pretty discouraging

[LazyWP]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

Just come up here and take over a forest permit. You pay for every thing up front. This year no one was allowed to turn in before the 1st of June. Supposed to be a 5 month grazing deal, all paid for in advance. As of right now, I think 90% of the cattle are off, and there is no reimbursement for what they paid. There is more grass out there, then any where else around, but because some wet behind the ears college kid decides that it is time to move cattle off, I have to fight fires out on the forest every time a thunder storm rolls through. Guess it would get me so fired up, but the closest forest crew is well over 100 miles away, so they have no response to the fires!!

We are the closest of any of the permittees and we gave up out permit, do to over regulation and lack of common sense.

If you think its all roses, I know of a couple permits for sale.

 

[leanin' H]

If govt fees on grazing lands was the problem that made it unfeasible, then there was a major management problem. Would sure be nice to be able to get in on some of the forest least and govt ground, just isnt any around our area. The rates are half to third of the "going rate" in the areas i know.

Come on out and buy an "easy" BLM/Forest Service permit and show us how it's done! :roll: Every fall the brinks trucks will just roll in stuffed full of cash and dump it out on your front porch! :roll: WAYYYYYYY before some government agency was created to "manage public land" ranchers out here have worked thier asses off taking care of it! For what? A over-zealous college kid from some corn-belt university comes out and trys to show you with a text book why 150 years of running cattle doesn't work? Or a hunting organization decides Elk and Muledeer hunting is more important than feeding my family? Or a motorcycle club has an offroad race through your allotment and cuts 12 fences to build a trail, which you fix until the next bunch of guys try to follow the trail and cut the fence, so you install gates on your own dime for them to throw down? Or a Sage Grouse study group decides 4800 acres of your allotment is prime strutting grounds and simply subtracts it from your lease without any appeals process which gets your permit permanently cut? Or a small fire starts but isn't put out because the BLM gets paid to fight fire, not put em' out and turns into a hundred thousand acre monster and burns up feed for atleast two years and your cattle now go where? Or a bunch of other things i am too tired and p****d off to list. But you just come run cows on these wonderful government leases you think is such a pleasure cruise and see how far ya get. My money says you'll run back to where ya came from praise God on how good you have it! :roll: Next time, don't lip off on a subject you have no idea about please. :roll:

eatbeef,
I did not mean to come across as a pompous butthead. I typed while tired which is dangerous and silly. Please just realize that leasing a government run allotment isnt as much fun as it appears.

H'

 

[eatbeef]

So we dont have the predator problem but the fences, wells, and all other maintenance come along with every lease i got. Gates get left open in our area by people to. I could lose a lease here to, so just because govt takes it for hunting doesnt mean it is different. Fires happen here to, but not to the mangnitude and that is the govt's fault for not using prescribed buring. There are idiots in our area paying over $300 per pair for a 5 month grazing season, now tell me that isnt more that your paying for government ground?

 

[3 M L & C]

So we dont have the predator problem but the fences, wells, and all other maintenance come along with every lease i got. Gates get left open in our area by people to. I could lose a lease here to, so just because govt takes it for hunting doesnt mean it is different. Fires happen here to, but not to the mangnitude and that is the govt's fault for not using prescribed buring. There are idiots in our area paying over $300 per pair for a 5 month grazing season, now tell me that isnt more that your paying for government ground?

The only person you have to worry about making decisions about who goes where on your lease is the guy that owns it. Dealing with anything gov is just a big headache. Also is your time worth anything? Most of that gov lease ground isn't high producing grass I don't believe. I bet most people where you are run a pair on 6 to 8 acres. You could check a whole mess of cows and be doing something else instead of riding a horse all day and still not seing all you cattle. Why do you call people idiots that pay 300 per pair for leasing grass? If your not paying for it what does it matter, they abviosly are not losing money or they wouldn't pay that much. Your complaining about what someone else pays for grass sounds like the guy that goes to a land auction to buy some ground and is pi$$ed because it brought more than he could afford. What did someone else put on here earlier, Free Enterprise? Do you want the owner of the ground to turn that down to rent to you for less?

 

[eatbeef]

I run cows around our home place 6-8, but then we rent a ranch in nebraska were we run 12 acres per pair. And there are forest leases close to the ranch we run in nebraska that are $10 to $12 per acre. That is the point i was making, because going rate in that area is $18 to $20. And the guys that run them leases really like them. I dont know how it is in in the mountains or desert areas and wasnt trying to say its easy, but i know the forest permits in nebraska are almost half of going rate. And i realize that you have to take care of it and anything you build becomes govt property, etc. I shouldnt have called them idiots, sorry about that, you must be one of them. :wink: Everything has just gone crazy and i guess i am on the conservative side and worry about it breaking. There are pastures renting for 65. And the only ones paying it are the ones that are farming to pay for the cows!

 

[LazyWP]

I run cows around our home place 6-8, but then we rent a ranch in nebraska were we run 12 acres per pair. And there are forest leases close to the ranch we run in nebraska that are $10 to $12 per acre. That is the point i was making, because going rate in that area is $18 to $20. And the guys that run them leases really like them. I dont know how it is in in the mountains or desert areas and wasnt trying to say its easy, but i know the forest permits in nebraska are almost half of going rate. And i realize that you have to take care of it and anything you build becomes govt property, etc. I shouldnt have called them idiots, sorry about that, you must be one of them. :wink: Everything has just gone crazy and i guess i am on the conservative side and worry about it breaking. There are pastures renting for 65. And the only ones paying it are the ones that are farming to pay for the cows!

Ok, you tell me where in Nebraska you are leasing a place, cause I grew up around Halsey, where the Nebraska National forest is, I live against Mcelvey, and am quite familiar wit the ground around the forest out at Crawford, so just ell me how well these guys that paid for their lease up front, with a 5 month contract, that got less then 2 months grazing are paying half what you are. Give me some details, and I'll bet I can get you a permit, so you can deal with the public.

 

[3 M L & C]

For the record no I don't pay 300 a pair for grass rent. There are very few farmers that have cows just for fun. Driving a tractor is a lot easier than messing with cows. Just because you think they aren't making money on the cattle dosn't mean they aren't. And again it sound to me like your just whining about what other people do.

 

[eatbeef]

For the record no I don't pay 300 a pair for grass rent. There are very few farmers that have cows just for fun. Driving a tractor is a lot easier than messing with cows. Just because you think they aren't making money on the cattle dosn't mean they aren't. And again it sound to me like your just whining about what other people do.

There are plenty of farmers in our area that have cows and i guaruntee you that they dont have a clue wether their 50 to 100 make a dime. They have them around to mess with in the winter and clean up wastes. Sure am just whining, i made one comment about miss management if the ranch had to be sold and thats sure is whining.

 

[eatbeef]

Ok, you tell me where in Nebraska you are leasing a place, cause I grew up around Halsey, where the Nebraska National forest is, I live against Mcelvey, and am quite familiar wit the ground around the forest out at Crawford, so just ell me how well these guys that paid for their lease up front, with a 5 month contract, that got less then 2 months grazing are paying half what you are. Give me some details, and I'll bet I can get you a permit, so you can deal with the public.

The ranch we are leasing is right around your old stopping grounds. And we are gonna make our 5 month lease there. (By the looks of the weather forcasts though that could still change). June 1 to November 1. Thought we were gonna have to come out early but have caught a couple little rains. Some of the oldtimers in the area have said this year isnt the problem its next year. And there are still cattle on the forest ground around halsey, just talked to a guy monday that still has them there.

 

[eatbeef]

For anybody i offended by my posts, I am sorry. Everybody that responded back must have BLM/Forest permits/Govt ground. And you are still operating and must be good managers because you are still ranching. Didnt mean to say it was easy, nothing comes easy. I understand dealing with the "govt land managers" would not be easy. In my area ranchers are dealing with getting shoved out by farmers sodbusting anything imaginable. Didnt mean to offend anybody, but you know as well as i do "the grass is always greener on the other side".

 

[LazyWP]

Ok, you tell me where in Nebraska you are leasing a place, cause I grew up around Halsey, where the Nebraska National forest is, I live against Mcelvey, and am quite familiar wit the ground around the forest out at Crawford, so just ell me how well these guys that paid for their lease up front, with a 5 month contract, that got less then 2 months grazing are paying half what you are. Give me some details, and I'll bet I can get you a permit, so you can deal with the public.

The ranch we are leasing is right around your old stopping grounds. And we are gonna make our 5 month lease there. (By the looks of the weather forcasts though that could still change). June 1 to November 1. Thought we were gonna have to come out early but have caught a couple little rains. Some of the oldtimers in the area have said this year isnt the problem its next year. And there are still cattle on the forest ground around halsey, just talked to a guy monday that still has them there.

So if you don't make your 5 months, do you get your money back?
No, we don't have forest or BLM ground. The headaches you have to go through, just weren't worth it for us.
Just ask the guy you that is running your cows. If you are on the place I think you are, Dan can tell you stories of people that have given up their permits, for the same reason.

 

[Denny]

For anybody i offended by my posts, I am sorry. Everybody that responded back must have BLM/Forest permits/Govt ground. And you are still operating and must be good managers because you are still ranching. Didnt mean to say it was easy, nothing comes easy. I understand dealing with the "govt land managers" would not be easy. In my area ranchers are dealing with getting shoved out by farmers sodbusting anything imaginable. Didnt mean to offend anybody, but you know as well as i do "the grass is always greener on the other side".

You did'nt offend me. I have a lease from the Mn DNR it's 70 acres of hayground I pay $562 a year rent plus the real estate taxes as if I owned it and I never hear a word from the bosses. Normally I see one of them dureing the year and we have a nice visit and thats it.Some years we get a hundred bales of hay some years 200 rent stays the same.

 

[eatbeef]

So if you don't make your 5 months, do you get your money back?
No, we don't have forest or BLM ground. The headaches you have to go through, just weren't worth it for us.
Just ask the guy you that is running your cows. If you are on the place I think you are, Dan can tell you stories of people that have given up their permits, for the same reason.

Yes, it is in our contract it is to be prorated. Sure is a small world, I didnt even tell you who is running the cows and you already knew the place. LOL. If it wasnt for him it wouldnt work. One hell-of-a guy. Sure seems like when somebody gives one up it dont take long for them to get bought again, and usually its done so quick you dont even know about it. If they opened it up to public bid i would gaurantee it would be alot higher price though.

 

[leanin' H]

Eatbeef, no offense meant from me either. The thing to remember about an allottment from the government versus a private lease is the headaches caused by the administrator. Usually on a private lease, you make an agreement and you have almost full control of the leased ground. Not always, but usually. With the fed's they have their fingers in everything. :roll: I'd never allow a motorcycle race across my own ground and i used to desert race motorcycles. But the BLM gave it's blessing and we have to live with the consequences. Didn't even have an opportunity to voice our displeasure. Had a lady ranger ride her 4 wheeler into a pasture we had put cattle into 5 weeks earlier on a range tour. As we opened the gate she was completely amazed at how beautiful the grass and cattle looked and even commented that we were doing a "perfect" job of managing the resource. Then we rode over the hill a mile away and crossed the creek. Suddenly we were told that these cows had to be moved immediately as the grass along the creek was under 2.5 inches and we were doing irrepairable harm to the riapairing area. Never been a fish in that foot wide creek for better than 150 years but we had to leave a pasture with belly deep grass just incase. :???: All i can say is thank God the BLM wasn't around when the Grand Canyon started out or they would of tried to stop the erosion and blamed it on cattle! :roll: Government leases are less money than private ground. That is a fact. But when you factor in the stupidity, the heartburn, the not-so-hidden agendas, the pubilc access and the cost in fences, troughs, water developements, ect. i really believe NOBODY would participate if they cost the same as a private lease with more control. That is pretty sad to say, but it's sure true. A BLM/Forest service ranger with common sense, ranching in thier background and the ablility to work with folks are pretty rare these days. More and more you deal with young, bright-eyed fresh from college kids who are out to save the world from the ignorant, hardheaded ranchers trying to destroy it. And the only ones more hard core against ranching, logging, mining, ect than them are the folks that are in charge above them. The title of this post was "pretty discouraging" and that is sure true when you deal with the government.


Now with all that being said, we still get to participate in the greatest vocation on this planet! We RANCH! Beats living in an ampartment in NY, riding the subway to a cubicle everyday. I might die poor. I may die broke. I may get discouraged from time to time. But everytime i throw a leg over a horse or scatter a hay bale or stretch a wire or watch a calf kick and buck or see a sunset or listen to the crickets, i fully understand how blessed i am!!! I hope ya'll do as well! I may die poor, but i'll die proud and free. :wink:

 

[LazyWP]

So if you don't make your 5 months, do you get your money back?
No, we don't have forest or BLM ground. The headaches you have to go through, just weren't worth it for us.
Just ask the guy you that is running your cows. If you are on the place I think you are, Dan can tell you stories of people that have given up their permits, for the same reason.

Yes, it is in our contract it is to be prorated. Sure is a small world, I didnt even tell you who is running the cows and you already knew the place. LOL. If it wasnt for him it wouldnt work. One hell-of-a guy. Sure seems like when somebody gives one up it dont take long for them to get bought again, and usually its done so quick you dont even know about it. If they opened it up to public bid i would gaurantee it would be alot higher price though.

I've known Dan for dang near 45 years. Started kindergarten together, and still talk to him a couple times a week. Wasn't hard to figure out when you said close to Halsey. There are only so many ranches that take in cattle, and dang few of them are from Kansas.
I wasn't trying to start a fight either. I just have way to many friends that have to deal with Forest permits, that are getting totally raped. Like H said, belly deep grass in part of the pasture, but around the windmill it was "to short" so they have to take their cows out, and I have to go fight fires, because there is to much fuel to burn.
I might get to meet you this fall. Dan said he needs my dogs when he comes off of the river.

 

[Faster horses]

We never had a forest permit, never wanted one. Our neighbor in SW
Montana had one, he was an older guy and a great neighbor and generally
all-around good feller. The forest service guys used to come and get him
in the afternoon, didn't matter what he was doing, and made him go move
his cows. Sometimes he was on a tractor putting up hay and they'd make
him leave it and move his cows. Couldn't wait til morning when it made
way more sense.

We do have a BLM lease, but we take care of it and we've never had an
ounce of trouble with BLM personnell. Now, with that being said, a good
friend in Wyoming had a lot of BLM lease. One year there was a pretty
good-sized fire on his place and on the BLM ground also. Not long after the
fire, a BLM guy came out to measure the grass in that pasture. Our friend
said, "what grass? There was a fire there and there isn't any grass."

The BLM feller allowed as how he had to go measure it anyway. Now this
was at least 40 miles from town. Soon he came back through the ranch
headquarters and said he was going back to town, he couldn't measure the
grass. "Yea," our friend said, "I told you there wasn't any grass out there
to measure."

The BLM feller told him, "No, that's not it. I forgot my scissors. I'll be back." :shock:

I have to tell you, this same friend, who had a good grass ranch, but 1/2 of
it was BLLM (14,000 deeded, 14,000 BLM) and he sold that place because
of having to put up with the BLM guys and all the rumors of what the
BLM planned to do in the future.

 

[eatbeef]

I might get to meet you this fall. Dan said he needs my dogs when he comes off of the river

I will look forward to it. And yes dogs would probably help, them cows we have on the river are a different breed! The river,then tracks,then highway, is not a good combo. Last year we just drove to a neighbors and loaded out. And the comment about from Kansas, my spread is in kansas but i will always be from Nebraska and "Bleed Red"! Even if you cant make it to help you could always just meet us at the bar later. :lol:

 

[eatbeef]

Guess there is always a kicker when the price looks to good to be true, and in this case it's the govt.

 

[mrj]

Seems fairly accurate to say that most people who NOT among those who Federal government can "help", then expect a 'thank you' vote in return are NOT going to get fair treatment from government!

Aren't most of problems for ag producers a result of first, government overzealous regulation, then weather, neither of which we are able to control at this point in time???

Possibly, if we would work TOGETHER first to correct the Government 'problem', we could more amicably sort out the differences among ag producers after government is a little more in line with our Constitution. Worth a try, IMO.

mrj

 

[Anonymous]

What a Shame
Closing Range

By Dave Skinner, 08-29-12
Last week, after months of rumors, news came that American Prairie Foundation (APF) will buy the so-called South Ranch in Valley County from Page Whitham Land and Cattle, giving the foundation control over another 150,000 acres.
What a shame … but that's capitalism, right?

Not quite. In case you don't already know, APF is a land trust established in 2001 by the World Wildlife Fund. Its mission is buy up ranches in order to create a multi-million-acre buffalo park in Northeast Montana, using the C.M. Russell (CMR) refuge as an anchor.

Previously, APF bought 12 ranches in south Phillips County controlling 121,000 mostly-public acres, which has area producers, as County Commissioner Leslie Robinson put it to me, "worried about losing our community."

It's obvious why APF sought the South Ranch. I've been there, most recently last spring. Southwest of Glasgow in the Larb Hills next to the CMR, at the right times of year it's just wonderful, an emerald sea of grass. At the wrong times, it can be, um, heck.

Geographically, the South Ranch fits APF's agenda perfectly, controlling a huge block of BLM land clear from the CMR to the Milk River. Across the Milk north of Hinsdale are the Bitter Creek proposed wilderness and Canada's Grasslands National Park, which APF hopes to "link" directly with the CMR.

Sadly, it's equally obvious why APF got the South Ranch. Steve Page felt it necessary to write an open letter explaining the decision to sell. Among other things, he discussed the incremental loss and eventual termination of grazing rights on the CMR over time, including increases in fees from $1.35 to over $23 per animal unit month.

Coupled with other fee increases on state lands, political uncertainties at both the state and federal level, plus past (and likely future) bad experiences with the courts – "our South Ranch no longer provides viable opportunity for future ranching generations and it is not without emotion that we have chosen to sell."

While APF prefers to pose as a "private" group restoring bison, and is paying property taxes, as a nonprofit APF has critical, even unfair, advantages over every other genuinely private purchaser.

First, APF pays no income taxes, even if profitable – and APF is supported by wealthy "benefactors." More important, APF's wealthy "benefactors" get a big "charitable" tax break on their donations as well. Every dollar given to APF is effectively worth 35 percent more than if the same dollar went to buy a privately held ranch. There's no way any private, "real" rancher could match the money APF can afford to offer.

Who are these benefactors? My favorite is candy tycoon Forrest Mars, Jr., who has given at least $400,000 (brother John Mars has given over $5 million) to APF.

In roughly 2004, Mars bought the Diamond Cross, a split-estate ranch on the Tongue River. But the subsurface mineral rights (coalbed methane) were leased by Pinnacle Gas Resources. Mars sued to block Pinnacle from drilling, and lost.

In the meantime, Mars was secretly bankrolling the Northern Plains Resource Council's litigation against the Tongue River Railroad. When Mars lost faith in NPRC's ability to permanently block construction, he jumped ship, buying a one-third share in the railroad with the condition it not be built through his ranch. That's not real beneficent or benevolent, is it?

As for the idea that APF's "private" project will stay private, email records demanded by Congress from the Department of Interior a couple of years ago show otherwise. A World Wildlife Fund staffer seeking Land and Water Conservation Fund priority status wrote that funding a 3.5-million-acre reserve "could range from $30M to $300M [million]." In short, APF hoped to "flip" its holdings to the federal government for a park the instant the funds become available – and probably still does. They can probably afford to wait, as long as it takes.

Faced with all that, is it any wonder Mr. Page and his family decided to get the heck out sooner rather than later? No, and that's the real shame.

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/what_a_shame/29430/

Here is an article with more explanation of how these organizations operate...