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on the topic of Abortion

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Lonecowboy

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There have been several on here lately trying to defend abortion- will they try and defend this?

Another employee of Dr. Kermit Gosnell’s “House of Horrors” abortion clinic has entered a guilty plea in the murders of babies born alive at the facility. Steven Massof, a 49-year-old medical school graduate who was never issued a license to practice, pleaded guilty to third-degree murder in the deaths of two babies who were killed by having their spinal cords severed with scissors, reported the Associated Press. “Massof testified to a grand jury that he snipped the spines of more than 100 babies after seeing them breathe, move, or show other signs of life,” according to the AP story.

Massof told the grand jury investigating Gosnell and his employees that severing the spinal cords of viable babies outside their mothers’ wombs was “standard procedure.” The report, issued in January of this year, said that “Gosnell encouraged his staff to kill babies born alive….” As previously reported by The New American, in late October, Adrienne Moton, another of Gosnell’s employees, pleaded guilty to killing at least one baby born alive at the clinic, while a third worker, Sherry West, admitted to administering a lethal dose of painkillers and anesthesia to a 41-year-old woman who had come to the clinic for an abortion. A fourth employee, Lynda Williams, has also been charged in the woman’s death.

The 70-year-old Gosnell, the only licensed physician involved in the abortion clinic’s grisly business, could face the death penalty in the deaths of seven babies, who were killed using the same method employed by Massof. In addition, the elderly doctor is charged in the death of the woman, an immigrant named Karnamaya Mongar.

The 260-page grand jury noted that, according to Massof, “Gosnell taught him and showed the scissors-in-the-neck technique to ‘ensure fetal demise.’ Gosnell’s students parroted his grisly techniques.” In addition to Gosnell and his wife, a total of eight clinic employees have been arrested in the case.

According to LifeSite News, “Massof told investigators that about 40% of the second trimester ‘abortions’ performed by Gosnell were past 24 weeks, at which point the babies would be viable outside the womb. He also said that he believed Gosnell would perform even later term abortions on Sundays, when the rest of the staff were away.” The report added that another clinic worker, Tina Baldwin, “told the investigators that Gosnell once joked about a baby that was writhing as he cut its neck: ‘that’s what you call a chicken with its head cut off.’”While Massof could face life in prison for the two confessed murders, legal experts expected him to receive a reduced sentence for his plea and cooperation in the investigation. Among the charges against Massof that were dropped in exchange for his pleas was theft by deception for billing as a licensed physician.

As reported in another article in The New American, in their initial raid on Gosnell’s clinic, “federal agents discovered, among other horrors, the remains of 45 infants dumped in milk jugs, juice cartons, and pet food containers — all stored in a refrigerator and freezer on the premises. Agents also found jars containing the severed limbs of babies, and conditions they called ‘by far, the worst’ they had ever seen, with blood on the clinic floors, ‘filthy and unsanitary’ surgeries, broken and dirty medical instruments and equipment, along with a ‘stench of urine’ and even cat excrement.”

According to the grand jury report, Gosnell often did not arrive at the clinic until late at night to perform abortions, leaving untrained staff in charge to monitor patients, administer drugs, and perform other functions that required medical training.

In addition, state medical regulators had not inspected the clinic for many years, a revelation that led to the resignations or terminations of seven health department officials, and prompted Pennsylvania Governor Tom Corbett to initiate sweeping changes in how the state supervises the abortion industry — including subjecting abortionists and their clinics to both annual and random inspections.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/9709-another-guilty-plea-in-house-of-horrors-abortion-case
 

Sir Loin

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Lonecowboy

Good post and I will accept your source as factual.

First let me say this “PERSONALLY” I am against abortion but “POLITICALLY” I don’t think any government should be involved in a woman choice to have an abortion.
IMO, this issue is best left up to the people and not handed over to any government.
The only problem I see here is that those woman chose the wrong doctor and/or the government over sit of this doctor failed.
I think the government is just as much at fault as the doctor.

I think there are far better ways to handle abortion then to turn it over to any government.
Fact: You will never stop all abortions no matter what any government does. The best you will ever do is to reduce the number down to an acceptable level.
What would be an acceptable level for you?
SL
 

Steve

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this clinic targeted the poor,..

One of the most shocking revelations came from the grand jury probe, which revealed that “Pennsylvania health officials deliberately chose not to enforce laws to ensure that abortion clinics provide the same level of care as other medical service providers.”

Pennsylvania, under GOP governor Tom Ridge, decided that regulating women’s health clinics was not something they wanted to do, so they effectively de-regulated them, allowing a monster like Gosnell to work undetected for years.

Now comes word that a second clinic he worked in part-time, located in Delaware, may have been run as poorly as the one in Philadelphia:

The owner of Atlantic Women’s Medical Center in Delaware — who employed the West Philadelphia abortion doctor facing murder charges for killing infants who were delivered alive — also owns an abortion clinic in Louisiana that in 2009 was cited for a list of health and safety violations.

And guess what other state refuses to oversee women’s health clinics? Delaware.

Yet Delaware regulators cannot say if Atlantic Women’s Medical Center — where Gosnell worked one day a week for a number of years — suffers from similar health and safety deficiencies because abortion providers are not subject to the kind of routine sanitary and safety inspections that restaurants, beauty salons and tattoo parlors get.

Abortion clinics do not fall under the definition of medical facilities in the state that require routine inspections, like free-standing surgery centers, according to the Delaware Division of Public Health.

it is sad when a tattoo parlor is more stringently regulated and inspected then an abortion clinic..
 

Triangle Bar

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You know this sort of thing shouldn't be that shocking to anyone. They are in the business of murdering the unborn and presumably the unwanted. Does it not undermine their position if a baby can survive their procedure, when they say it's just a lump of cells and not a person? Termination would be their logical next step, no? After all, it is not a very large step to take when you have concluded in your mind that certain stages of life have no value.
 

Sir Loin

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How about the life of sperm and/or egg, has it have value?
Does life start at the point of the production of the sperm and/or the egg?
SL
 

Lonecowboy

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Sir Loin said:
How about the life of sperm and/or egg, has it have value?
Does life start at the point of the production of the sperm and/or the egg?
SL

For something to grow it has to be alive.
The moment the sperm and egg meet there is growth is there not?
Therefore life has begun!
Ironically that is also what God's word says.

Sirloin wrote:

What would be an acceptable level for you?

None!
That is like asking what is an acceptable murder rate!
Yes, even though it is against the law, murders happen, but it doesn't mean that we should tolerate or condone it.
How can we say "God Bless America" and expect him too while at the same time we are condoning/tolerating the murder of these innocent lives?
I realise we will never achieve NONE but we should still shoot for it.
Now a question for you SL or anyone else that wants a go at it:

Why to you suppose they were keeping all of those babies refrigerated or frozen?
 

Sir Loin

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Lonecowboy I posted this message on the wrong thread, sorry for being so slow to respond.
Sl

Good post and I will accept your source as factual.

First let me say this “PERSONALLY” I am against abortion but “POLITICALLY” I don’t think any government should be involved in a woman choice to have an abortion.
IMO, this issue is best left up to the people and not handed over to any government.
The only problem I see here is that those woman chose the wrong doctor and/or the government over sit of this doctor failed.
I think the government is just as much at fault as the doctor.

I think there are far better ways to handle abortion then to turn it over to any government.
Fact: You will never stop all abortions no matter what any government does. The best you will ever do is to reduce the number down to an acceptable level.
What would be an acceptable level for you?
SL
 

Triangle Bar

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Lonecowboy said:
Why to you suppose they were keeping all of those babies refrigerated or frozen?

These murdered innocents are just raw material to them. Undoubtedly they were going to try and harvest stem cells or sell the 'raw product' to someone who would.

I would not want to be in their shoes on judgement day.
 

hypocritexposer

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Triangle Bar said:
Lonecowboy said:
Why to you suppose they were keeping all of those babies refrigerated or frozen?

These murdered innocents are just raw material to them. Undoubtedly they were going to try and harvest stem cells or sell the 'raw product' to someone who would.

I would not want to be in their shoes on judgement day.

do a Google search......"Pepsi aborted fetal cells".....if true it is truly sickening.

link to Bing search:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Pepsi+aborted+fetal+cells&form=MOZSBR&pc=MOZI
 

Sir Loin

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Well I don’t know about the rest of you but I can recognize True Liberal marching orders when I see them.
All this talk about “abortion” , shortly after Nov 2 is a sure sign.
Liberals roll it out every 4 years about this time!
What do you think their motive is?
Could it be to divide the Religious Right from independent thinking Republicans?
Think about it, have you seen any news on abortion in the last 6 months? NO!
Has abortion been a hot issue in the last 3 years? NO!
So why are we discussing it as a political issue now?

I think I need to do a psychological profile on those bring the subject up to see if they are sheeples.

Lonecowboy
Do you consider yourself a Democrat ( here in after “rat” ) or a Republican being lead around by the nose?

SL
 
A

Anonymous

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Sir Loin said:
Lonecowboy

Good post and I will accept your source as factual.

First let me say this “PERSONALLY” I am against abortion but “POLITICALLY” I don’t think any government should be involved in a woman choice to have an abortion.
IMO, this issue is best left up to the people and not handed over to any government.
SL


AMEN- I agree 100%.....Decision should be left to the mother, doctor, and their God...

And definitely not a decision that should be decided by a bunch of rich old grey haired men sitting in D.C. :(
 

Lonecowboy

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Lonecowboy said:
Sir Loin said:
How about the life of sperm and/or egg, has it have value?
Does life start at the point of the production of the sperm and/or the egg?
SL

For something to grow it has to be alive.
The moment the sperm and egg meet there is growth is there not?
Therefore life has begun!
Ironically that is also what God's word says.

Sirloin wrote:

What would be an acceptable level for you?

None!
That is like asking what is an acceptable murder rate!
Yes, even though it is against the law, murders happen, but it doesn't mean that we should tolerate or condone it.
How can we say "God Bless America" and expect him too while at the same time we are condoning/tolerating the murder of these innocent lives?
I realise we will never achieve NONE but we should still shoot for it.
Now a question for you SL or anyone else that wants a go at it:

Why to you suppose they were keeping all of those babies refrigerated or frozen?[/quote]

Sir Loin I answered two of your questions and asked you one in return-
when you have answered it then I will go on to your next question!
 

Steve

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Think about it, have you seen any news on abortion in the last 6 months? NO!
Has abortion been a hot issue in the last 3 years? NO!

in Mississippi they recently had a ballot initiative..

planned parenthood has been in-tangled in scandal and federal/state funding issues..

North Carolina recently set new requirements, some of which has been blocked be the courts..

Gov. John Kasich recently signed into state law House Bill 63, which revises the process of judicial bypass under Ohio’s Parental Consent for Abortion statute.

and that is just a few,..

Abortion has never gone off the front burner as an issue..

I doubt it ever will

as some in the US shift to a policy of liberal abortion laws...
MOSCOW – With a resurgence of religion after the collapse of the communist Soviet Union and declining birth rates, Russia is on a moral crusade to ban abortion.

"Our two main motives are the fact that Russia is dying out

"We cannot forget our faith."

Mizulina's committee has floated a bill to amend Russia's law on health to help reduce the number of abortions in Russia.

Backed by the Russian Orthodox Church, the bill would cap abortions at 12 weeks and impose a waiting period of up to one week from initial consultations.

It also requires women over six weeks pregnant to see the embryo on ultrasound, hear its heartbeat and have counseling to determine how to proceed.


The amendment is guaranteed to pass parliament after it was approved in a critical second of three readings on Oct. 21.

"Despite the long Communist period, it is seen as murder, as a violation of the ten commandments," said Mizulina.

"America is not threatened with extinction, it can afford to be more lenient," Mizulina said.


Russia has the world's highest rate of abortion -- 1.3 million, or 73 per 100 births

The Soviet Union was the first country to legalize abortion in 1920.
 

Steve

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Lonecowboy said:
Why to you suppose they were keeping all of those babies refrigerated or frozen?

if you can stomach the answer.. money...


Opening Lines offers "the highest quality, most affordable, freshest tissue prepared to your specifications and delivered in the quantities you need, when you need it."

Eyes and ears go for $75, and brains for $999. An "intact trunk" fetches $500, a whole liver $150. To evade the law's prohibition, body-parts dealers like Opening Lines offer to lease space in the abortion clinic to "perform the harvesting," as well as to "offset [the] clinic's overhead."

Opening Lines further boasted, "Our daily average case volume exceeds 1500 and we serve clinics across the United States."
http://www.prolife.com/HarvestingAbortedBabies.html

maybe the article should be required reading for those who seek and support late term abortions...
 

Lonecowboy

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Oldtimer said:
Sir Loin said:
Lonecowboy

Good post and I will accept your source as factual.

First let me say this “PERSONALLY” I am against abortion but “POLITICALLY” I don’t think any government should be involved in a woman choice to have an abortion.
IMO, this issue is best left up to the people and not handed over to any government.
SL


AMEN- I agree 100%.....Decision should be left to the mother, doctor, and their God...

And definitely not a decision that should be decided by a bunch of rich old grey haired men sitting in D.C. :(

What about the babies life oldtimer?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
 

okfarmer

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Sir Loin said:
Well I don’t know about the rest of you but I can recognize True Liberal marching orders when I see them.
All this talk about “abortion” , shortly after Nov 2 is a sure sign.
Liberals roll it out every 4 years about this time!
What do you think their motive is?
Could it be to divide the Religious Right from independent thinking Republicans?
Think about it, have you seen any news on abortion in the last 6 months? NO!
Has abortion been a hot issue in the last 3 years? NO!
So why are we discussing it as a political issue now?

I think I need to do a psychological profile on those bring the subject up to see if they are sheeples.

Lonecowboy
Do you consider yourself a Democrat ( here in after “rat” ) or a Republican being lead around by the nose?

SL

Well let's see- what does come about every 4 years? And generally what is discussed to find out candidates moral fibers? Huh- seems pretty legit to me. Is it important- yes. I would question your motives of not wanting to discuss the subject.

Lets separate the flawed platforms from the legitimate.

Would you rather just vote someone in based on looking pretty and sounding smooth? Sounds to me like you have an agenda.
 

Sir Loin

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Lonecowboy

Re:
For something to grow it has to be alive.
True! But sperm are alive also. Haven’t you seen those little buggers swimming around when you have a bull tested?

Re:
The moment the sperm and egg meet there is growth is there not?
Therefore life has begun!
True but life began when sperm and the egg was produced also.

Re:
Ironically that is also what God's word says.
OK, (tong in cheek and fingers crossed )
We are talking about science and politics, why are you bring your religion into it?
It proves nothing! (now hold on a minute before you explode all over me )

Religion can neither be proven nor disproved as it is based on faith and faith is only what you believe it to be.
Religion should plays no part in scientific or political discussion it only confuses the issue and serves no meaningful purpose except to divide those of like mind.
My True Conservative view, but not my personal beliefs.

Re:
Let me know when you land because you are LIS now.
! And where exactly is Utopia! On which planet?

Re:
Why to you suppose they were keeping all of those babies refrigerated or frozen?
That’s a no brainier! To harvest and sell, in part or whole. What’s your point?
SL


Re:
Sir Loin I answered two of your questions and asked you one in return-
when you have answered it then I will go on to your next question!
Sorry, I got tied up with a few personal things and other threads.
SL
 

Martin Jr.

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Sperm and eggs are alive, but cannot sustain life or grow except when united, so can not truly be called life.

And if we talk about Justice, where is the justice for the unborn child? To have the right to kill an unborn child is not a 'Right,' but license to kill.
The Supreme court decision to support abortion was an unjust decision, and not a true law.

Abortion was not proposed to help women, it was to relieve men of their obligations, and to hide their sins. Most women do not choose abortion, but are talked into it by boy friends (and parents) who do not want the obligation.
Organizations like the National Organization of Women have no idea of justice or of democracy.
 

Lonecowboy

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Quote:
Ironically that is also what God's word says.

SIRLOIN WROTE:
OK, (tong in cheek and fingers crossed )
We are talking about science and politics, why are you bring your religion into it?

I didn't bring "religion" into it I brought God's word

It proves nothing! (now hold on a minute before you explode all over me )

Religion can neither be proven nor disproved as it is based on faith and faith is only what you believe it to be.
Religion should plays no part in scientific or political discussion
Your big on setting rules aren't you?
it only confuses the issue and serves no meaningful purpose except to divide those of like mind.

God's word- the Bible- plays a huge factor in both science and politics.
If a person is doing it right, Christ has permeated all areas of your life, including your thought on politics, and especially the topic of abortion!

I think your answers and selective editing serve as a diversion from the original question and don't lead to a good discussion.
 

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