Raising Bulls

[gcreekrch]

Every herd has a top 10%, regardless of quality. If you raise a bull calf from one of your top cows and a GOOD quality bull, you will improve your herd as a whole.

Knowing your cowherd, acceptable calving ease, better than average weaning and yearling weight is all we shoot for. Essentially, we are raising females to put back in the herd. For some reason the steers seem to look after themselves. :wink:

Personally, I would like to see a bull mature at 16-1700 lbs and last for years. It isn't how big they get, it's how quick they get big. :wink:

I have also found a bull's dollar value doesn't have much to do with their lifetime breeding value.

BRG, good sales pitch, someone who would keep a bull calf from a prolapse, bad bagged, long toed cow deserves everthing they asked for. If a person isn't careful you can even buy that kind. :wink:

 

[BRG]

Every herd has a top 10%, regardless of quality. If you raise a bull calf from one of your top cows and a GOOD quality bull, you will improve your herd as a whole.

Knowing your cowherd, acceptable calving ease, better than average weaning and yearling weight is all we shoot for. Essentially, we are raising females to put back in the herd. For some reason the steers seem to look after themselves. :wink:

Personally, I would like to see a bull mature at 16-1700 lbs and last for years. It isn't how big they get, it's how quick they get big. :wink:

I have also found a bull's dollar value doesn't have much to do with their lifetime breeding value.

BRG, good sales pitch, someone who would keep a bull calf from a prolapse, bad bagged, long toed cow deserves everthing they asked for. If a person isn't careful you can even buy that kind. :wink:

That is why I said a buy from a responsible seed stock supplier.

Like I said, it will work for some commercial ranchers, but for most it doesn't.

 

[Larrry]

The thing that some people forget is that the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence so they try to get in the bull business Then when the bottom falls out of the bull market some are left wonderin what they got themsleves into.

It can be done, but it takes devotion

 

[Denny]

If you keep and raise your own heifers then you should have enough faith to do the same with your bull calves.

 

[BRG]

If you keep and raise your own heifers then you should have enough faith to do the same with your bull calves.

Yes, but the difference is, you might get 10 or 12 calves total out of your heifers, but you should get 25 to 30 a year out of your bulls.

 

[gcreekrch]

If you keep and raise your own heifers then you should have enough faith to do the same with your bull calves.

What kind of a bull salesman are you? :lol: :lol:

 

[Denny]

If you keep and raise your own heifers then you should have enough faith to do the same with your bull calves.

Yes, but the difference is, you might get 10 or 12 calves total out of your heifers, but you should get 25 to 30 a year out of your bulls.

Yes but your keeping 20 to 30 heifers for each bull used. Don't get me wrong I like selling bulls I just think like a commercial man who is normally on a limited budget. Just because someone pay's $5000 to $10,000 for a bull does'nt mean he's making progress. The highest produceing herd of commercial cows here has normally bought the economically priced bulls at local sales. In the end nutrition trumps genetics.

 

[Denny]

If you keep and raise your own heifers then you should have enough faith to do the same with your bull calves.

What kind of a bull salesman are you? :lol: :lol:

A Honest one. There's know silver bullet when buying a bull. Not to bash any bull here but the Rage lately has Been Final Answer I used that bull years ago ai and if that was progress I'll pass.Of course I'm happy with a $2000 sale average also go figure.

 

[katrina]

If you keep and raise your own heifers then you should have enough faith to do the same with your bull calves.

Yes, but the difference is, you might get 10 or 12 calves total out of your heifers, but you should get 25 to 30 a year out of your bulls.

Yes but your keeping 20 to 30 heifers for each bull used. Don't get me wrong I like selling bulls I just think like a commercial man who is normally on a limited budget. Just because someone pay's $5000 to $10,000 for a bull does'nt mean he's making progress. The highest produceing herd of commercial cows here has normally bought the economically priced bulls at local sales. In the end nutrition trumps genetics.

:clap:

:agree:

 

[RSL]

We AI and we buy bulls and we don't keep our own. The reasons for us are that I am not willing to do the work of weighing calves at birth, ultrasounding, etc, but I am also not willing to use a bull that hasn't had all that work put into him.
It is getting harder all the time to find cattle that are better than what we have at home and that fit what we are doing which for most intents in Canada is pretty far out there. We have often considered keeping bulls, but the above stuff has always triggered us not too.
Although I do get mad pretty fast when someone tries to sell me a bull that looks nice with no other qualifiers and I know that I cut nuts out of a lot better steers.
And for the record, we are very particular about using reputable seedstock suppliers.

 

[katrina]

We AI and we buy bulls and we don't keep our own. The reasons for us are that I am not willing to do the work of weighing calves at birth, ultrasounding, etc, but I am also not willing to use a bull that hasn't had all that work put into him.
It is getting harder all the time to find cattle that are better than what we have at home and that fit what we are doing which for most intents in Canada is pretty far out there. We have often considered keeping bulls, but the above stuff has always triggered us not too.
Although I do get mad pretty fast when someone tries to sell me a bull that looks nice with no other qualifiers and I know that I cut nuts out of a lot better steers.
And for the record, we are very particular about using reputable seedstock suppliers.

Can I be devils advocate for a minute? retty:

If you raise your own bulls why do you think you need to weigh and ultrasound for your own bulls?
If you raise your own cows/hiefiers, you know what kind of doing they are. birthweight, temperment, and weaning weight right? Now if you raise your own bulls you know birthweight, temperment, weaning weight right? Kinda a no brainer right?? Once you cull for the bad charectoristic(sp) you don't want, and every year it gets easier... The stress of being a cattle producer just got easier. Plus say you have an AIed bull you raised and you don't like him for what ever the reason... He's easy to sell because you don't have that much money into him... And clean up is easy...

 

[eatbeef]

Can I be devils advocate for a minute?

If you raise your own bulls why do you think you need to weigh and ultrasound for your own bulls?
If you raise your own cows/hiefiers, you know what kind of doing they are. birthweight, temperment, and weaning weight right? Now if you raise your own bulls you know birthweight, temperment, weaning weight right? Kinda a no brainer right?? Once you cull for the bad charectoristic(sp) you don't want, and every year it gets easier... The stress of being a cattle producer just got easier. Plus say you have an AIed bull you raised and you don't like him for what ever the reason... He's easy to sell because you don't have that much money into him... And clean up is easy...

Alot more needs to be considered than just birth weight, temperment, and weaning weight. We as beef producers are producing food to put on a table not just pounds at weaning. With todays tight margins ultrasounding is a no brainer. How can you afford not to have that information. And gene testing is probably gonna be the next fad, we will find out if it will pay off with individual test being $100 or more. Your bull battery is half your herd. A hiefer will only have the effect of 10 to 15 calves over her life a bull will have an effect on 100 to 150 calves over his life.

 

[Faster horses]

We AI and we buy bulls and we don't keep our own. The reasons for us are that I am not willing to do the work of weighing calves at birth, ultrasounding, etc, but I am also not willing to use a bull that hasn't had all that work put into him.
It is getting harder all the time to find cattle that are better than what we have at home and that fit what we are doing which for most intents in Canada is pretty far out there. We have often considered keeping bulls, but the above stuff has always triggered us not too.
Although I do get mad pretty fast when someone tries to sell me a bull that looks nice with no other qualifiers and I know that I cut nuts out of a lot better steers.
And for the record, we are very particular about using reputable seedstock suppliers.

One thing I've observed with our own herd. It's easier to get to the place you
want to be, than it is to stay there.

 

[katrina]

Can I be devils advocate for a minute?

If you raise your own bulls why do you think you need to weigh and ultrasound for your own bulls?
If you raise your own cows/hiefiers, you know what kind of doing they are. birthweight, temperment, and weaning weight right? Now if you raise your own bulls you know birthweight, temperment, weaning weight right? Kinda a no brainer right?? Once you cull for the bad charectoristic(sp) you don't want, and every year it gets easier... The stress of being a cattle producer just got easier. Plus say you have an AIed bull you raised and you don't like him for what ever the reason... He's easy to sell because you don't have that much money into him... And clean up is easy...

Alot more needs to be considered than just birth weight, temperment, and weaning weight. We as beef producers are producing food to put on a table not just pounds at weaning. With todays tight margins ultrasounding is a no brainer. How can you afford not to have that information. And gene testing is probably gonna be the next fad, we will find out if it will pay off with individual test being $100 or more. Your bull battery is half your herd. A hiefer will only have the effect of 10 to 15 calves over her life a bull will have an effect on 100 to 150 calves over his life.

I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree... :tiphat:

 

[Faster horses]

If you keep and raise your own heifers then you should have enough faith to do the same with your bull calves.

Yes, but the difference is, you might get 10 or 12 calves total out of your heifers, but you should get 25 to 30 a year out of your bulls.

Yes but your keeping 20 to 30 heifers for each bull used. Don't get me wrong I like selling bulls I just think like a commercial man who is normally on a limited budget. Just because someone pay's $5000 to $10,000 for a bull does'nt mean he's making progress. The highest produceing herd of commercial cows here has normally bought the economically priced bulls at local sales. In the end nutrition trumps genetics.

This thread reminds me of what Larry Leonhardt told me long ago. The outliers
(bulls) won't throw back to themselves, they will throw back to the average
of that line of cattle. He will tell you he tried buying the best bulls at the test
stations and they never reproduced to themselves (top weaning, top yearling';
top gainer; whatever) and it just about put him out of the cow business. That's
why he bred a son to his mother and got his foundation bull, which he called
Shoshone ECHO. Larry probably knows as much or more about Angus genetics
than anyone in the USA.
He says you can buy the middle out of a cowherd and do just
as well as buying the top sellers. I know we could never afford the top, we
always bought the middle and it worked for us. Of course we were looking
at building a cowherd and the steer calves we figured were by-products.
Our cows were getting too big for the country we run in and we turned that
around by going back to older genetics. You know, those cattle in the
70-80's had some good genetics AND gainability.

I also remember an article where the writer had interviewed several
of the Pioneer breeders about their cattle. When they asked Charlie Cook
about what bull he and Pat Goggins thought was the besy bull they
ever bought, Charlie replied, "Right Time". I thought that was most
interesting, when you think about all the bulls that have come through
the Vermillion outfit. Right Time has stood the test of time, and he's
now an old bull.

FWIW

 

[Angus 62]

My father started raising bulls in 1947 so I've seen a lot of things come and go. There is plenty of data that says weaning weights nationally in COMMERCIAL herds have been flat for a long time. So what are you really getting for more and more money spent on bulls? It is likely that many herds have topped out on growth given the available resources. How many 800-900 pound steers are folks going to raise of of droughted out pastures?

If you are a good commercial cattleman you are fully capable of raising bulls that will do the same or in some cases better than you can buy. You know your cows and the ones that have done a great job over time. Why wouldn't you think a son out of her wouldn't improve your herd as much or more then a graduate from the Bull of the Month School?

 

[katrina]

My father started raising bulls in 1947 so I've seen a lot of things come and go. There is plenty of data that says weaning weights nationally in COMMERCIAL herds have been flat for a long time. So what are you really getting for more and more money spent on bulls? It is likely that many herds have topped out on growth given the available resources. How many 800-900 pound steers are folks going to raise of of droughted out pastures?

If you are a good commercial cattleman you are fully capable of raising bulls that will do the same or in some cases better than you can buy. You know your cows and the ones that have done a great job over time. Why wouldn't you think a son out of her wouldn't improve your herd as much or more then a graduate from the Bull of the Month School?

:nod:

 

[gcreekrch]

I guess some folks just like to use numbers that are meaningless to me and most order buyers.

Give a cowman a bull's BW, current weight and date of birth and he'll tell you if the bull is any good. :wink:

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I raise most of my own bulls. I buy usually one papered bull a year to multiply on some of my home raised Purebred but not papered cows. I started with 45 reg hfrs . I breed about 80 cows and save the bull calves at branding and cull at weaning and again a couple times through the winter and again at semen check time.Last winter I took about 30 down to 12. One lost out on temperament as he was entering the chute for semen check.
The bulls I cull are still high valued steers, I usually have a market for a few bulls.
The bulls I buy are usually bulls I like that I feel will fit my program usually more out of the middle of the sale although a year ago I bought the lead off bull at Merit Cattle Company. Of course I' don't usually look for the top performers as I was calving ease, moderate frame, easy doing cattle.
Seems strange but I used Rainmaker and Wye bred bulls in the late 90's and in Canada they seem to be the rage in some circles.

 

[GM88]

Give a cowman a bull's BW, current weight and date of birth and he'll tell you if the bull is any good.

:agree:

I guess some folks just like to use numbers that are meaningless to me and most order buyers.

Bull buying or AIing by numbers alone will ruin a cow herd as fast as anything. Keeping the best calves out of your own herd that worked under your management have as good of upside as buying out of a completely different program.