AUDIT TRAIL BY SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDING A MANDATORY ID PROGRAM MAKING THE LAW UNENFORCEABLE"

"M"ID WAS PROHIBITED FROM "M"COOL!

Remember the "SIGNED AFFIDAVITS" argument due to liability concerns about traceback?

Remeber the argument, "WE WANT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN, NOT FARM OF ORIGIN"????

"M"COOL was gutted when they prohibited "M"ID. That's why the law is unenforceable as written.

You can demand an audit trail all you want but when you prohibited "M"ID, you have effectively gutted the law.

SYMBOLISM OVER SUBSTANCE!

Mike: "Reasonable people know that in order to track something, it HAS to be IDENTIFIED."

EXACTLY!

We are not dealing with reasonable people!

We are dealing with "WE WANT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN, NOT FARM OF ORIGIN" people.

We are dealing with "DON'T BURDEN ME WITH TRACEBACK AFTER I DEMANDED PROOF OF WHERE ANIMALS WERE BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUHGTERED" people.

We are basically dealing with idiots!


~SH~

 

[Mike]

I saw some letters to the auction barns from the packers stating that no cattle without traceable ID would be bought when COOL went into effect.

There would have been two types of cattle had COOL passed.

1- ID'ed cattle that could have gone to any market.

2- UN-ID'ed cattle that would have been bound to the foodservice industry and would have taken a hit in price.

I figure one year would have put those naysayers on board.

 

[PORKER]

brands and have recorded info far back into the 30's and 40's-- Used ear tags to correspond with the recorded info starting in the 60's- along with brands for true permanent ID's......

BRANDS ARE PREMISES CODES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RANCHERS that BRANDED or tattoed an ANIMAL ALWAYS had TRACEBACK !!

 

[RobertMac]

SH: "SYMBOLISM OVER SUBSTANCE!"

Here is your substance...the organic food segment is predicted to triple it's market share in the next five years.

Almost every Super Wal-Mart has an organic food section.

Swift purchases Coleman and B3R(???)

The point is that people ARE demanding to know where their food comes from and how it was raised and that it BE SAFE and the food industry(at least some of it) is reacting. There is also a large(and growing) number of people that don't trust Tyson, ConAgra, And Cargill to put consumer safety ahead of their profits. Their proof comes from every recall, BSE presented as a self inflicted industry problem, and their arrogance to deny information to the consumer.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike: "I saw some letters to the auction barns from the packers stating that no cattle without traceable ID would be bought when COOL went into effect."

AND WHAT WAS R-CULT'S REACTION?????

R-CULT went straight to GIPSA to see if the packers could legally request this information because that is exactly what they didn't want. They specifically forbid a mandatory traceback system.

R-CULT demanded proof of where cattle were "BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUGHTERD" but did not want to be burdened with providing that proof.

Yet they sit there and bench at USDA for requiring a traceback system WHEN THEY THEMESELVES DEMANDED PROOF OF WHERE CATTLE WERE "BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUGHTERED". They wanted proof of origination as long as they didn't have to provide that proof.

"JUST MARK THE IMPORTS, JUST MARK THE IMPORTS"

That is the hypocrisy we are dealing with when it comes to R-CULT.

That's why Leo was bouncing back and forth between supporting "M"ID and opposing "M"ID. He threw something out there for everyone and never took a position on the issue because he's caught in the middle of a "CATCH 22" AND HE KNOWS IT.

When "M"COOL was first initiated, you could ask any "M"COOL proponent if they wanted "M"ID and they would have said "NO".

Now they are backpeddling knowing that "M"COOL without "M"ID makes the law worthless.

Porker: "BRANDS ARE PREMISES CODES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RANCHERS that BRANDED or tattoed an ANIMAL ALWAYS had TRACEBACK !!"

BRANDS ARE ONLY PREMISE CODES WITHIN THE BRAND INSPECTION AREAS.

BRANDS ARE DUPLICATED BETWEEN VARYING STATES.

USING BRANDS AS SOURCE VERIFICATION WILL REQUIRE STATE DIFFERENTIATION IN ADDITION TO THAT BRAND.

Using brands as source verification will require brand inspectors who can read "blotchy" brands. The "blotchy" brands that cannot be read will go into the "CANNOT ID" pen.

RM: "The point is that people ARE demanding to know where their food comes from and how it was raised and that it BE SAFE and the food industry(at least some of it) is reacting."

SOME people are demanding to know EXACTLY where their food comes from WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "FLAWED COOL" WHICH PROHIBITED "M"ID. You are talking about TRACEBACK not COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. Apples and oranges. "M"COOL, as written, has nothing to do with traceback.

SOME people are demanding to know how their beef is raised WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "FLAWED COOL" WHICH PROHIBITED "M"ID.

All consumers are concerned about food safety WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "FLAWED COOL" WHICH PROHIBITED "M"ID.

RM: "There is also a large(and growing) number of people that don't trust Tyson, ConAgra, And Cargill to put consumer safety ahead of their profits."

Hence the hypocrisy in an unenforceable "M"COOL law that trusts packers to label beef correctly without accountability.

Wait a minute, didn't R-CULT say we had the safest beef in the world? How can we have the safest beef in the world if there is a growing number of people that don't trust Tyson, Con Agra, and Cargill to put consumer safety ahead of their profits?

PICK AN ARGUMENT AND STICK WITH IT ROBERT MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!

RM: "Their proof comes from every recall, BSE presented as a self inflicted industry problem, and their arrogance to deny information to the consumer."

I'll take that as your contradiction to R-CULT's statement that we have the safest beef in the world.

Deny information to the consumer?

How do you explain the source verified branded beef programs these companies currently offer if they are denying information to the consumer?

How do you explain Excel's "RANCHERS RENASSAINCE" in light of that statement?

Once again the facts shoot your packer blaming conspiracy theories down in flames.


Just like a drunk who keeps staggering back into the bar to take another beating with the facts.


~SH~

 

[mrj]

brands and have recorded info far back into the 30's and 40's-- Used ear tags to correspond with the recorded info starting in the 60's- along with brands for true permanent ID's......

BRANDS ARE PREMISES CODES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RANCHERS that BRANDED or tattoed an ANIMAL ALWAYS had TRACEBACK !!

{Are you saying there is no possibility that calves carrying the identical brand in the identical location, each legal in states SD, ND, TX, OK, WY, as an example, could be co-mingled in the same feedlot in KS? It would take quite some time to determine which ranch one calf out of that bunch came from. It might well be impossible without DNA to trace it back to the cow. What would be the cost of that "system"? Who would bear the cost?

MRJ}

 

[PORKER]

MRJ,START an account in scoringAg for $10.00 bucks and you will see what I mean.

 

[Murgen]

As for your other comments, they are typical of you. The connection between feed and BSE is well established, hence range fed beef is less risky by far. We have been in this discussion before and as usual you misunderstand what I am saying. I'll spell it out once more:

Reader, what % of non-range fed beef is fed an off-farm prepared feed?

 

[Tam]

As for your other comments, they are typical of you. The connection between feed and BSE is well established, hence range fed beef is less risky by far. We have been in this discussion before and as usual you misunderstand what I am saying. I'll spell it out once more:

Reader, what % of non-range fed beef is fed an off-farm prepared feed?

Murgen - I don't know and there's the rub. We don't know what feed the beef we consume was fed. We don't know where it came from. We don't know how old it was. Do you know the answer or is there any finding out the answer? I doubt it.

I'd prefer to eat beef from younger cattle (under 20 months) that were not fed questionable feed. Call it an abundance of caution or call it paranoia or whatever you want.

I do eat non-grass fed when I have no choice such as when I am fed beef as a guest. I'm as fond of a good steak as you all are, believe me.

I also got really really tired of chicken and fish. And I'm tired of only having "organic" ground beef at my local market. Once the Whole Foods Market opens near me, I'll be buying Coleman beef.

Reader you say you eat Chicken do you read what state the chicken comes from before you eat it? When we import chicken from the US in our groceies we are to know what state it comes from as some states have diseased chicken and it is not allowed into Canada. Then there is the Avian flu in chickens what do you think of that? You also say you eat fish with all the water poplution in the world are you sure the fish you are eating is healthy. your statement "Call it an abundance of caution or call it paranoia or whatever you want. " I'm just wondering does your abundance of caution or paranoia also effect your buying when it comes to these meats. Or does it effect your habits when you buy fresh fruits and vegs. that may have not been harvested in the more sanitary conditions.

 

[Murgen]

Tam- I been ID'ing mine for-ever---so don't give me that Canadian holier than thou speech-- Used brands and have recorded info far back into the 30's and 40's-- Used ear tags to correspond with the recorded info starting in the 60's- along with brands for true permanent ID's......
At least I don't have illegal contraband cattle that I don't know where they came from like some, Canadian Tam....[

OT, have brands ever been altered? The only true identification system would be one that uses DNA to identify cuts of meat to an individual animal, or a batch of mixed burger to a small group of animals.

By the way, this would be much cheaper than labeleling every cut of meat and tying to an individual. Food safety issues rarely occur, and to label everything for the rare cases would be expensive.

It would be more economical to have the ability to trace it, but only in those cases when the need arises!

 

[Anonymous]

Tam- I been ID'ing mine for-ever---so don't give me that Canadian holier than thou speech-- Used brands and have recorded info far back into the 30's and 40's-- Used ear tags to correspond with the recorded info starting in the 60's- along with brands for true permanent ID's......
At least I don't have illegal contraband cattle that I don't know where they came from like some, Canadian Tam....[

OT, have brands ever been altered? The only true identification system would be one that uses DNA to identify cuts of meat to an individual animal, or a batch of mixed burger to a small group of animals.

By the way, this would be much cheaper than labeleling every cut of meat and tying to an individual. Food safety issues rarely occur, and to label everything for the rare cases would be expensive.

It would be more economical to have the ability to trace it, but only in those cases when the need arises!

Brands have been altered- but the alterations can be detected, especially after slaughter....

Do I get you right- that you propose DNA testing all cattle? :???: That that would be cheaper? :???:

Apparently you haven't paid for any DNA work lately :wink:

 

[Murgen]

Do I get you right- that you propose DNA testing all cattle? That that would be cheaper?

Apparently you haven't paid for any DNA work lately

Nope, haven't paid anything for DNA testing lately, but I'm aware of the pricing! And I agree with you that DNA testing is a little out of line, price wise, for the commercial man at this time. But it is a science that is accurate and will drop in price as volume goes up! Associations already have the DNA on file and could negotiate this as identification, if working with the right labs.

Most companies that have DNA testing available can identify by DNA and the producer can benefit from the other traits tested for! (in most cases the identification is an added benefit)

What would be the cost, throughout the system of labelling a cut of beef as identifiable, (using a UPC symbol, or what ever method, segregating cuts/per animal within plant), compared to having DNA on file and then crosschecking that cut of beef to DNA profile, if ever a food safety issue was present? Just having the ability to do so, would this not satisfy the consumer?)

I guarantee the food safety issue, might come up one in a million times. The labelling of ever piece of meat to individual source animal would be much more costly.

Branded beef products are already using the technology, and costs are spread throughout the value added chain. Benefits are far outweighing the costs.

When the barcoded tags were being introduced in Canada, the RFID tags were already being talked about. Why would I buy tags that would be obsolete in two years? Why are we being told to buy RFID tags now that will be obsolete in 2-3 years? Why not look forward to the way things will be in a few years and use that technology now and save yourself the cost over the long term? RFID tags at present are not "writable", you can not program any info. onto them. The next generation of tags will be "programmed" with Birthdate etc. So, you might as well have DNA on file, it's going to go that way in the future.

My opinion, but I'm a CSI fan too.

 

[Murgen]

As far as COOL goes, it is being promoted by RCALF as a food safety issue, but all it is a barrier to trade and a Country of Loyalty exercise.

If the USDA has safety standards in place for importing countries, what does it matter what country it comes from, if they are following the same or higher standards?

If Labelling is used as a food safety and auditing system, then you must have traceback to individual animal and premises.

Individual traceback will ensure a quick method of tracing animals back throughout different sources and allow for followup to other ranches and sources of origin.

For example, FMD, if we had individual traceback and it was computerized, in minutes we could have access to records of source, region, herd etc. that the animal was exposed to.

With COOL, "well that FMD animal came from the US, Canada, Mexico, now let's get out there and find where it has travelled in the last month."

Pretty hard to contain a COOL animal, isn't it.

Hey, on another note, I heard all animals coming down from Canada, must be tracked to final destination by roads travelled, etc.

I wish the US would label those animals as Canadian, when they break the seal, and brand the cuts accordingly. Knowing our safety protocols and the highest worldwide standards, consumer confidence would really help our sales!