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Pharo Cattle Company Bulls

Seems very similar to the people who cuss Intensive grazing. Most the ones who I've heard cuss it, don't really understand it.
I think that the primary reason that breeder's talk down Intensive Grazing programs is because if one is not adequately set-up for it, it is a LOT of work. Pasture management is workable if you have the physical pastures, and a relatively easy way to rotate your cattle without spending a lot of time to accomplish it. And the WATER! If you have to keep driving cattle to water you are defeating the purpose of rotating the cattle in the first place. Nothing is easy without adequate planning!

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS said:
Seems very similar to the people who cuss Intensive grazing. Most the ones who I've heard cuss it, don't really understand it.
I think that the primary reason that breeder's talk down Intensive Grazing programs is because if one is not adequately set-up for it, it is a LOT of work. Pasture management is workable if you have the physical pastures, and a relatively easy way to rotate your cattle without spending a lot of time to accomplish it. And the WATER! If you have to keep driving cattle to water you are defeating the purpose of rotating the cattle in the first place. Nothing is easy without adequate planning!

DOC HARRIS

Yup!
 
The thing that bugs me about Kit, is he is always shooting down the other seedstock breeders in the country. He always says that everyone is overfeeding their bulls and everyone has to big of cattle. That is a huge generalization. Some are fed to hard and some are to big. If you need to shoot down other people tomake yourself look better or to become successful, then something is wrong.

I think that a 2 to 4 frame cow is to small. Those cattle will finish out with to small of a carcass, an most cattle at that size will give you alot of yield grade 4's because they will beome little butterballs. Now not all, but most of them.

Now saying that, Kit does have some good ideas. We winter graze all winter long, it is alot cheaper than putting it in a bale, hauling that bale home, then hauling it out to feed. Iron and fuel are too expensive for this ranch. But it may not work for everyone. We calve in May and June and have more live calves, no frozen ears, and they don't need good feed, because they calve out on green grass.

I think that a 1300 to 1400 lbs cow is ideal. You will get heavy weaning weights, they will kill at the right weight, and yet they won't eat you out of house and home. This is what works in our enviroment. Ya, some of the cows get bigger than that, but some are also smaller.

As far as feeding corn to cows. I have no problem with that, if corn is cheaper than other feed. I do have a problem with it if you are feeding corn to them to get them into or keep them in condition. Then you probably need to change genetics some.
 
I have a question. What percentage of ranchers have a profitable operation? I've read and been told that the cattle industry is basically a breakeven propostition and that the cow-calf producer is only profitable 3-4 years out of ten. If this is true (and I'm not sure), it seems to me that some attention should be paid to ideas such as rotational grazing, smaller brood cows and wintering cattle on stockpiled forage to increase profitability. This seems especially true if the "modern" cow-calf man (or woman) can't turn a profit.
 
I had an easier winter than most years, many of my "too big" cows didn't see any supplimentary feed until March. It depends on the weather and the feed resources.

To graze all year round it would require me to have more than 4 times the land base I currently have. At current prices that would be over 3 million invested in new land to reduce a feed bill of 20k per year. At 0% interest it would take 150 years to pay back.

With a different management style maybe Pharo Cattle co could raise a lot more pounds of beef and still not have over feed cattle. It would be interesting to see his land base value compared to annual income.
 
Jason said:
I had an easier winter than most years, many of my "too big" cows didn't see any supplimentary feed until March. It depends on the weather and the feed resources.

To graze all year round it would require me to have more than 4 times the land base I currently have. At current prices that would be over 3 million invested in new land to reduce a feed bill of 20k per year. At 0% interest it would take 150 years to pay back.

With a different management style maybe Pharo Cattle co could raise a lot more pounds of beef and still not have over feed cattle. It would be interesting to see his land base value compared to annual income.

Very good point, Jason.
 
It's kind of refreshing to have somebody challenge the status quo I get so sick of the lame old pb breeders lament.
'My cows are too big'
'My bulls are too fat'
'So are everbody elses'
'That's why I do that'

Maybe time to flip that oldie over and play a different tune.
 
I've challenged the overfed bull thing for many years.

I remember taking bulls to Calgary and getting whipped because they were just in good flesh instead of butterball flesh.

Funniest thing was one rancher who took a chance one year and when I talked with him the next year he said that bull was really easy doing. He fed him 5 pounds of oats over the winter and he got plum fat.

Of all the buyers I have had wander the pens, none look at the smallest bulls first. Even one guy from Oregon that was specifically looking for the smaller type bulls went to the biggest bull in the pen and wanted him.

Very few real cattlemen own cattle.
 
Even fewer of them raise purebreds-I know lots of ranchers that can select bulls that suit their operations-they don't just wander into a pen and pick the biggest and the fattest. As for these halter bull sales that dinosaur could get extinct real soon. If pumping cattle full of grain was the be all and end all-Kit Pharo never would of got off the ground now would he. He's maybe walking the fine line between selection and evolution but at least he has the guts to make a stand. There's alot of sheep in the bull raising business unfortunately.
 
Leachmab's -love them or hate them-sure were never boring-we always used to time our delivery trip to Wyoming so we could hit their sale-was always entertaining watching Jim work a crowd-by sheer strength of numbers they did raise some pretty good cattle along the way. Had a great time at the banquet one night introducing my bachelor buddy to Jim's 'buffalo heifer' lol.
 
I had an easier winter than most years, many of my "too big" cows didn't see any supplimentary feed until March. It depends on the weather and the feed resources.

To graze all year round it would require me to have more than 4 times the land base I currently have. At current prices that would be over 3 million invested in new land to reduce a feed bill of 20k per year. At 0% interest it would take 150 years to pay back.

With a different management style maybe Pharo Cattle co could raise a lot more pounds of beef and still not have over feed cattle. It would be interesting to see his land base value compared to annual income.

Jason, while I think you are on target a lot, I don't agree with all you have written. If you were to be accurate about your needing 4 times the land mass to graze year round, you must only have grazing for 25% of the year now. And a cow doesn't eat as many pounds per head during the months her calf is off of her. I know our winter pastures go a lot further than pastures do other months. That one just can't be accurate. I haven't seen your situation either.

And another point is that you have forgotten to deduct the difference in the costs between feeding and wintering on forage. Does that not contribute to the operation? SOME ranches, not all mind you, could be more profitable with less cows, and less winter feeding bill. And life is easier too.

If what you said was correct, then no rancher would ever add land to his/her operation. What about keeping up with inflation too?

Just more to think about. But we could not grow the feed here either to feed cattle for 6 months of the year, without greatly expanding our feed base. And making heavier soils too. :wink:
 
Tap said:
Jason, while I think you are on target a lot, I don't agree with all you have written. If you were to be accurate about your needing 4 times the land mass to graze year round, you must only have grazing for 25% of the year now. And a cow doesn't eat as many pounds per head during the months her calf is off of her. I know our winter pastures go a lot further than pastures do other months. That one just can't be accurate. I haven't seen your situation either.

I can't comment the 4x land mass he used for his area, Tap, but he's not too far off for my neck of the woods. I run on pasture for 4 - 6 months of the year, but bear in mind this pasture has 3 re-growth periods and I rotate quickly. Anything that we'd be swath grazing in the winter is a single growth. Plus you'd still need an emergency supply of hay, in case you ran into a winter like this one, where you have 3 feet of snow laying raw in the field.

So you wouldn't be far off the 4x land base, and about all you'd be saving yourself is some fuel in the tractor. I even looked at some fall grazing strategies for my area, and they didn't pencil out. They certainly saved some labor, which would have been nice, but my butt is already getting middle age spread, so labor saving is the least of my concerns :lol:

Rod
 
Rod you better take an extra day next time your out here-I'll tour you around to some places that are stretching their grazing season even up here.If you get a chance read the new 'Hereford Link'-there's an article on Diamond J ranches-they run along the river just south of Vidal's-they are doing a good job of cutting costs and extending their grazing system-they sell a few hundred of the highest selling yearlings in Canada every fall. Hockey and hunting are way more fun ways to keep the middle age spread back.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Rod you better take an extra day next time your out here-I'll tour you around to some places that are stretching their grazing season even up here.If you get a chance read the new 'Hereford Link'-there's an article on Diamond J ranches-they run along the river just south of Vidal's-they are doing a good job of cutting costs and extending their grazing system-they sell a few hundred of the highest selling yearlings in Canada every fall. Hockey and hunting are way more fun ways to keep the middle age spread back.

:lol: I hear ya there. I'll be over that way in a couple weeks to pick up that bull I bought from Vidals (as long as he semen checks ok. With the way my lucks running this year, I'll have picked the best blank shootin bull in Saskatchewan). However, I won't be able to take an extra day as I'm in middle of calving right now.

I would be interesting in talking to someone about their practical methods of extending grazing, however I do get nervous about applying them over in my area. Ever since Codette Lake was formed, it changed our weather patterns. GENERALLY, we wouldn't have enough snow in December to prevent swath grazing, and actually thought about fencing off all the grain land, and letting them swath graze straw. Little bit of hay supplement and my girls would be happy. However, once every 4 or 5 years or so, we'll get a winter like this one, only it'll come very early, like in November. Then, no matter how much I like to brag about my Shorthorns, they simply won't dig through 2 or 3 feet of snow to get at the straw. So I'd always have to ensure a full winters supply of hay.

I guess in the good years, I'd be able to sell the excess hay and make a little extra that way (could use it this year. 8 weights dropped 15 cents in 2 weeks :( ) So thats definitely something to think about.

Rod
 
Every year here is different. This year the weather was good and I had amazing stubble residue after good crops.

I usually get the cows to stubble Oct 1 and they stay with no suppliment till Jan 1 when they start calving. Some years the stubble is pastured early because of drought, that means no crop and no fall pasture.

In the spring we usually have to hold off grass until almost June 1.

If I were to use a year round grazing system, I would need 160 acres of native grass for each 10 cows, or the right number of tame forage acres and then enough native grass acres to make up the difference.

Currently it is better for me to run some acres as crop land and grow extra feed. If I were to plant more acres to tame forage I would run into a case of too much grass early in the season, but losing it by July/Aug when it is usually very dry here. Native grass here doesn't lose it's value when it browns off, but it only grows a few inches tall. Tame forage will dry off until it is worthless.

Those adding land here are the big outfits or Hutterites or acreages. If I was willing to move to Saskatchewan I could expand but the drawbacks are enough for me to stay put.

There is no way to add land on an agricultural only basis. Those large enough to subsidize land purchases because of enough other income are looking long term land values increasing, or setting up their kids. It just doesn't pay for itself, but land isn't being made anymore, so if you want it you have to buy what is here.
 

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