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Pharos Bull Sale

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
Rainie,

Sorry if I set you off.

I can tell from your post that you got your information from Fry et al.

They are wrong for the most part. His total analysis for his 37 pounds of meat was built from data on exactly 2 animals.

My data came from the originals that did the work. Redman, Doeschut, Theriault, and MSU. And I mean the MSU work from the 80's, not the stuff that Fry quotes that was evaluated by the researchers and misinterpreted by him.

Fry has completely perverted Bonsma's premise.

I can guarantee you I have worked with more linear measuring records than Fry has seen.

I had a chance to work with some of the original data that was collected by Bonsma's colleagues.

The big back end helps a cow, but it hurts a bull. You said you measured bulls, so I addressed that.


It is about growth, it has nothing to do with maintenance, nor efficiency.

Fry's perversion favors fat cows with deep bellies. Bonsma's work did not.

There are numerous inconsistencies between the work that Bonsma did and what Fry promotes.

I've never seen a wild animal maintain constant body condition year round, year in year out, so I'm not convinced that cows should too.

Sorry rainie, I've worked on this deal for 9 years. I get contacted several times a month on this issue. I guess Fry has me there. He started 13 years ago. The guy that taught him how to do it won't work with him anymore because of the way he has perverted the use of linear measuring.

Just never know which researchers and consultants to trust, do we?

Badlands
 
Can you explain this linear measure system?

I have not heard the term applied to cows.

I doubt I would ever measure my cows, a good cow is one that makes money, no matter what profile she fits.
 
DENNY: You know yourself some calves look average at birth and some look like they might turn out to be something. The opposite is also true. Hopefully these New Zealand calves will turn out, if they don't , one trip up the chute, and a sharp knife will fix the problem. BADLANDS: Okay, you've got me confused. Sorry about the chirp remark. I was able to purchase a copy of Bonsma's book. As you know he developed his own breed that would work in the tropics. It's a good read and you have to concentrate when reading it. Now has Gerald misinterpreted his work. What would be the proper way to measure in your estimation. We've got some hardkeeping cows and some easykeeping cows and they sure measure different, so I know that their is definitely something to this.
 
rainie said:
DENNY: You know yourself some calves look average at birth and some look like they might turn out to be something. The opposite is also true. Hopefully these New Zealand calves will turn out, if they don't , one trip up the chute, and a sharp knife will fix the problem. BADLANDS: Okay, you've got me confused. Sorry about the chirp remark. I was able to purchase a copy of Bonsma's book. As you know he developed his own breed that would work in the tropics. It's a good read and you have to concentrate when reading it. Now has Gerald misinterpreted his work. What would be the proper way to measure in your estimation. We've got some hardkeeping cows and some easykeeping cows and they sure measure different, so I know that their is definitely something to this.
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I know also I have cut a bunch at branding time and would have liked to put them back in at weaning.

Did you AI to both of those aussie bulls genex has I do like their look but have never tried them.
 
DENNY: The bulls I A'I. to were New Zealand bloodlines. Pinebank waigroup and Glanworth 130. Stockman Grass Farmer magazine article said that 10 million dollars of semen was sold from Pinebank Waigroup. Seems like a lot but I guess it is possible. Genex Australian bred bulls I'm not sure of as I lent my catalogue to a neighbor. I know the Aussies seem to like CA future Direction. Not sure which Aussie bulls you are referring to.
 
Now has Gerald misinterpreted his work

I imagine you meant to say 'how' instead of 'now'.

Gearld Fry is supposedly also now an expert on linebreeding. But find me some examples of himself linebreeding? He hasn't. He takes other peoples work and runs with it. Be careful -- I listened to him long enough to realize what was going on.

If you want to learn about Linear Measurement then go back to the origianal source and study. If you want to learn linebreeding, find people that have linebred -- for decades.

Where is the great fry herd of cattle that he has developed? I mean developed and not ran across the world buying semen or a bull.
 
Badlands said:
I guess I have only seen 6807 decrease fertility in lines that already had problems.

In lines that didn't already have fertility issues, he didn't decrease it any.

Badlands
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You are fooling yourself if you believe that! My conception rate continues to improve every generation that I get away from the 6807 influence. I will phase out the last bulls this spring carrying a 6807 pedigree.

No one has addressed the poor feet from the 6807's. That is one of the biggest reasons the Australian's were so slow and careful on the importation of any 6807 offspring.
 
Rainie;

Do you have Bonsma's book, or do you have "Man Must Measure"? The chapters were re-arranged in MMM relative to how Bonsma organized the book. I don't have my copy in front of me, but it you find where Bonsma outlined his program, you will see that the measurements were something like #6 or #7 on the list. And his measurements had primarily to do with skin thickness etc. This whole concept of measuring body length and girth happened after he had already formulated his other ideas.

RRoss,

I will take your opinion into account. I think it would be tough to get a real good handle on though. One of the guys that concentrated 6807 had some other founders mixed in the pot that contributed some, I think. I can see how if a person adapted cows, that were accustomed to lower input that 6807 would put one over the edge and into problems, but that would be due to mismatch to the environment, rather than genetic infertility. Good point on the foot issue.

Badlands
 
HandyDandy: What is your opinion of Gerald's curly hair versus straight hair on the poll theory as it relates to semen quality. Also the hair swirls on the belly as a pregnancy detector, and his wide tailhead and narrow tailhead, and the shape and type of hair on the bull's testicles theory. BADLANDS: The book that I have is MAN MUST MEASURE. Could you explain what you feel would be the proper way to measure.
 
rainie said:
HandyDandy: What is your opinion of Gerald's curly hair versus straight hair on the poll theory as it relates to semen quality. Also the hair swirls on the belly as a pregnancy detector, and his wide tailhead and narrow tailhead, and the shape and type of hair on the bull's testicles theory. BADLANDS: The book that I have is MAN MUST MEASURE. Could you explain what you feel would be the proper way to measure.
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Again, those aren't Gearlds ideas, he just read them and started quoting them. I believe there is some truth in what you just stated. though I've never paid attention to hair swirls for pregnancy. If you want to check for pregnancy, then CHECK FOR PREGANCY!

Please realize I'm not saying everything he says is wrong, but how much research has HE done, what has HE done to become the expert? Besides reading (not studying) a book.
 
Those who can do and those who cant teach.

I will take my advice from guys like Sospweed and other successful ranchers before I listen to some jackass talk about hair swirls what a crock.You tell me if you have 250 cows how your going to evalulate pregnancy that way.Just run them thru the chute and sleeve them alot quicker and you get a yes or know answer yes she stays no she go's.We dont preg check but when feeding in the winter you see one standing its a pretty good chance she's open.
 
Badlands: Your statement on how 6807 only decreases fertility on cattle with a predispostion on poor fertiltiy is so wrong it isn't funny. Fertility is a quantitive trait just like weaning and yearling weight. A bull cannot be good on some and terrible on others. It is just being expressed more on the less fertile cattle. There will be exceptions I realize as the bell shape curve will allow outliers in all traits but the average is still the average and that is where the rubber meets the road.

Keep multiplying these kind of cattle it doesn't bother me a bit it just makes for less beef in the supply chain making mine worth more. :wink:
 
handydandy said:
rainie said:
HandyDandy: What is your opinion of Gerald's curly hair versus straight hair on the poll theory as it relates to semen quality. Also the hair swirls on the belly as a pregnancy detector, and his wide tailhead and narrow tailhead, and the shape and type of hair on the bull's testicles theory. BADLANDS: The book that I have is MAN MUST MEASURE. Could you explain what you feel would be the proper way to measure.
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Again, those aren't Gearlds ideas, he just read them and started quoting them. I believe there is some truth in what you just stated. though I've never paid attention to hair swirls for pregnancy. If you want to check for pregnancy, then CHECK FOR PREGANCY!

Please realize I'm not saying everything he says is wrong, but how much research has HE done, what has HE done to become the expert? Besides reading (not studying) a book.
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The book Gearld is quoting and suggest producers read is "Herd Bull Fertility" by James Drayson About the author..."35 years of extensive research in this area, 15,537 bulls of all ages and of 19 different breeds were studied." Buy the book and learn something...high selling price is not necessarily correlated to 'the best bull'! Drayson's 35 years of experience was in private sector reproduction services and Gearld has about as much experience also in reproductive services...in his own reproduction center that his son now runs. Both men "realize that a definite correlation exists between the endocrine glands and the fertility, sub-fertility or sterility of bulls"...and cows!!!! The belly hair swirls as a pregnancy check is related to changes in the endocrine system of a pregnant cow. With experience, it is very reliable...I rarely miss an open cow, but I'm not looking at 250 cows. When it comes to cull and keep decisions, the gloved arm of an experienced preg-checker is very valuable.

Badlands, took me a minute to realize who you were...so no need for us to discuss Gearld and Bonsma again!!! :wink:

I agree that the producers that sold good producing cows because they didn't measure up to one criteria, made a very foolish mistake. I like Tom Lasater's ideas on selecting females...require them to calve at two and bring a good calf to the weaning pen every year thereafter. Sell the bottom end calves and the cows that raised them. After the decision is made to keep a female, don't judge her by the way she looks, but judge her by what she produces.

As much as I like Gearld and have taken much of what he has told me to heart, I like to see proof of something in my herd before I go and make decisions of a financial matter. I think a producer will be much better off in the long run by using Bonsma's adaptation ideas and then concentrating herd genetics through closed herd linebreeding...after finding the optimum base genetics. Don't you agree that reproduction is the most sensitive indicator of adaptation?

RobertMac
 
You know the old rancher system does almost everything the guru's preach but alot cheaper-cut the grassfat drys off at branding and ship them. Sort of the sorry calves at weaning and put the cows that come up and bawl in the shipping pen. Seen some very wealthy successful cull that way for years-no measuring tape needed. Common sense is pretty tough to beat most times.
 
WB,

I suppose the other end of the scale would be that 6807 would add fertility to 315 and 036 lines, or the popular ones of his day Pine Drive Big Sky, Wild Turkey, etc.


Yes, it is a quantitative trait like you said. And because of that, he can add fertility to some, take it away from others, and leave some unaffected. I guess I don't worry too much about the ones he adds fertility to as I stay away from them.


Although EPD don't explain it, certain matings just don't work very well. Most times, "nicks" are over-rated, but they do occur.

While I don't like everything about the program, I haven't seen that Ohlde cattle are infertile on the average. Some might say they don't grow, some might say they don't milk, some might say they are just common, but I very rarely hear anyone say they aren't fertile.

There are about 6-8 other guys around the country that linebreed to him too, and I haven't heard that infertility is an issue for them.

"Fertility" is pretty ambiguous anyway. What is it? Ability to reach puberty early? Ability to conceive to AI on the first cycle? Ability to conceive to a bull early? Or in 45 days? Or in 65 days? Or raise her first calf and breed back? Or raise a "good" calf for 12 years in a row?

Fertility is more about matching the type to the environment than genetics. Put another way, the genetics for too much ..... affect fertility more than genetics for fertility do.

Badlands
 
handydandy: Seems like you have a personal problem with gearld, for whatever reason. That's not my concern however, so I don't want to argue about that. NR : we also culled these bawling cows and the ones that don't raise a good calf.That's a no brainer. My estimation of a good cattleman ( you can get ready to jump on me again if you like) is one who thinks of his grass first and cattle second. I've seen too many "good" cattlemen using grain as a quick fix for hiding their mismanagement of their grass and their genetics. BADLANDS: I would still like to hear your opinion of linear measuring. DENNY: Yes we pregcheck. Seems like some people are scared to learn new things. RobertMac: I've got the Drayson book. I find these hair swirls etc. interesting. What breed of cattle do you have? I've got Black angus and I haven't been able to develop my eye good enough yet to find these swirls all the time. Other colored haircoats, in some bred cows it is really obvious.
 
There are probably no hard fast "rules to ranching" that work every time all the time. I am no fisherman, but ranching is probably a bit like fishing in some ways. You throw out the bait, reel in the hook, sometimes you get a nibble, sometimes you don't. You keep casting because perserverence pays off. Then you get a bite. If you bring it in too slow the fish gets away. If you reel it in too fast, you risk breaking the line. Finesse works best. Be ready to adapt to the situation at hand. :wink:

This linear measuring reminds me of a deal a neighbor got into about twenty-five years ago. Some company had developed a fancy squeeze chute with one side made from vertical and horizonatal rods. These formed "squares" similar to graph paper, much like the grids formed by corral cattle panels. The idea was to put a female bovine in the chute, take a "snapshot" of her with a camera, and then plot her "measurements" on the graph.

All this was before the days of computers, so the information was sent via telephone into a central early-type computer owned by the company. Our neighbor invested $10,000 into one of these marvelous machines, which was quite a lot more money than $10,000 represents today. He set up a free supper and informational meeting at one of the local eating establishments. Quite a few ranchers from all over the country showed up to get in on the ground floor of this totally new concept. It was all basically paterned after Bonsma's studies done in South Africa.

The neighbor envisioned making a small fortune by hauling his machine around to various ranches, and "measuring" heifers so that the ranchers would know which ones to keep for replacements. Alas, we were all just a bunch of skeptics. :( I can still see him in my mind's eye as he stood before the crowd promoting the idea. He said, "I just don't see how any rancher can afford not to do this measuring."

Guess there wasn't a single one of us that thought it to be a necessary part of ranching, and he didn't get a single taker. Even if our neighbor could have found willing participants, it wouldn't have been a paying proposition because it wasn't long before the company involved declared bankruptcy. Our neighbor pulled the contraption out into a treelot where the weeds grew up around it. As far as I know, it is still there, though the ranch has changed ownership through the years. The only thing the neighbor got out of his $10,000 investment was bragging rights to say that he had the first VCR in the whole area.

The old adage comes to mind, "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is." :?
 
"handydandy: Seems like you have a personal problem with gearld, for whatever reason. That's not my concern however, so I don't want to argue about that"

Nope no personal problem with him at all. Just because I tell people to be cautious when dealing with 'experts', I have a personal problem with him? You may have a personal problem jumping to conclusions. I believe he talks out of both sides of his mouth. read and listen to him long enough and you may catch him yourself.

Some of what he says is right but some isn't.
 
Soapweed that story is a bit sad-nothing worse than having a good friend get hung up on a bad idea. Rainie it might surprise you that we were practicing grass management a long time before it became fashionable. Culling the obvious isn't as big a no brainer as you think-or else there's alot of ranchers operating with no brains. BSE made a lot of pretty good outfits into pretty roughshod ones as everybody works through the mess as best we can. I find it funny that Weder and Fry managed to find the only Devon and Angus cattle in the world that can function on grass. Lo and behold they market those genetics lol. I think Weder has more to offer than Gerald Fry-like I've said before you can only take so much reboiled Bonsma before it makes you a bit queasy.
 
I know Gearld Fry and you are not going to find a more humble person. To insinuate that he has forced producers to make bad decisions is simply ridiculous.

Are you people just as cautious when dealing with university 'experts' or input industry 'experts'?

Fact: Beef quality (as in quality grade) has been going down since the 1970s. The industry is headed in the wrong direction and who is leading it?

Rainie: The swirls are related to the endocrine glands and are more prominent in cattle with strong endocrine systems. They are also easier to see in short hair summer coats and more prominent in mid to late pregnancy. I don't see color and breed as relevant. I have a small herd and am more familiar with individual animals than someone with a large herd...it takes practice. Dr. Bonsma would give detailed descriptions of past health events of animals put in the ring with him by simply looking at the animal and seeing what the animal was telling him. It's a shame that this 'trained eye' quality has been largely lost with today's cattlemen.

My breed of cattle: Lasater Beefmasters
 

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